Gameplay ideas

[zipperskull]

Has anyone suggested buildable structures or utility that can fend off zeds that can break through walls? If not, how would the community feel about this idea? I though it would make sense, any type of zed can just run on through any broken wall. They would attack at every angle, so why not? You're defending off a horde they can that can get through broken structures.

Mmmm imagine having a different type of stalker that can blink spastically (dodging bullets and players aim), almost like shes glitching out visually. It'll be interest if she can blink through walls and basic player buildables.

 

[Aleflippy]

Fortnite much?

I remember a mod for the first Killing Floor that added turrets... I can't quite remember how good/bad they were, but I do have some core memories from KF2's drones. They sucked.

Plus, unless KF3 somehow goes back to a more grounded, slower pace compared to KF2 where the best strategy was often to keep on running... I doubt people would even care about upgrading your defenses. The best way to deal with zeds is to avoid giving them any space, as you might need it to either escape or simply heal back up/reload... quite the opposite of camping around.

As for a Stalker that straight up "dodges" your bullets... For the love of everything good in this world, NO. It's one thing to miss a shot because the zed you were aiming at did a little somersault to avoid being blasted by a shotgun. It's something else entirely when your shot simply DOESN'T CONNECT. You can't predict that : you just have to hope she won't avoid the second shot.

Unless you offer some kind of counterplay other than "pray for it to land", that's a hard pass.

 

[OnionBubs]

this must be that Forte Night game what all them zoomers go crazy for

Has anyone suggested buildable structures or utility that can fend off zeds that can break through walls? If not, how would the community feel about this idea?

In all seriousness, nobody has seriously suggested it because it would be a wildly different approach from anything we've seen in a Killing Floor game--where the structures are built into the environment, y'know, level design--and because...

I though it would make sense, any type of zed can just run on through any broken wall. They would attack at every angle, so why not? You're defending off a horde they can that can get through broken structures.

...we don't know that for certain yet. A Fleshpound was shown slamming through what could either be a wall or a door in a 5-seconds-at-most of actual in-game footage. That may be a baked-in level setpiece akin to Zeds breaking down welded doors as in the prior KF2 games, or it could be something made entirely for the trailer that doesn't even make it into the final product.

So it's a little early to suggest buildable levels based entirely on that.

Mmmm imagine having a different type of stalker that can blink spastically (dodging bullets and players aim), almost like shes glitching out visually. It'll be interest if she can blink through walls and basic player buildables.

That's a wildy different swerve than what the thread title gave away.

Stalkers are already programmed to "dodge" in KF2 via side-rolls and backwards hops, be it from certain classes or from non-lethal damage. The higher the difficulty, the higher the chance. This is to encourage marskmanship and punish non-lethal damage on glass cannon trash.

A Stalker that straight up blink-teleports around the player like something out of <insert shounen fighting anime here>--which is what I assume you are suggesting because the suggestion itself is kinda vague--on top of all the offensive capabilities they have in KF2 would be very nasty, and very unlike anything that is presently in the game. Most things charge you in a straight line by design.
Picture, if you will, aiming at a Stalker with a shotgun and pulling the trigger only to find the same stalker is now spin-kicking you in the back of the head .25 seconds later for most of your life bar. I cannot think of any perk in the game on which that would not be unbelievably maddening. That would make them scarier than Fleshpounds for anything not named Firebug, or maybe Field-Medic-with-gas-at-feet.

 

[zipperskull]

Fortnite much?

I remember a mod for the first Killing Floor that added turrets... I can't quite remember how good/bad they were, but I do have some core memories from KF2's drones. They sucked.

Plus, unless KF3 somehow goes back to a more grounded, slower pace compared to KF2 where the best strategy was often to keep on running... I doubt people would even care about upgrading your defenses. The best way to deal with zeds is to avoid giving them any space, as you might need it to either escape or simply heal back up/reload... quite the opposite of camping around.

As for a Stalker that straight up "dodges" your bullets... For the love of everything good in this world, NO. It's one thing to miss a shot because the zed you were aiming at did a little somersault to avoid being blasted by a shotgun. It's something else entirely when your shot simply DOESN'T CONNECT. You can't predict that : you just have to hope she won't avoid the second shot.

Unless you offer some kind of counterplay other than "pray for it to land", that's a hard pass.

Of course you say "fortnite" when that's not even what I had in mind. This is a problem for you veteran players always tearing down ideas because you're too scared to adapt to changes to the franchise and gameplay. That's really sad. Matter of fact, I rather listen to any dev's on their perspective and how they test out the idea then just some random veteran that closed minded enough to tear down all the ideas on forums because he doesn't want anything for a new game, just assumptions, judgment and fear. If kf3 is slow pace with in destructive walls, then let there be defenses, because it makes sense protect yourself from a huge specimen with expendable arms. I'm not listening to y'all.

 

[zipperskull]

this must be that Forte Night game what all them zoomers go crazy for


In all seriousness, nobody has seriously suggested it because it would be a wildly different approach from anything we've seen in a Killing Floor game--where the structures are built into the environment, y'know, level design--and because...


...we don't know that for certain yet. A Fleshpound was shown slamming through what could either be a wall or a door in a 5-seconds-at-most of actual in-game footage. That may be a baked-in level setpiece akin to Zeds breaking down welded doors as in the prior KF2 games, or it could be something made entirely for the trailer that doesn't even make it into the final product.

So it's a little early to suggest buildable levels based entirely on that.


That's a wildy different swerve than what the thread title gave away.

Stalkers are already programmed to "dodge" in KF2 via side-rolls and backwards hops, be it from certain classes or from non-lethal damage. The higher the difficulty, the higher the chance. This is to encourage marskmanship and punish non-lethal damage on glass cannon trash.

A Stalker that straight up blink-teleports around the player like something out of <insert shounen fighting anime here>--which is what I assume you are suggesting because the suggestion itself is kinda vague--on top of all the offensive capabilities they have in KF2 would be very nasty, and very unlike anything that is presently in the game. Most things charge you in a straight line by design.
Picture, if you will, aiming at a Stalker with a shotgun and pulling the trigger only to find the same stalker is now spin-kicking you in the back of the head .25 seconds later for most of your life bar. I cannot think of any perk in the game on which that would not be unbelievably maddening. That would make them scarier than Fleshpounds for anything not named Firebug, or maybe Field-Medic-with-gas-at-feet.

No dude, a blinking stalker is different from an invisible one. Have you played dead space? Have you ever seen a twitcher move spastically where it was challenging to kill it? I want that in kf3 because it gives players a challenge for their aim and how to counter it. It may seem the same but believe me, a zed constantly blinking alway from your crosshair would be really cool af and challenging.

 

[OnionBubs]

OK, yes, the Fortnite throwaway comment was cheeky and dickish, and I apologize for that. However...

This is a problem for you veteran players always tearing down ideas because you're too scared to adapt to changes to the franchise and gameplay. That's really sad. Matter of fact, I rather listen to any dev's on their perspective and how they test out the idea then just some random veteran that closed minded enough to tear down all the ideas on forums because he doesn't want anything for a new game, just assumptions, judgment and fear. If kf3 is slow pace with in destructive walls, then let there be defenses, because it makes sense protect yourself from a huge specimen with expendable arms. I'm not listening to y'all.

The veteran players in both KF games have had to put up with radical changes not just between the two titles as a whole, but within each individual game's life cycle. And a lot of those changes are making the game kinda worse in the name of attracting a larger casual playerbase (for a niche entry in a niche genre).

I watched KF2 go from something that could be an aim-intensive team game at the highest difficulties to a spam-filled jankfest, with the decline starting around Summer 2018 and still continuing to this day. We now have stuff like floating turrets that automatically play the game for bad players (and can teamkill others if the bad player using them dies) because so much of what made the game fun ("here's a bunch of fast-moving heads in all different shapes, sizes, and toughness; click 'em") has been thrown out the window in the name of appeasing content vultures.

So when players start suggesting ideas that sound on their face like they come from popular contemporaries, such as being able to construct buildings in a manner similar to a PVP battle-royale game, we get nervous and/or dismissive because usually those are introduced with "it would be cool/fun" and almost never a mechanical argument as to how it would actually benefit the core loop of what amounts to a really angry Aim Hero simulator.

Speaking of things that come from other games...

No dude, a blinking stalker is different from an invisible one.

Right, blinking. As in a thing with a short-range teleport. Like Tracer from Overwatch.

zed constantly blinking alway from your crosshair would be really cool af and challenging.

I can see the appeal behind this kind of enemy, but: I don't think this would work well in a horde game without some serious concessions. This works in Dead Space because DS is a slower survival horror game, not a horde shooter, so you have more of an opportunity to focus on the singular jerky enemy.
But when you factor in one (or more) of the same enemy that can do that thing flanked by a dozen (or more) buddies, that becomes a different matter. Especially if, like Stalkers, that twitchy enemy comes in packs and hits like a runaway freight train. Again, with regards to something like a Support Specialist in KF2: the starter shotgun does well if a Stalker happens to be caught in the pellets, but having to face multiple Stalkers flanked by other enemies that just plain warp around your aim as well as your shotgun's projectiles would suck. You'd get off one shotgun blast and in the time it took to chamber the next shell you'd be dead three times over.

The other thing that gives me pause for thought is that damage avoidance mechanics for Zeds--block and dodge--already exist in KF2, and even in the form of being aware of flashlights and weapons being aimed their way. The catch: the flashlight/aimed-weapons-thing largely only exists for ONE specific perk. It is mostly as an anti-Sharpshooter mechanic.

So I can kinda maybe see the appeal of an enemy programmed to dodge your real-time aiming crosshairs if it was an Elite (less-common) Stalker variant and it had some major tradeoffs. But to be fair, you'd have to make them immune to fire and explosives to make sure it's not yet another anti-headshot perk mechanic lmao.
I can picture that in current-state KF2 as being a complete non-issue for the already easier perks. Oh cool, it dodges where I aim! Good thing I can set the entire floor on fire both at close range and a distance with no self-damage whatsoever. Or shotgun-jump while launching an entire pallet of explosives as the class that's supposed to be weak at close range. Or toss a medic grenade at my feet. What now?
Taking what I know from KF2 experience: There is too much non-aim nonsense for this kind of enemy to be a threat in that context for half the perks in the game, while potentially being a nightmare for the other half (and that's the perks that are already harder to play well).

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I discuss mechanical reasoning. There has to be some sort of elaboration w/r/t game mechanics and design. I don't believe in just complete dismissal unless someone is being an absolute turd and not listening to reason or anything else, but I also firmly believe flawed ideas made in earnest can be criticized in good faith.

 

[Aleflippy]

As usual, I fully back up Onion's claims. He certainly put everything into perspective way better than I would have.

I'll simply return to the comment directly addressed to me: yes, the Fortnite comment was both easy and quite dismissive. And I'm sorry it came off that way but... Unsurprisingly: things inspire other things, which in turn might inspire people. You title your topic "Buildable structures and utility", of course I'm gonna think of one of the biggest games of the past few years. As Killing Floor isn't a RTS, I obviously wouldn't have gone straight to the conclusion that you were proposing some type of base-building option, akin to Starcraft or Age of Empires. I guess I could have thought about various engineer classes in shooters, that are able to build up sentries and what not (Torbjorn, TF2's Engi and so on). But the mere word "structure" really made me think of Fortnite, sorry about that.

I mean, it would be like playing a platformer and not think once about Sonic, Mario, Crash Bandicoot or Rayman. You can only compare with whatever you know, right?

Fun fact though : FortWars, a mod for TF2 that allowed teams to build various structures before the beginning of the match, right before pitting each of them against each other in a deathmatch scenario... was released a whopping seven years BEFORE Fortnite.

 

[zipperskull]

OK, yes, the Fortnite throwaway comment was cheeky and dickish, and I apologize for that. However...


The veteran players in both KF games have had to put up with radical changes not just between the two titles as a whole, but within each individual game's life cycle. And a lot of those changes are making the game kinda worse in the name of attracting a larger casual playerbase (for a niche entry in a niche genre).

I watched KF2 go from something that could be an aim-intensive team game at the highest difficulties to a spam-filled jankfest, with the decline starting around Summer 2018 and still continuing to this day. We now have stuff like floating turrets that automatically play the game for bad players (and can teamkill others if the bad player using them dies) because so much of what made the game fun ("here's a bunch of fast-moving heads in all different shapes, sizes, and toughness; click 'em") has been thrown out the window in the name of appeasing content vultures.

So when players start suggesting ideas that sound on their face like they come from popular contemporaries, such as being able to construct buildings in a manner similar to a PVP battle-royale game, we get nervous and/or dismissive because usually those are introduced with "it would be cool/fun" and almost never a mechanical argument as to how it would actually benefit the core loop of what amounts to a really angry Aim Hero simulator.

Speaking of things that come from other games...


Right, blinking. As in a thing with a short-range teleport. Like Tracer from Overwatch.


I can see the appeal behind this kind of enemy, but: I don't think this would work well in a horde game without some serious concessions. This works in Dead Space because DS is a slower survival horror game, not a horde shooter, so you have more of an opportunity to focus on the singular jerky enemy.
But when you factor in one (or more) of the same enemy that can do that thing flanked by a dozen (or more) buddies, that becomes a different matter. Especially if, like Stalkers, that twitchy enemy comes in packs and hits like a runaway freight train. Again, with regards to something like a Support Specialist in KF2: the starter shotgun does well if a Stalker happens to be caught in the pellets, but having to face multiple Stalkers flanked by other enemies that just plain warp around your aim as well as your shotgun's projectiles would suck. You'd get off one shotgun blast and in the time it took to chamber the next shell you'd be dead three times over.

The other thing that gives me pause for thought is that damage avoidance mechanics for Zeds--block and dodge--already exist in KF2, and even in the form of being aware of flashlights and weapons being aimed their way. The catch: the flashlight/aimed-weapons-thing largely only exists for ONE specific perk. It is mostly as an anti-Sharpshooter mechanic.

So I can kinda maybe see the appeal of an enemy programmed to dodge your real-time aiming crosshairs if it was an Elite (less-common) Stalker variant and it had some major tradeoffs. But to be fair, you'd have to make them immune to fire and explosives to make sure it's not yet another anti-headshot perk mechanic lmao.
I can picture that in current-state KF2 as being a complete non-issue for the already easier perks. Oh cool, it dodges where I aim! Good thing I can set the entire floor on fire both at close range and a distance with no self-damage whatsoever. Or shotgun-jump while launching an entire pallet of explosives as the class that's supposed to be weak at close range. Or toss a medic grenade at my feet. What now?
Taking what I know from KF2 experience: There is too much non-aim nonsense for this kind of enemy to be a threat in that context for half the perks in the game, while potentially being a nightmare for the other half (and that's the perks that are already harder to play well).

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I discuss mechanical reasoning. There has to be some sort of elaboration w/r/t game mechanics and design. I don't believe in just complete dismissal unless someone is being an absolute turd and not listening to reason or anything else, but I also firmly believe flawed ideas made in earnest can be criticized in good faith.

Yeah I never meant utility being use as of like "fortnite", no, I meant it in a different way. I'm not trying to ruin the gameplay of kf1 and kf2 in any form, I love both games, but if tripwire added destructive walls, then how we as players going to make waves beatable if zeds are going use cybernetics and use the environment to their advantage. I approve criticism saying that I'm trying make the game into "fortnite" when that not the case when you missed the point. Like what do you want the game be? The same? Or different?

 

[zipperskull]

As usual, I fully back up Onion's claims. He certainly put everything into perspective way better than I would have.

I'll simply return to the comment directly addressed to me: yes, the Fortnite comment was both easy and quite dismissive. And I'm sorry it came off that way but... Unsurprisingly: things inspire other things, which in turn might inspire people. You title your topic "Buildable structures and utility", of course I'm gonna think of one of the biggest games of the past few years. As Killing Floor isn't a RTS, I obviously wouldn't have gone straight to the conclusion that you were proposing some type of base-building option, akin to Starcraft or Age of Empires. I guess I could have thought about various engineer classes in shooters, that are able to build up sentries and what not (Torbjorn, TF2's Engi and so on). But the mere word "structure" really made me think of Fortnite, sorry about that.

I mean, it would be like playing a platformer and not think once about Sonic, Mario, Crash Bandicoot or Rayman. You can only compare with whatever you know, right?

Fun fact though : FortWars, a mod for TF2 that allowed teams to build various structures before the beginning of the match, right before pitting each of them against each other in a deathmatch scenario... was released a whopping seven years BEFORE Fortnite.

Its whatever, because I'm unsure how kf3 will be with cybernetic zeds new upgrades and indestructible environments, they're cool but I'm trying to think of ways to counter zed types and master survival. I thought of survival, but I guess utility isn't as fitting for kf so now idk what to think because killing floor. I do want something new for the game but not entirely game breaking or completely game changing. Weapon attachment and brand new objective modes is what I'm looking up to. Sorry I sound stubborn.

 

[OnionBubs]

how we as players going to make waves beatable if zeds are going use cybernetics and use the environment to their advantage. I approve criticism saying that I'm trying make the game into "fortnite" when that not the case when you missed the point.

In fairness, it's hard to hit the point when the point is pretty vague and based on guessing stuff that frankly speaking doesn't actually exist yet (as far as we know).

Like what do you want the game be? The same?

Yeah, more or less.

KF2 is a good time when you trim the ever-increasing amount of fat from the game, but the problem is that in order to have that experience in 2024 you have to:

• play by the honor system
• take out half of the game's perks (Berserker, Firebug, Demolitionist, Survivalist, sometimes Field Medic) and their corresponding weapons
• enforce diverse team comps within that reduced perk list
• omit half of the game's weapons that aren't on the already-mentioned perk list
• make premade teams
• eschew a good chunk of the game's maps
• and delve into the Controlled Difficulty systems to figure out the ideal spawns

...to make the game hit just right in terms of challenge. And frankly, if I have to do that much extracurricular work just to have a good time, I expect extra credit on my résumé.

I just want that challenging experience without having to jump through eighteen hoops. Let's worry about getting the basics of "arena-based horde shooter with increasing difficulties" down first, that thing that the devs increasingly lost the plot on somewhere around Summer 2018. Then, and only then, should we be worried about layering new systems on top of the stuff that works.

Will it be the most popular or hottest new thing to reach the market? No. Do I care? Nah. It's a niche title in a niche genre; it doesn't have to make all the money or win all the accolades at <insert awards show here>.
Buildable structures in modern games very much lends itself to a "base-building tower defense" sort of experience (which Fortnite absolutely got its mechanics from; I know everyone forgot Save The World exists), which I don't care much for and isn't what I play Killing Floor to experience.

 

[zipperskull]

In fairness, it's hard to hit the point when the point is pretty vague and based on guessing stuff that frankly speaking doesn't actually exist yet (as far as we know).


Yeah, more or less.

KF2 is a good time when you trim the ever-increasing amount of fat from the game, but the problem is that in order to have that experience in 2024 you have to:

• play by the honor system
• take out half of the game's perks (Berserker, Firebug, Demolitionist, Survivalist, sometimes Field Medic) and their corresponding weapons
• enforce diverse team comps within that reduced perk list
• omit half of the game's weapons that aren't on the already-mentioned perk list
• make premade teams
• eschew a good chunk of the game's maps
• and delve into the Controlled Difficulty systems to figure out the ideal spawns

...to make the game hit just right in terms of challenge. And frankly, if I have to do that much extracurricular work just to have a good time, I expect extra credit on my résumé.

I just want that challenging experience without having to jump through eighteen hoops. Let's worry about getting the basics of "arena-based horde shooter with increasing difficulties" down first, that thing that the devs increasingly lost the plot on somewhere around Summer 2018. Then, and only then, should we be worried about layering new systems on top of the stuff that works.

Will it be the most popular or hottest new thing to reach the market? No. Do I care? Nah. It's a niche title in a niche genre; it doesn't have to make all the money or win all the accolades at <insert awards show here>.
Buildable structures in modern games very much lends itself to a "base-building tower defense" sort of experience (which Fortnite absolutely got its mechanics from; I know everyone forgot Save The World exists), which I don't care much for and isn't what I play Killing Floor to experience.

Other than buildables, how would you feel if kf3 had advance mobility, like climbing, strafing, sliding and dodging? I remember meli_mp4 in the mentioned in a his video. I think it would be neat to dodge zeds in a short dash in different directions. Climbing would be cool, I imagine it as slow climb, zeds could still hit you for a short moment unless you have a perk that allows you to climb faster. I'm not against the idea since I dislike not having vertical movement in kf2 when it requires a double barrel shotgun blast.

 

[OnionBubs]

how would you feel if kf3 had advance mobility, like climbing, strafing, sliding and dodging?

The same way I feel about KF2 having sprinting.

KF1 was intentionally designed around having limited movement for both humans and Zeds. I'm sure part of that is because it's just easier to do so when you have a small team working on their first major game, but that design was very deliberate:

• The Zeds all shamble except for certain Zeds moving faster under certain conditions.
  • Gorefiends/Scrakes/Fleshpounds all have sprint states that let them close the gap on players
• Players move very slow by default with their guns deployed so you can't outpace the melee enemies while whittling them down.
  • The sole exceptions are Field Medic and Berserker
  • Medic has lesser firepower and also needs to reposition to get LoS on teammates due to lack of homing darts
  • Berserker had no distance weapons (until the Buzzsaw Bow was added very late in the game's life cycle) which created its own need for faster movespeed
• The only way for players to move faster is to holster their gun and pull out their knife. This is to force players to either commit to a kite/reposition or stand their ground and risk dying. If you beef a kite or reposition badly, you are caught out with just your knife and by the time you get back into shooting position you may be screwed.
  • This is somewhat inherited from Counter-Strike, which also has somewhat grounded movement and uses the same principles w/r/t movement vs firepower with the knife movement mechanics. Especially notable considering the zombies mod that would go on to become the basis for Left 4 Dead.

KF2 added sprinting in as a feature, and with that added in, the devs upended one of the major tenets of the original game's design. In doing so, the game needed to be fundamentally redesigned around sprinting being part of the player's kit so that kiting isn't the single best answer to everything.
This is why Zeds move quickly and aggressively, why the main difficulty differentiator is how quickly Zeds can move, why they are given dodging animations, and the entire reason as to why the game's highly aggressive spawn and teleport systems exist.
Depending on who you ask, the spawn and teleport systems are one of the most aggravating features in the entire game. It literally makes or breaks some maps. TWI has redesigned entire maps from the workshop to accommodate the spawning system because without adding in tons of LoS breaks and-so-forth the maps would be a complete non-issue for players trying to stay awake. When the game has to be designed that shakily to accommodate "improved" movement, the design of the game takes a hit, both in how it's perceived by players and by how players will accomodate to that spawning system (those who can't, kite as Berserker/Medic/Survivalist; those who can, aim).

As for vertical movement, well...the game was simply not designed around vertical movement, which is why most maps don't really feature it outside of technically having staircases, why fall damage is so killer in both games, and why shotgun jumps are extremely limited (either to handful of on-perk weapons at best, or forcing you to offperk a break-action shotgun to have that movement option at hand).

So when you consider the requests for KF3 to have more movement and more verticality in general, you have to consider what that means for the players and Zeds. Without typing an entire essay here on it, I will say that as you move more towards fast movement and increased verticality, you're straying away from Killing Floor's basic design principles (limited mobility for PCs and enemies, flat and simple area design to complement that).
When you have players and Zeds flying around at high speeds in open arenas that are designed with that movement in mind (because you have to design levels with that increased mobility to match; that absolutely would not work in something like the cramped confines of Biotics Lab as seen in either KF title), you have to ask yourself at what point is the game you're playing still KF? From the various online blurbs I've seen such as the ones in PCGamer, GamesRadar, and so forth, that is exactly the direction the dev team is taking.

In fact, what you're basically asking for with even more verticality and faster movement, double-jumps, dodges, dashes, etc. is something towards the "boomer shooter" end of the spectrum, namely Doom 2016/Eternal. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with those on their own merits, but that's not what most people who enjoy either of the KF titles play it for; the KF1 enjoyers play that for its ruthless difficulty and design encouraging tight teamwork, and KF2 enjoyers play it for the absolutely sublime shooting mechanics and cranking up the shooting gallery difficulties by mastering headshots against swift-moving (but not flying!) targets.

That doesn't mean the game can't be good. But from a mechanical standpoint, that would be a further departure from what I'd consider a proper KF title. (And I'm not counting Incursion or Calamity, obviously, just mainline entries.)
Obviously I'll have to wait and see. But given how much KF2 flew off the rails post-2017, I'm not holding my breath on it just yet.

 

[Spoke]

Sure, i think it would be interesting. Maybe some static spots that allow you to select a buildable from a couple of options. We somewhat already had that with welding and trapping doors.
Though expanding on that would be hard to implement and balance since the Killing Floor revolves around trying to keep enemies away from you.

Other than buildables, how would you feel if kf3 had advance mobility, like climbing, strafing, sliding and dodging? I remember meli_mp4 in the mentioned in a his video. I think it would be neat to dodge zeds in a short dash in different directions. Climbing would be cool, I imagine it as slow climb, zeds could still hit you for a short moment unless you have a perk that allows you to climb faster. I'm not against the idea since I dislike not having vertical movement in kf2 when it requires a double barrel shotgun blast.

Yeah a dodge sounds interesting but parrying already occupies that space. Still, i'm not opposed to more methods of skill expression, maybe it could be part of a perk.

 

[Tiger_]

The same way I feel about KF2 having sprinting.

KF1 was intentionally designed around having limited movement for both humans and Zeds. I'm sure part of that is because it's just easier to do so when you have a small team working on their first major game, but that design was very deliberate:

• The Zeds all shamble except for certain Zeds moving faster under certain conditions.
  • Gorefiends/Scrakes/Fleshpounds all have sprint states that let them close the gap on players
• Players move very slow by default with their guns deployed so you can't outpace the melee enemies while whittling them down.
  • The sole exceptions are Field Medic and Berserker
  • Medic has lesser firepower and also needs to reposition to get LoS on teammates due to lack of homing darts
  • Berserker had no distance weapons (until the Buzzsaw Bow was added very late in the game's life cycle) which created its own need for faster movespeed
• The only way for players to move faster is to holster their gun and pull out their knife. This is to force players to either commit to a kite/reposition or stand their ground and risk dying. If you beef a kite or reposition badly, you are caught out with just your knife and by the time you get back into shooting position you may be screwed.
  • This is somewhat inherited from Counter-Strike, which also has somewhat grounded movement and uses the same principles w/r/t movement vs firepower with the knife movement mechanics. Especially notable considering the zombies mod that would go on to become the basis for Left 4 Dead.

KF2 added sprinting in as a feature, and with that added in, the devs upended one of the major tenets of the original game's design. In doing so, the game needed to be fundamentally redesigned around sprinting being part of the player's kit so that kiting isn't the single best answer to everything.
This is why Zeds move quickly and aggressively, why the main difficulty differentiator is how quickly Zeds can move, why they are given dodging animations, and the entire reason as to why the game's highly aggressive spawn and teleport systems exist.
Depending on who you ask, the spawn and teleport systems are one of the most aggravating features in the entire game. It literally makes or breaks some maps. TWI has redesigned entire maps from the workshop to accommodate the spawning system because without adding in tons of LoS breaks and-so-forth the maps would be a complete non-issue for players trying to stay awake. When the game has to be designed that shakily to accommodate "improved" movement, the design of the game takes a hit, both in how it's perceived by players and by how players will accomodate to that spawning system (those who can't, kite as Berserker/Medic/Survivalist; those who can, aim).

As for vertical movement, well...the game was simply not designed around vertical movement, which is why most maps don't really feature it outside of technically having staircases, why fall damage is so killer in both games, and why shotgun jumps are extremely limited (either to handful of on-perk weapons at best, or forcing you to offperk a break-action shotgun to have that movement option at hand).

So when you consider the requests for KF3 to have more movement and more verticality in general, you have to consider what that means for the players and Zeds. Without typing an entire essay here on it, I will say that as you move more towards fast movement and increased verticality, you're straying away from Killing Floor's basic design principles (limited mobility for PCs and enemies, flat and simple area design to complement that).
When you have players and Zeds flying around at high speeds in open arenas that are designed with that movement in mind (because you have to design levels with that increased mobility to match; that absolutely would not work in something like the cramped confines of Biotics Lab as seen in either KF title), you have to ask yourself at what point is the game you're playing still KF? From the various online blurbs I've seen such as the ones in PCGamer, GamesRadar, and so forth, that is exactly the direction the dev team is taking.

In fact, what you're basically asking for with even more verticality and faster movement, double-jumps, dodges, dashes, etc. is something towards the "boomer shooter" end of the spectrum, namely Doom 2016/Eternal. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with those on their own merits, but that's not what most people who enjoy either of the KF titles play it for; the KF1 enjoyers play that for its ruthless difficulty and design encouraging tight teamwork, and KF2 enjoyers play it for the absolutely sublime shooting mechanics and cranking up the shooting gallery difficulties by mastering headshots against swift-moving (but not flying!) targets.

That doesn't mean the game can't be good. But from a mechanical standpoint, that would be a further departure from what I'd consider a proper KF title. (And I'm not counting Incursion or Calamity, obviously, just mainline entries.)
Obviously I'll have to wait and see. But given how much KF2 flew off the rails post-2017, I'm not holding my breath on it just yet.

You have deep knowledge about in game mechanics i give you that,did you know what in early KF2 development devs want to make game more dynamic what leads to the players move around a map often and not defense one spot an entire game? But they kinda fail with that,so i think with KF3 now they want fix this,improve,and make a real dynamic experience,let's be honest we just want a fun game no matter how the gameplay loop may be and that's devs must think about foremost,if the game just not fun doesn't matter how grounded (like KF1 or dynamic like KF2) gameplay was,KF1 is perfect team coop game for it's time but today it feels outdated,it's hard even to find servers with minimum one person,KF2 was fun coop shooter even now but TWI ruined it with bad content.You have any suggestion on how the devs can made KF3 a better game than KF1 and KF2? How they can improve the gameplay loop knowing that they lead more aggressive and dynamic gameplay rather defensive and grounded?