Anti-tank rifle vs infantry

[[-project.rattus-]]

*shakes finger*

No no. People need to stop spreading that misconception around. More speed =/= Cleaner pass-through. Lets do a comparison here

Your basic 9mm FMJ hits with about 520 J of force

a 14.5x144 mm FMJ round impacts with 61x the amount of force a 9mm round hits with; at 32,000 J

It's actually not primarily about the force of the impact, but on how the force is transferred to the body of impact.

So theoretically, a projectile hits you with 30 kJ, but, due to several factors, only loses 0.3 kJ on the target before exiting it again would do less damage than a projectile hitting with 0.6 kJ, which would transfer all of it's energy to the target.

Still though, I doubt that a PTRS round would "cleanly" pass a human...

 

[LemoN]

[QUOTE='[-project.rattus-]
Still though, I doubt that a PTRS round would "cleanly" pass a human...[/QUOTE]

Well, considering it's weight, velocity and the fact that it's armour piercing makes it highly unlikely that the round would tumble in time, let alone fragment or deform. So it will certainly pass through "clean".

Now, the thing to discuss here is what "clean" means for a round like the 14.5x114mm. Just for a comparison, it has nearly twice the energy of a .50 BMG.

 

[RedGuardist]

Just to add wee bit in the discussion about the effects of the 14.5x114 on humans. PTRD/PTRS used the same round as KPV/KPVT uses. And there are several accounts I remember example from Soviet-Afgan war, where people were literally torn in half by KPV or KPVT fire. I just could not find the accounts to be used as sources here. Sure the victims might have taken more than one hit, but I

 

[Colt .45 killer]

the PTRD, as mentioned by chekhov, was used by the occasional russian sniper in WW2. They were found to be less than precise for normal sniper duties, but at shorter ranges were effective. They were primarily used by snipers against fortified positions.

I read somewhere that Vasily Zaytsev was actually the first sniper to try the PTRD in a sniper role. I doubt this however

First no idea, but I do know he tried using it to test it out for accuracy, while also trying its effectiveness against fixed postions / sandbag bunkers. Worked well against the bunkers, but once again not the most accurate.

 

[Chekhov]

 

[SheepDip]

Well, thing is that after 1943 the Soviets pretty much ceased using the PTRS in it's intended role... since it was rather useless.

Not disputing that point mate, only that if there's a map with a tank, and an anti-tank soldier (him being the only AT solution) - I don't want the AT rifleman to run off shooting at infantry whilst the tank is elsewhere causing havoc amongst the infantry "because it's cool!!!".

However the weapon might have been used - it makes no sense at all for TWI to portray a sniper with an AT rifle...save for firing on dug-in positions, or armoured vehicles - a regular rifleman would be far more useful than someone with such limited ammo and mobility.

 

[LemoN]

See, I said after 1943. What comes after 1943? 1944!

HoS takes place in late 1942-early 1943, a time when AT rifles were still rather effective.

 

[Reise]

Well, I know back in the mod a close hit with a PTRD on infantry would cause them to do crazy things like backflips.

Ostfront kinda toned down that behavior and made it so people just drop.

I'd assume RO2 has a little bit of both for realism's sake, but I seriously doubt you'll be seeing people blow completely apart or anything like that.

So far I haven't even seen body hit decals in RO2 previews, so the general amount of gore in the game is still pretty tame.

 

[Mormegil]

Well, considering it's weight, velocity and the fact that it's armour piercing makes it highly unlikely that the round would tumble in time, let alone fragment or deform. So it will certainly pass through "clean".

Now, the thing to discuss here is what "clean" means for a round like the 14.5x114mm. Just for a comparison, it has nearly twice the energy of a .50 BMG.

I think you guys are discussing two different things. Lemon means the bullet makes it out clean, while rattus suggests it won't make a "clean" wound.

I'm pretty sure both of you guys are right.


Also, I think we all can agree a dug in MG nest would be a valid target for a PTRS / PTRD, at least if there isn't a tank in sight (or with a good angle).

 

[LemoN]

That's why I added the last bit.

 

[Placebo Cyanide]

Well, since the PTRD / PTRS will have limited effect on frontally on the Panzer IV

Source? I'm assuming you mean that it will not be able to penetrate the front armor. Even though this is more realistic, this is the first I'm hearing of the PTRD/S limitations in-game.

 

[Mormegil]

Source? I'm assuming you mean that it will not be able to penetrate the front armor. Even though this is more realistic, this is the first I'm hearing of the PTRD/S limitations in-game.

I don't know about in game. Just my guess.

 

[leguizamo2040]

It doesn't matter if soldiers didn't use the ptrd/s against infantry, because I'm planning in use it like that IN-GAME (in case there isn't any tank near by).

So, in the end, I hope to see some unique damage wounds from this kind of weapon.

 

[Forssen]

Maybe the anti-tank class could be present on some only infantry maps too. With the penetration in RO2, even if it's not the most effective weapon against infantry it might still be rather amusing to use.

 

[Mormegil]

Maybe the anti-tank class could be present on some only infantry maps too. With the penetration in RO2, even if it's not the most effective weapon against infantry it might still be rather amusing to use.

Maybe I'll try "Firefight" after all.

 

[DiedTrying]

If you didn't enjoy using the PTRD against infantry in Ostfront, you probably don't enjoy genital stimulation either.

I always had some fun with the anti tank rifles in WW2 Online. Was a fun alternative to hunting down tanks (when compared to the shamba bamba marathon runs through fields trying to intercept tanks...1 man vs tank) Usually you needed a cheat sheet of tank armor weak spots sitting on the desk in front of you while you waited for a char to roll by.

 

[Crni-Wuk]

As long as its not automatic and used as a sniper like in call of duty im good

Don't quote me on it as I don't remember where I have read it. But I can vaguely remember to have read once that some snipers experimented with the PT rifles using a scope on the AT rifles or something - But as said I have NO clue if that is correct maybe someone with real knowledge could shed some light on it ?. Also AT rifles made quite effective weapons against machine gunners and other infantry behind hard cover which could not be "penetrated" otherwise by usual small arms. At least inside of urban engagements.

Though I think a person hit by a 14 mm or 7mm bullet in the chest ... would it really make that much of a difference ? Dead is dead.

 

[I Faw Down]

Don't quote me on it as I don't remember where I have read it. But I can vaguely remember to have read once that some snipers experimented with the PT rifles using a scope on the AT rifles or something - But as said I have NO clue if that is correct maybe someone with real knowledge could shed some light on it ?

It looks like there is a PU scope attached to that rifle, if there was at least one that they experimented with that they took a picture of, there could quite possibly be more of them...

 

[Hypno Toad]

It's actually not primarily about the force of the impact, but on how the force is transferred to the body of impact.

That's what I said.

The higher energy and higher muzzle velocity a projectile, the more force will be transferred on the impact surface.

And the 14.5mm round is a round with an immense amount of energy. 12.7mm rounds are known to take limbs off with 20,000 J alone, and the larger 14.5mm round produces an extra 10,000 J on top of that.

Of course, not *all* of that energy will be transferred onto the surface (since the bullet doesn't stop) but that's such an enormous excess of kinetic energy that it will probably blow a hole in the person rather than just punch through. Though it may not be economically efficient to use such a large caliber round against such a small target, obviously such a round should work to great effect against soft targets when it is used on them.

I play Soviet AT a lot in ROOST. You will generally die before you run out of ammo, so I will generally take shots at MG or sniper emplacements; works to great effect in Hedgehog if you're assaulting the north-east house. I think the added gibbi-ness tends to discourage people from stepping into the same window.

I don't know about in game. Just my guess.

I seem to recall the PTRD in RO is rather useless against the front armor of Panzers II+. My guess is AT rifles will work to good effect against the lighter tanks, but the heaviest tanks will be fairly immune.

 

[Grobut]

Of course, not *all* of that energy will be transferred onto the surface (since the bullet doesn't stop) but that's such an enormous excess of kinetic energy that it will probably blow a hole in the person rather than just punch through. Though it may not be economically efficient to use such a large caliber round against such a small target, obviously such a round should work to great effect against soft targets when it is used on them.

That, and the human body is about 70% water, and if you've ever watched the Mythbusters eppisode where they tested how far different calibers would penetrate water, you'll know that the higher velocity the caliber, the more violently it decellerates in water.

They didn't have a 14.5 to test, but they did have a 12.7, and it's projectile barely made it past the surface before it disintigrated from the violent decelleration.

This should absolutely apply to a 14.5 hitting human flesh, all be it to a lesser extend (because it's hitting 70% water and not 100% water), which means the projectile should either deform or fragment from the decelleration, and that means it should be leaving one very nasty exit wound.