Tactics Firebug Crisp/DoT Mechanics?

[Eisbaer]

Hello again with another question:

Since I recently started playing Firebug I read some stuff about it and joined a Hell on Earth game with a premade group of guys... Now I know that Fleshpounds receive less DoT damage, but scrakes take normal damage right? Since we were kiting and I was the last person to light the zeds on fire while running I thought it would be a good idea to burn scrakes... As far as I know they don't rage from the dot damage and also when they are crisped they take more damage from all sources right? Well my (more experienced teammates) did not see it like that and were mad at me but could not properly explain to me why as they told me scrakes do rage from dot damage and the damage boost only applies while their skin is crisped AND still on fire.

I tried to get resources on this, but no tutorial, wiki or other source seems to give clear answers...

So basically my questions are:

• What exactly defines beeing "crisped up"? And what is the mechanic behind zeds taking more damage when crisped?
• Do Scrakes/Fleshpounds rage from DoT-Damage? Or can I light them, run, light them, run, ... And they won't be mad at me?

Also: Do you have any tactics to share on a kiting firebug?


Thanks in advance for those who might know and care to share!

 

[Gladius]

I recently started playing Firebug ... and joined a Hell on Earth game ... I thought it would be a good idea to burn scrakes...

How about you start with reading some guides about basic game mechanics and how to play the firebug perk, before you ruin other peoples games?

Scrakes rage on HoE when they lose 30% health. Sometimes they wont't charge someone, but thats due to a bug (slowrage).
So burning scrakes is a big nono on HoE, when you don't control the scrake you burned yourself. Most important rule for playing on HoE is that you don't rage/burn anything you can't kill yourself and without putting others in harms way.

"Crisped" means charred black. Zeds dont take more damage when crisped. Maybe you misunderstood something about that Fleshpounds don't rage when taking >360 damage under 2 seconds, when they are crisped AND burning.

Also: Do you have any tactics to share on a kiting firebug?

The most important thing is to understand that there is a maximum of 32 zeds at the same time on the map. If you kill a lot in a short time, then you get respawns all over the map and you have to push through strong groups in the front. Damage over time is not the best thing when you have to penetrate a horde. It's easy to burn the zeds behind you, but when you do it too fast you will get your team into trouble.

 

[vealck]

1) Don't use flamethrower on HoE. Ever. The whole team will be healthier and happier that way, believe me.
2) Fleshpounds ignore rage damage check when they are crisped and burning. They will still rage from seeing you >10 seconds, so it's not that easy to use that to your advantage. If there's no one better suited to take care of FP at the moment, you can keep him burning and kite while breaking los often, but it takes a long time to kill FP that way. You can also unload flares/husk gun at him when he's crisped and burning, but there's a risk he will rage immediately when he stops burning, if you're not careful.
3) Firebug is great for kiting. Actually, an experienced player can run in company of zerks with nothing but a single flaregun and survive the whole game. Make it dual flareguns and you can kill scrakes on your own, while still having only 4 blocks of weight, which means you move 10% faster. If we're talking about solo game, you can complete it with just a mac.

 

[Eisbaer]

"Crisped" means charred black. Zeds dont take more damage when crisped.

This is taken from the Killing Floor Wiki:

Any weapons in the Firebug's arsenal will cause his ignited foes will "crisp up" after a period of time. This gives the Firebug more time to kite and allow the specimens to burn out, or crack down on them if they get too close. Even if you can't kill a big target alone you can crisp them up easily with your Incendiary Grenades. You can set them off with your Flamethrower after tossing one onto the ground. Since your grenades are pretty valuable and low on count, it's not recommended to stack them. Any crisped specimen will take extra damage from attacks and will be slowed down for a while, which is invaluable for heavy hitting team members. The "crisping" effect comes with a downside. If a greater specimen is raging when the "crisping" takes effect, its movement will become sporadic and unpredictable, making it difficult for teammates to take it down, and causes the specimen's head hitbox to move unpredictably, making it difficult for a Sharpshooter to get a bead on them.

So who is right now?

Also is there any disadvantage from applying dots to Fleshpounds? I'm only talking about kiting... That way the Fleshpound will have less healthpoints when the team decides to face him and he won't rage since it will be less than 360 damage in 2 seconds... Also when the team decides to face him he will be crisped up and can be ignited again if it is needed so he won't rage. (And yes I know that a lot of combos require him to rage, but you don't HAVE to set him on fire do you? At least it leaves another option)
Same applies to Scrakes... A single dot won't drop him below 70% health so why not do it? He will have less HP when attempting to kill him.

1) Don't use flamethrower on HoE. Ever. The whole team will be healthier and happier that way, believe me.

Can you give a reasoning? I mean it's not like with one spray you kill 20 ZEDs... Let's say you spray behind you once and 5 Zeds get the dot and let's just say there are 2 or 3 Clots/Crawlers in that pack, that means 2 or 3 new ZEDs will spawn. It is also a great/the best weapon in case you get stuck somewhere and need to slow down/kill a large group of ZEDs.

 

[Skell]

This is taken from the Killing Floor Wiki:


So who is right now?

Not you. Try it out for yourself next time before assuming some random wiki is correct.

Also is there any disadvantage from applying dots to Fleshpounds? I'm only talking about kiting... That way the Fleshpound will have less healthpoints when the team decides to face him and he won't rage since it will be less than 360 damage in 2 seconds... Also when the team decides to face him he will be crisped up and can be ignited again if it is needed so he won't rage. (And yes I know that a lot of combos require him to rage, but you don't HAVE to set him on fire do you? At least it leaves another option)

Kiting is lame so no one cares about that context. A fleshpound that is on fire will have its head hitbox all over the place and might start wailing around. No one wants that. Even kiters don't want that.

Same applies to Scrakes... A single dot won't drop him below 70% health so why not do it? He will have less HP when attempting to kill him.

I love it when my hitboxes are flailing about.

Can you give a reasoning? I mean it's not like with one spray you kill 20 ZEDs... Let's say you spray behind you once and 5 Zeds get the dot and let's just say there are 2 or 3 Clots/Crawlers in that pack, that means 2 or 3 new ZEDs will spawn. It is also a great/the best weapon in case you get stuck somewhere and need to slow down/kill a large group of ZEDs.

If you're going to be running around a map, zerk would be much more effective. Why this is even a valid point is beyond me.

 

[vealck]

Can you give a reasoning?

• Requires no aiming, promoting crappy playstyle.

• Blinds players who are trying to aim.

• Low level of control on what you're actually shooting at, can easily set on fire something you're not supposed to set on fire, like a scrake that was in vicinity of clots, etc.

• Low level of control how much damage you deal, can easily piss off scrake or fleshie if you're not careful and you won't be able to finish the job you started.

• Takes up a lot of space, while the same effect can be achieved with mac - which is accurate when used in semi and also enables decapping zeds.

 

[naksiloth]

Now I know that Fleshpounds receive less DoT damage, but scrakes take normal damage right? Since we were kiting and I was the last person to light the zeds on fire while running I thought it would be a good idea to burn scrakes...

Still Scrakes have fairly high maximum hitpoints at Hell on Earth and they rage as they lost 25-30% of their maximum hp. From a general stand point 6-player Hell on Earth Scrake has 6.1k hp and starts running when he lost 1.5k+. And I don't think as a Firebad you can deal the rest of the required damage before it rips the skin out of someone's face.

Litting Scrake on fire abit is fine. Scrake flails for a little while and it turns normal later but hosing it down and unleashing its rage is not. When it's enraged, attacked a player has to stand still and take the mow down damage which is slower, instead of stepping back and taking another 70 damage chainsaw hook for getting away from him. Enraging a Scrake let alone engaging it from up close when not needed is not an appropriate action in a kite scenery.

I tried to get resources on this, but no tutorial, wiki or other source seems to give clear answers...

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=45945
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49922
You better check those thread and read attached pdf for further questions about mechanics.

So basically my questions are:

• What exactly defines beeing "crisped up"? And what is the mechanic behind zeds taking more damage when crisped?

As I read from that pdf, only your afterburn damage and the other player's damage stacks, it's not talking about a straight damage increase on crisped targets. Crisping the specimen (besides Fleshpound and Patriarch who are immune to these effects) will make their reaction times worse and move 20% slower. After taking full afterburn damage, turning to charcoal and their flailing is done, you can consider that target as crisped.

I didn't read any clear sources about Fleshpound's damage check either. But from personal experience, I do believe if you manage to crisp the Fleshpound, dodge its swing once and keep it under fire longer than 10 seconds it will cancel its damage threshold check as long as its on fire. Once it stops burning, damage check will be intact again I think; so, you have to go through another burning sequence for it to cancel damage check again right away. Correct me if I'm wrong here please. I think fire damage must be bigger than some value but I'm not sure.

Also litting the Fleshpound on fire is not really beneficial because of its innate damage resistance of 50%. That resistance will turn your afterburn damage to minuscule bug bites.
Although, in a team of zerks, litting the Fleshpound can hurt the teamwork as attacking the lit FP right away (before crisping fully) with an onperk heavy melee (a headchop) might enrage it right away. Inform zerks about dodging its swing first before attacking the lit FP right away.

• Do Scrakes/Fleshpounds rage from DoT-Damage? Or can I light them, run, light them, run, ... And they won't be mad at me?

Even if you can cancel Fleshpound's damage check, he'll still enrage and charge at you if it cannot engage in close combat longer than 10-15~ seconds. Cutting line of sight will reset that timer, so as you burn him run far, far away.
I guess you can slow rage Scrakes to death with a simple MAC10 by letting them take full afterburn but that require practice.

Also: Do you have any tactics to share on a kiting firebug?


Thanks in advance for those who might know and care to share!

1. As a kiting Firebug throw Flamethrower away. Flamer is only cool when you're willing to shield the team from the Husks and Sirens in a hole up spot by going forward. Killing too much from behind with Flamer only cause you to get stronger front spawns later, additionally its recoil will not let you go easy. Grab Trench instead, no recoil, fast reload and higher damage spike.

2. Prioritize targets; your class is made for killing Sirens (#1 priority) and take the attention of Husks. In no way you meant to lit big fierces on fire unless they're weakened or enrage at a VERY close range.
For picking ranged threats like Siren and Husks I suggest carrying a MAC10 as well. Keep it at single fire when trying to tackle Husk/Siren behind a big target (let it be a meatshielding Bloat or Scrake, Fleshpound). If they're around the trash specimen use the Trench for opening the way.

3. Keep your incendiary grenades to enraged big targets or stucked situations for traffic/pest control. Throwing your grenades to the behind horde only cause you to get stronger front spawn as objected by many.
Carry a single Flare Revolver (or a dual to deal with Scrakes when it's a due) to set the incendiary grenades on the ground earlier by shooting at them. Because of bad accuracy of flares you might need to get down on iron sights for that.
Remember; Sirens exterminate your incendiary grenades and nullifies flare projectiles. Kill them first before trying to lit Scrake or Fleshpound on fire and enrage them.

4. As a fun and risky loadout, you might try carrying a katana. Melee weapons are never a bad choice, just try to take attention of many Husks as you can, it could be fun if you can keep the front spawn in control ofc.

 

[Eisbaer]

"Some dumb on the KF forums thinks you get a damage bonus from crisped up zeds."

What is your problem? If you don't want to answer questions on a forum that's okay, but why do you need to insult? And when I asked who is right I was not comparing me (as I obviously asked for what is right and did not make a statment), but the KF Wiki, Gladius statements and what those other players said.

Kiting is lame so no one cares about that context.

Somebody had a bad day and needs to release some steam on an internet forum where nobody will know where he is. Wow. How about you face your problems with the people that annoyed you.

I love it when my hitboxes are flailing about

And "your" hitbox will be flailing for only a short number of seconds which is totally neglectable when these mobs will be chasing your for minutes.

If you're going to be running around a map, zerk would be much more effective. Why this is even a valid point is beyond me.

There are still people who are trying to have FUN with a GAME and do things that are not the most effective simply for the joy of it or the curiosity.

Why are people so offended? Did I accidently touch a weak spot or did I enrage the Firebug haters or something?


Also thank you very much naksiloth for the objective and informative answers to my questions!!!

 

[Althamus]

Re: setting scrakes on fire.
In a perfect environment then yea, it's fine.
In the game, I wouldn't suggest it. If a scrake has been hit by overspray and that DoT takes it over the 30% it'll rage. If the scrake DoT takes it over the 30% when a zerker is just about to kill it, it makes it much harder. If you need to kill it right NOW because of circumstances, other zeds etc, then having it dance is annoying, or fatal.

Regardless of what the haters say though, firebugs are great for kiting even on HoE, BUT I would suggest getting rid of the FT (those things weigh you down, and aren't great as discussed) and get a MAC-10 or flares. This'll have all the ammo you'll ever need if you only shoot sirens or below, and hit it once and let it burn out. It'll kill clots (and gorefasts?) with a bodyshot (including DoT damage) and you can keep running and carry on. Tradeoff is that you're a bit slower than zerkers (?), less survivable, and can't kill FPs (unless you want to die of old age).
Edit: And a katana isn't a bad option either to carry, especially when your only gun is being reloaded. Helps you move forward nicely as well if there're a lot of zeds in front.

 

[Skell]

What is your problem? If you don't want to answer questions on a forum that's okay, but why do you need to insult? And when I asked who is right I was not comparing me (as I obviously asked for what is right and did not make a statment), but the KF Wiki, Gladius statements and what those other players said.

Somebody had a bad day and needs to release some steam on an internet forum where nobody will know where he is. Wow. How about you face your problems with the people that annoyed you.

If you're going to cry about me calling you "some dumb on the forums" in the description of a YouTube video, I would recommend taking your really long-winded, personal retorts someplace where people will care.

And "your" hitbox will be flailing for only a short number of seconds which is totally neglectable when these mobs will be chasing your for minutes.

I was thinking of the context where timing matters. Where you need to take scrakes quickly and effectively or risk getting overrun. You know, something that would require quick thinking and skill. But I guess if you run in circles on a map for hours, it wouldn't change much.

Edit: Oh, also, I play Firebug - it's not a bad perk.

 

[Gregs2k2]

Let's stay on topic and steer clear of the insults. No place for that here. One and only warning.

 

[vealck]

Typical game on HoE:

Everybody is having a good time
A wild firebad with flame hose appears
Dancing scrakes everywhere
People ask firebad not to burn scrakes
He doesn't listen
Sharps enter 'you rage it, your problem' mode
Firebad dies from chainsaw overdose and ragequits, but not before killing demo by exploding his grenades in his face and raging fp on the nearest commando
Wipe-a-doodie-doo

 

[scary ghost]

What is your problem? If you don't want to answer questions on a forum that's okay, but why do you need to insult? And when I asked who is right I was not comparing me (as I obviously asked for what is right and did not make a statment), but the KF Wiki, Gladius statements and what those other players said.

I'd be wary of a site that, despite having so many contributors, still cannot get simple facts about the game correct. This reminds of a time when the KF wiki said scrakes had explosive resistance and fleshpounds had LAW resistance and people believed every word of it despite in game evidence and code shoved in their faces.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

Typical game on HoE:

Everybody is having a good time
A wild firebad with flame hose appears
Dancing scrakes everywhere
People ask firebad not to burn scrakes
He doesn't listen
Sharps enter 'you rage it, your problem' mode
Firebad dies from chainsaw overdose and ragequits, but not before killing demo by exploding his grenades in his face and raging fp on the nearest commando
Wipe-a-doodie-doo

As a chronic Sharp, I know that mode all too well...

@ OP: it might be worth learning how to use the Husk Cannon well, as I have yet to see a decent team go off at anyone who knows how to use a Husk Cannon. It's powerful, can crowd control, and can stun Scrakes in emergencies. Or as someone else said, try the Trenchgun, as that is also a solid weapon. In fact, use any Firebug weapon, anything, except for the Flamethrower.

PS, Mac10 is for pros.

 

[Eisbaer]

I never said I was using the flamethrower in the first place... My preferred loadout at the moment is MAC10, Flare Revolver and ZED gun, although the latter is quite expensive so before I can afford it I run with dual Flares instead. The second loadout I like to use is MAC10, Dual Flares and MKII ZED gun.

If you're going to cry...

I did not cry, I was questioning your intentions.

I was thinking of the context where timing matters. Where you need to take scrakes quickly and effectively or risk getting overrun. You know, something that would require quick thinking and skill.

But I was explicitly asking about a kiting context.
So if you want to write about the context you described I would suggest writing it:

someplace where people will care.

I'd be wary of a site that...

I did not know that it was such a bad site for information. Maybe the people that know there are faults in there could correct them?

@ OP: it might be worth learning how to use the Husk Cannon well...

Thanks for the input, I have actually experienced with some loadouts that include the Huskgun, but somehow I feel it is too slow to be used effectively in close situations... Also there is a projectile bug which makes it deal 3 times less damage at point-blank (at least according to this thread http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=96538).

 

[Althamus]

But I was explicitly asking about a kiting context.

Here's a scenario.

Scrake is walking behind party. Firebug at the back decides to hit him with a single MAC-10 shot to deal some damage.

a) Scrake has already been hit by overspill damage from someone else, or b) Scrake has already been tagged by a MAC-10 shot, and due to bug he is not showing as crispy.

Scrake starts raging and running at the party.


Party is in cramped corridor with lots of corners, so they don't realise Scrake is coming for them until he's right on top of them.

At the same time, a FP is in front of the party, with a couple of sirens popping around the corner. Because of the urgency, two zerks go for him at once, and he rages. Because of the panic, they back off and the sirens start dropping everyone's health. The zerk at the back who went for the raging scrake is distracted, so the scrake gets a good hit on him taking him down to half-health so he now can't run so fast. Sirens finish him off, and the FP kills another party member. Everyone else is on half-health (FB is on about 30% due to no siren resist), 2 people are dead, and the rest of the party scatters due to lack of command. Party wipe within 2 minutes.


Sure, this is a very specific example, and could be easily avoided given a few seconds of thought, but in a game you don't always have that advantage. The way that I always do it is to leave scrakes until the end. If there are a dozen scrakes and you have two zerkers, it's easy as pie to get them all chasing one, and the other takes an axe to their backs one at a time. Seems a lot of risk for no reward, bearing in mind that when kiting properly, scrakes are one of the easiest specimens to ignore.

 

[DasB]

and if you break the LOS their rage mode will change to "slow rage",

A Scrake that is raging on you or someone else won't give a single f about breaking line of sight, neither will it slowrage from that.

 

[Gladius]

As a zerk I have no problems...

Stopped reading right there.

 

[Eisbaer]

A Scrake that is raging on you or someone else won't give a single f about breaking line of sight, neither will it slowrage from that.

He probably meant when you light him on fire, THEN walk around a corner and THEN the damage threshold will cause him to rage. Not him raging and then you slip around a corner.

Stopped reading right there.

What an ignorant post. Why don't you just respect other people's opinion and don't write at all if you don't have anything to say in the first place.

 

[naksiloth]

Dude, chill; nobody posted an opinion, at least it wasn't objective.
Just because someone plays a zerk and have no problem with burnt Scrakes, it doesn't mean others should be playing zerk as well nor have any problem with the burnt Scrakes. Heck, zerks don't even need something called teamwork.

As for slow rage with fire thing, I guess this part of this video covers it pretty much 6:00 mark and onward. As I see from video cutting line of sight at least once (completely with all team once lit) and putting a long distance between are the keys to that. Because, even before the slow rage triggers Scrake moves pretty hastily upon you. If there's not enough distance and you just hang around the corner, it will close in then you can forget about the slow rage trigger.


Scrake: Flinch & Slow Rage