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GigaBowserX;n2333981 said:
As far as I could tell in the little I played of KF1, there are still servers up and running and people who play on them, but I'm sure it's not nearly as many as currently play KF2. I did like some aspects of KF1 - starting out with just the pistol instead of a perk weapon was a nice touch, I feel. But yes, having only one type of boss, very dated graphics, and stiff gameplay just gets to be pretty grating after a while. I wonder what it was like to play KF1 in its heyday? Must've been pretty fun.

KF1 was a good time(currently have 1041 hours according to steam), but its difficulty simply works differently than KF2's. In KF2 you generally have to deal with fast zeds that are easy to kill and deal little damage. In KF1 they're generally slower but the hitbox mechanics make them tougher(head hitbox isn't necessarily where their visible head is) and their damage was higher. On top of all that KF1 had harsher movement speed penalties for having lower health, so one gorefast swing of 60+ damage is nearly a death sentence. In KF2 your team slowly dies as they get body-blocked or chipped down without any external healing one by one but in KF1 you're probably done for if one person makes a significant enough mistake on higher difficulties.

Nevertheless a series of discoveries allowed players to solo kill 6p HoE Scrakes and Fleshpounds if you gave them the time, space, and trust to pull it off. These techniques enabled valid camping strategies where no zed could ever break the line as long as everyone played skillfully enough and had the stamina to keep it up through the entire game. If camping wasn't your style, kiting was even more effective. Since zeds never teleport after spawning you can leg it while keeping them in your six until you have grouped all of them behind you and whittle their numbers down slowly but safely(new spawns could appear in front of you so don't let too many spawn at once!). Problem was kiting was limited to zerk/medic and the two strategies did not mesh well together so if the kiting players brought their mob to the camping players the influx of zeds would wipe them out.

Overall KF1 required you to learn a ton of small tricks to perform with the best players but if you managed to amass enough skill you could bring the worst pub teams back from the brink as the last player standing of their dreams. After 1036 hours in KF2 I have yet to amass enough skill to reliably overcome one or two bad players in a match- carrying a bad team is much harder now despite the game being overall easier. Being able to sprint away from everything forever really breaks any threat the zeds could have, unlike in KF1 where a raging scrake was guaranteed to reach you in under 10 seconds and you had to know what to do about it or die like a scrub. Learning to shoot the air above a gorefast's left shoulder to get the headshot was not intuitive and took a long time to discover but once you did you'd blow people's minds with how easily you could dispatch of a dozen of them and it felt good to master skills that people valued that much and could make a real difference at the same time.

Granted KF2 has a lot of improvements but the devs stated they were not making KF1 HD with it and that caused a lot of people to leave when it turned out to be true. KF2 doesn't feel like a good sequel to KF1 because it doesn't improve on the first game in all areas, only some of them. That said KF2 has grown to be larger than KF1 so they must've done something right, even if it did piss off a lot of the old schoolers.

Gee whiz I really ranted like an old man on this one.
 
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pie1055;n2334012 said:
KF1 was a good time(currently have 1041 hours according to steam), but its difficulty simply works differently than KF2's. In KF2 you generally have to deal with fast zeds that are easy to kill and deal little damage. In KF1 they're generally slower but the hitbox mechanics make them tougher(head hitbox isn't necessarily where their visible head is) and their damage was higher. On top of all that KF1 had harsher movement speed penalties for having lower health, so one gorefast swing of 60+ damage is nearly a death sentence. In KF2 your team slowly dies as they get body-blocked or chipped down without any external healing one by one but in KF1 you're probably done for if one person makes a significant enough mistake on higher difficulties.

Nevertheless a series of discoveries allowed players to solo kill 6p HoE Scrakes and Fleshpounds if you gave them the time, space, and trust to pull it off. These techniques enabled valid camping strategies where no zed could ever break the line as long as everyone played skillfully enough and had the stamina to keep it up through the entire game. If camping wasn't your style, kiting was even more effective. Since zeds never teleport after spawning you can leg it while keeping them in your six until you have grouped all of them behind you and whittle their numbers down slowly but safely(new spawns could appear in front of you so don't let too many spawn at once!). Problem was kiting was limited to zerk/medic and the two strategies did not mesh well together so if the kiting players brought their mob to the camping players the influx of zeds would wipe them out.

Overall KF1 required you to learn a ton of small tricks to perform with the best players but if you managed to amass enough skill you could bring the worst pub teams back from the brink as the last player standing of their dreams. After 1036 hours in KF2 I have yet to amass enough skill to reliably overcome one or two bad players in a match- carrying a bad team is much harder now despite the game being overall easier. Being able to sprint away from everything forever really breaks any threat the zeds could have, unlike in KF1 where a raging scrake was guaranteed to reach you in under 10 seconds and you had to know what to do about it or die like a scrub. Learning to shoot the air above a gorefast's left shoulder to get the headshot was not intuitive and took a long time to discover but once you did you'd blow people's minds with how easily you could dispatch of a dozen of them and it felt good to master skills that people valued that much and could make a real difference at the same time.

Granted KF2 has a lot of improvements but the devs stated they were not making KF1 HD with it and that caused a lot of people to leave when it turned out to be true. KF2 doesn't feel like a good sequel to KF1 because it doesn't improve on the first game in all areas, only some of them. That said KF2 has grown to be larger than KF1 so they must've done something right, even if it did piss off a lot of the old schoolers.

Gee whiz I really ranted like an old man on this one.

Haha that's okay, everyone needs a good rant sometimes. :) That's a good snapshot of what KF1 must've been like. Sounds like it was very rewarding to learn those tricks that you talked about. I sometimes wish that KF2 had more skill involved than simply "sprint and hope the fleshpounds and scrakes don't catch up to you," but there is definitely some strategy that comes into play. For example, you definitely have to learn about the enrage mechanics that the bigger zeds have, and when/when not to trigger those. You have to be able to prioritize which of the trash is going to be the biggest threat at any given moment so that you can take them out first, that kind of thing. Anyway, it's enough to keep me coming back, at least.
 
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GigaBowserX;n2334032 said:
Haha that's okay, everyone needs a good rant sometimes. :) That's a good snapshot of what KF1 must've been like. Sounds like it was very rewarding to learn those tricks that you talked about. I sometimes wish that KF2 had more skill involved than simply "sprint and hope the fleshpounds and scrakes don't catch up to you," but there is definitely some strategy that comes into play. For example, you definitely have to learn about the enrage mechanics that the bigger zeds have, and when/when not to trigger those. You have to be able to prioritize which of the trash is going to be the biggest threat at any given moment so that you can take them out first, that kind of thing. Anyway, it's enough to keep me coming back, at least.

Unfortunately there's no way to avoid enraging a fleshpound in KF2 so you kinda gotta just dps them down. But overall TWI have done a great job listening to feedback with KF2 and it has gotten lot better over the years, even bringing back some of the KF1 fans. Sure people like to ***** and moan about the resistance system but it wasn't around all that long before TWI removed it more or less completely. It does stand to reason that with all the fan outcry against $10 weapons TWI may yet change the plan with them before they go live.
 
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As a long time fan the game it's a bit shocking to see the change. But I understand it, the game needs to stay profitable. And I rather see it alive this way then abandoned.

However I do not agree with the pricing or the package of the DLC weapons.

It need to be cheaper and there needs to be options for those that don't want the skins. That's my issues with it all and I hope TWI take a look into it, because I don't think I'll buy any DLC weapons as they are right now.

Regards
DreaderVII
 
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pie1055;n2334043 said:
Unfortunately there's no way to avoid enraging a fleshpound in KF2 so you kinda gotta just dps them down. But overall TWI have done a great job listening to feedback with KF2 and it has gotten lot better over the years, even bringing back some of the KF1 fans. Sure people like to ***** and moan about the resistance system but it wasn't around all that long before TWI removed it more or less completely. It does stand to reason that with all the fan outcry against $10 weapons TWI may yet change the plan with them before they go live.

If I'm not mistaken, there WERE resistances in the first game as well. It was very simple though... Like Fleshpounds were more vulnerable to explosives while Scrakes were more resistant. I also think sirens were more vulnerable to crossbows. And that was pretty much it?
 
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Aleflippy;n2334060 said:
If I'm not mistaken, there WERE resistances in the first game as well. It was very simple though... Like Fleshpounds were more vulnerable to explosives while Scrakes were more resistant. I also think sirens were more vulnerable to crossbows. And that was pretty much it?

Just to clarify, when I mentioned the resistance system I was referring to the one implemented during KF2's early access period that affected almost all zeds and weapons.

In KF1, Fleshpounds had a complex series of resistances and weaknesses based on damagetype, headshot multiplier, and difficulty, even having different multipliers for different types of explosives. Scrakes and Sirens never had any resistances or weaknesses to anything and Husks resisted the flamethrower and its DoT but not any other fire damage source or DoT caused by other forms of fire. Patriarch resisted pipe bombs but only when more than one hit him within a short span of time. Bloats were weak to fire but just like the Husk that only applied to the flamethrower, etc.

The vulnerabilities and resistances were used to balance certain weapon-to-zed kill times in KF1 and were not a water-beats-fire game-wide dynamic. The only reason Fleshpounds were weak to explosives was because they had way too much health to be tackled by single-shot weapons without breaking balance elsewhere and even then a sharpshooter with the m14 was generally better at killing them despite the resistance it had to work through.

When the vulnerability and weakness system was implemented in KF2 it was both a water-beats-fire mechanic AND heavily affected trash tier zeds. Flame weapons couldn't kill crawlers safely and assault rifles were one of the only effective options for Stalkers. These oddities extended across most zeds and weaponry. If you stepped outside those harshly enforced rules(which you have to because you can't hold every type of weapon at the same time) you had to waste so much ammo you'd run out and take unnecessary damage throughout the wave.

I just learned this system is still very much in effect, it's just been toned down. Looking at KFPawn_ZedCrawler.uc, smgs do 1.5x damage now and used to do 2.25x. Sure enough, fire deals 0.9x damage but used to deal 0.6x. Oddly, microwave damage is a measly 0.2x and there's no note for a previous version. I guess microwaving crawlers is still a bad idea to this day -OR- the microwave gun outputs a ton of DPS that needs to be toned down to lower health zeds.
 
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It was first implemented in the version1035 Bullseye update released back in June 2016; https://forums.tripwireinteractive....ements-af/120818-bullseye-update-preview-beta

Since then they made adjustments to it in versions 1036, 1037, and 1043 (you can see these in the news and announcements section). A quote from the 1037 update;
Yoshiro;n121234 said:
Resistance refinement and ZED balance changes
We've received your feedback on resistances and saw that most people like the idea and concept for this system but didn't like having low level zeds being harder to kill for some perks when you hit your target, so we've reverted most things back to the original before the Bullseye update and massively reduced others. We've also reduced ZED vulnerabilities to some types of damage, as these vulnerabilities were meant to be paired with ZED resistances.
 
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pie1055;n2334099 said:
It was first implemented in the version1035 Bullseye update released back in June 2016; https://forums.tripwireinteractive....ements-af/120818-bullseye-update-preview-beta

Since then they made adjustments to it in versions 1036, 1037, and 1043 (you can see these in the news and announcements section). A quote from the 1037 update;

Wow...I didn't even know "resistances" were a thing, other than scrakes are weak to bullets and fp are weak to explosives...I've played over 500 hours of this game and still have a lot to learn...
 
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GigaBowserX;n2334144 said:
Wow...I didn't even know "resistances" were a thing, other than scrakes are weak to bullets and fp are weak to explosives...I've played over 500 hours of this game and still have a lot to learn...

Yup, they even made handy little info-graphics that we were supposed to print out while we played or something-
Spoiler!


Trip's tried a lot of different things. Some have stayed, others have not. The game conductor is another one that didn't go over too well and was either removed or significantly toned down. It was supposed to ramp up or tone down difficulty dynamically as the game progressed. Go too long without getting hurt, he's a couple of Scrakes. Two or three teammates just died? Let's slow down the spawn rate for a while.
 
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pie1055;n2334149 said:
Yup, they even made handy little info-graphics that we were supposed to print out while we played or something-
Spoiler!


Trip's tried a lot of different things. Some have stayed, others have not. The game conductor is another one that didn't go over too well and was either removed or significantly toned down. It was supposed to ramp up or tone down difficulty dynamically as the game progressed. Go too long without getting hurt, he's a couple of Scrakes. Two or three teammates just died? Let's slow down the spawn rate for a while.

Well, that is quite the info-graphic! Just out of curiosity, do they still have those up? I might like to take a look to see how my tactics against certain enemies are stacking up (assuming, of course, that the info-graphics are still relevant/up-to-date). I mean, I can see that the boss ones at least might not be all that helpful, because they're randomly spawned. It's not like you can switch your arsenal mid-wave depending on which boss spawns. But still, it's good to learn.

That game conductor thing actually sounds really good on paper, but I imagine that in practice there would be a lot of flaws in it. I definitely wouldn't mind having things toned down a bit when I and other teammates start dropping like flies.
 
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GigaBowserX;n2334161 said:
Well, that is quite the info-graphic! Just out of curiosity, do they still have those up? I might like to take a look to see how my tactics against certain enemies are stacking up (assuming, of course, that the info-graphics are still relevant/up-to-date). I mean, I can see that the boss ones at least might not be all that helpful, because they're randomly spawned. It's not like you can switch your arsenal mid-wave depending on which boss spawns. But still, it's good to learn.

That game conductor thing actually sounds really good on paper, but I imagine that in practice there would be a lot of flaws in it. I definitely wouldn't mind having things toned down a bit when I and other teammates start dropping like flies.

I mean game conductor has been in-game for quite sometime now...
Also if you really want to learn zeds invulnr. or other stuff, read this.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...g0glFx8cZCuErwxZLiBKl9SyY/edit#gid=2068776317
 
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GigaBowserX;n2334161 said:
Well, that is quite the info-graphic! Just out of curiosity, do they still have those up? I might like to take a look to see how my tactics against certain enemies are stacking up (assuming, of course, that the info-graphics are still relevant/up-to-date). I mean, I can see that the boss ones at least might not be all that helpful, because they're randomly spawned. It's not like you can switch your arsenal mid-wave depending on which boss spawns. But still, it's good to learn.

That game conductor thing actually sounds really good on paper, but I imagine that in practice there would be a lot of flaws in it. I definitely wouldn't mind having things toned down a bit when I and other teammates start dropping like flies.

The wiki has 'em- https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=Specimens_(Killing_Floor_2)

As for the conductor, I think the general community consensus was that players went to HoE(or sui, or whatever) difficulty because they wanted to play on that difficulty. Not for the game to hand them a win because they weren't doing well. Not for the game to become unreasonably difficult because their perks were over-leveled for the difficulty. I say 'I think' here but it's partially also what I thought about the conductor as well. I don't want a cheap win and I don't want a hard time when I'm playing on a lower difficulty on purpose.
 
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Hi, you do sound pretty entitled and I disagree with what you said about the game now having enough content to justify a change in monetisation plans. That is in fact the company's decision, if you want to support the game you can still do it and this won't matter to you. If you don't want to support it, that's your decision, no need to be so entitled about it. Also, it's not like the developers are scrapping every planned content update to make room for more monetisation. It's exactly the opposite, they'll keep making expansions because of our continued support, we both profit. I also don't see any stampede as you mention, only a couple dudes on a forum most players don't even read (I mean look at how many posts this place gets, it's less than 1% of the game's active player base even between updates). Everybody knows loot boxes are bad. The developers know that too. This is a step away from that, closer to what we had in KF1. Stop making a big deal out of it and let people earn for a living and keep giving us great content. Thank you.
 
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pie1055;n2334199 said:
The wiki has 'em- https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=Specimens_(Killing_Floor_2)

As for the conductor, I think the general community consensus was that players went to HoE(or sui, or whatever) difficulty because they wanted to play on that difficulty. Not for the game to hand them a win because they weren't doing well. Not for the game to become unreasonably difficult because their perks were over-leveled for the difficulty. I say 'I think' here but it's partially also what I thought about the conductor as well. I don't want a cheap win and I don't want a hard time when I'm playing on a lower difficulty on purpose.

So you're saying the conductor isn't part of the game anymore? I mean, that would make sense, because I don't usually see the game getting any easier once people start dying. Also, do you think the info-graphics there on the wiki are still relevant, or has TWI changed the Zed resistances and such too much since they were made?
 
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GigaBowserX;n2334301 said:
So you're saying the conductor isn't part of the game anymore? I mean, that would make sense, because I don't usually see the game getting any easier once people start dying. Also, do you think the info-graphics there on the wiki are still relevant, or has TWI changed the Zed resistances and such too much since they were made?

If it is still in the game it doesn't do much. As for the info-graphics I don't know if there's been any big changes to them but if you want to know for sure checks5yn3t's link to simplecat's KF2 stats sheet it's a superb resource that's way better than the wikis. If you want to go straight to the source you can also download the SDK and check out the files used in the game themselves, the weaknesses/resistances are in the zed's classes as part of the DamageTypeModifiers array you can find in their defaultproperties.
 
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pie1055;n2334310 said:
If it is still in the game it doesn't do much. As for the info-graphics I don't know if there's been any big changes to them but if you want to know for sure checks5yn3t's link to simplecat's KF2 stats sheet it's a superb resource that's way better than the wikis. If you want to go straight to the source you can also download the SDK and check out the files used in the game themselves, the weaknesses/resistances are in the zed's classes as part of the DamageTypeModifiers array you can find in their defaultproperties.

Okay, thanks for the help. I'm not like a stat whore or anything, so I may not venture into the spreadsheet too much, because it does get kind of confusing...also, I don't know that it would change my strategy that much, because like I said before, it's not like you can change up your arsenal mid-wave or something. Usually you're stuck fighting with just the one or two good weapons you have on-hand. If I need the info, though, I now know where to go. :)
 
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GigaBowserX;n2334322 said:
Okay, thanks for the help. I'm not like a stat whore or anything, so I may not venture into the spreadsheet too much, because it does get kind of confusing...also, I don't know that it would change my strategy that much, because like I said before, it's not like you can change up your arsenal mid-wave or something. Usually you're stuck fighting with just the one or two good weapons you have on-hand. If I need the info, though, I now know where to go. :)

Sheet is mostly useful to fully learn the stats of the weapons being added (because in-game fails to give you relevant info... especially with dmg upgrades)
And zeds strength and weaknesses and what type of weapon deals most dmg and to which area.

Its not that confusing if you take your time and just focus on a specific question you have about a gun or 1 type of zed without getting overwhelmed by the sheer size of it.

Also, you CAN change your arsenal mid game depending on the situation and type of people you end up playing with.... Without being able to adapt the playstyle and the loadout, you end up endangering yourself and probably other players too (if they end up being a bunch of sheep that gather into 1 small spot and get slaughtered like idiots :D)
 
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s5yn3t;n2334323 said:
Also, you CAN change your arsenal mid game depending on the situation and type of people you end up playing with.... Without being able to adapt the playstyle and the loadout, you end up endangering yourself and probably other players too (if they end up being a bunch of sheep that gather into 1 small spot and get slaughtered like idiots :D)

How, though? Are you talking about buying extra weapons and dropping them on the ground to use later? Trading weapons with other players (also by dropping them)? Oh wait, I see you are saying changing your arsenal mid-game. I understand that, and I sometimes do that. What I said originally was, "it's not like you can change up your arsenal mid-wave," which really is impossible without using cheats to bring up the trader menu in the middle of a wave - not that you'd have time to buy anything before getting slaughtered.
 
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