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Ammo thread

grahvem

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 15, 2006
29
3
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Hello.

I suppose this might have been descussed before, but i didnt find any topic taking up this one in particulare

I have just finished reading the memoriars of Josef "Sepp" Allberger, an highly decorated world war two german sniper, who I guess most of you are familiar with.

Though when reading through this I saw that over and over againt the russian marksmen began useing Explosive ammunition rather early in the war, first of all apperently to bring horror to the enemy and to do effichant kills.
Later the germans also adopted this type of ammunition (B patrone) for their snipers too.

So what I was thinking, how about an posebility for snipers to choose this type of ammonition when they head out into the battle? Say perhaps, together with their normal 25-30 rounds, they could have 5 rounds(not refillable unless looted from other snipers) of this special ammo that they could use?

I suspect that gamevise it could be rather interesting when a rifle round goes boom right beside you, and you know you are dealing with an enemy sniper?
This could perhaps trigger an slightly more effichant/powerful supression effect (as I assume will be implemented in the game), giveing the sniper say, an better edge in duels with normal infantry, and when faceing an enemy sniper, an even more edge when sending one of those rounds in through the slit in his hideing spot.

The change between ammo might be implemented with the same button as machinegunners changes barrel? as the B button is only used for that particular purpous. Hit B to load special explosive round.

It would make a rather interesting twist to snipers and the snipers around haveing an more interesting twist than simply haveing better sights/Scope.
 
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Colt .45 killer

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2006
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At ranges where the kinetic energy of the round has reduced to the point where a simple bullet would have less chance of being fatal an explosive round would be handy, however due to ROOST/HOS injury system ( dead when considered combat innefective IRL ) I doubt there would ever be a situation where you would require explosive ammo to get a kill that regular ammo couldent do....
 

hockeywarrior

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
3,229
1,982
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The RO Elitist's piano bar
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Was this really that common? I guess I never realized that snipers in WWII commonly used explosive ammo.

But I agree with Colt 45 -- given the fact that bolt action rounds are usually one hit kills anyway, I don't see a huge purpose in this.

Then again, maybe the hit detection system is so vastly different that survivability rates for rifle rounds are higher. So then maybe these kinds of rounds really would make a difference.

Either way sounds interesting. Perhaps it could be a an unlockable. This would ensure that it isn't super common while still offering a realistic gameplay option.
 

bobsynergy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 8, 2010
607
118
0
Was this really that common? I guess I never realized that snipers in WWII commonly used explosive ammo.

But I agree with Colt 45 -- given the fact that bolt action rounds are usually one hit kills anyway, I don't see a huge purpose in this.

Then again, maybe the hit detection system is so vastly different that survivability rates for rifle rounds are higher. So then maybe these kinds of rounds really would make a difference.

Either way sounds interesting. Perhaps it could be a an unlockable. This would ensure that it isn't super common while still offering a realistic gameplay option.
I like the idea a lot, but don't think of it being used for kills mainly, think of it like this.

The enemy just captured an area and they are now heading towards the next, you see a big group heading there and fire an explosive round in front of them which injures a couple (wasting bandages) and maybe kills one. The rest are prone and being very cautious to go forward and holds them back a little. Which gives you enough time to go back to the new area your defending to get ready and gives your team a bit more time to set up all their positions.
 

mo0nbuggy1

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 20, 2010
138
134
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Melbourne, Australia.
I don't think an explosive 7.62 would carry enough explosives to injure 3 or more people at once. And if it did, that would be crazy over powered, sniper battles would be little more then a COD tube fest.
In Stalingrad where food and water was a luxury do you really think every sniper would be using explosive bullets?.
 

bobsynergy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 8, 2010
607
118
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I don't think an explosive 7.62 would carry enough explosives to injure 3 or more people at once. And if it did, that would be crazy over powered, sniper battles would be little more then a COD tube fest.
In Stalingrad where food and water was a luxury do you really think every sniper would be using explosive bullets?.
Well maybe I am reading more into it then I should be (knowing nothing on types of rounds and that stuff) but my main point was basically it being used for suppression.
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
574
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Nargothrond
Would this have been a sniper or a designated marksman thing? Remember, ROHOS is modeling the later, not dedicated sniper teams.

Not that it mattered on the Eastern Front, since the USSR didn't sign it (and Germany didn't apply it to the Soviets), but explosive bullets were banned by the Hague Convention.
 

Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
3,623
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Denmark
No, they would not work like grenades with any real area of effect, a 7.62 projectile just can't carry enough explosives to do that kind of damage.

What they could do, however, is make a shot that normally woulden't be lethal a one shot kill (because in RO, dead = combat ineffective, and not allways dead), and an explosive tipped round could cause quite horrific damage that would render a shot in say, the leg, a serious wound that would render the guy combat ineffective.

And they would pack more of a psychological effect aswell, which was the main reason they where used anyway.


As for balance, i belive explosive tipped rounds would not be able to penetrate cover as well as a regular FMJ, and they might well be slightly less accurate at range aswell, they wheren't really ment for sniping, but for aircraft mounted machineguns.
 
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LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Prussotroll's Bridge
I once had a 50 round box of 7.92x57IS API rounds (also had black&red tips).

They're exactly what you describe here and blow up on contact/slightly after penetrating thin metal. They wouldn't even harm anyone if they aren't a direct hit and the explosion is nearly as large as a fist.
 

Felix Ostheim

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2005
1,051
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Ohio, United States
I've been reading up a little on this and from what I can tell this would be out of the question for the Germans as they apparently did not start using these explosive rounds for ground combat until February 1945. If someone could further clarify the history behind this I would appreciate it.
 

RedGuardist

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 14, 2006
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As for balance, i belive explosive tipped rounds would not be able to penetrate cover as well as a regular FMJ
You are correct there. For example the Soviet (RaZa) red tip incendiary rounds ment for ShKAS had really very poor penetration. There are even accounts when mentioned bullet was hit to helmet, but did not penetrate. The round exploded before penetration, so the victim survived usually with concussion, ringing ears and minore shrapnels wounds to the victims hands.

and they might well be slightly less accurate at range aswell, they wheren't really ment for sniping, but for aircraft mounted machineguns.
On the contrary actually. The rejected incendiary ammo for ShKAS was often used by Soviet snipers, since even when rejected from ShKAS usage it was very high quality and very accurate ammo, even more so so when compared to normally issued ammo. And like said, those rounds caused horrific damage in soft tissue. I should think that the German ammo with B bullets was pretty accurate too.


Like said, German and even more so Soviet snipers did use incendiary ammo. But like others too I just wonder if so called designated marksmen we see in RO:HOES had acces to incendiary ammo. I know that even regular infantry used incendiary ammo sometimes in Winter War (mainly rejected ShKAS ammo), but I don
 
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Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
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So basically, from what you say there RedGuardist, they would be a good option for long range shots, because they had good accuracy, but woulden't need a perfect torso/head shot, but regular FMJ's might be a better choice at short range, where penetrating cover could be quite vital, and it's easier to hit the torso or head anyway.

Sounds pretty balanced to me, even if the Krauts don't get them, because the Kar was more accurate at very long ranges and had better optics, so the Ruskies could use RaZa rounds to level the playing field at very long ranges.
 

Hypno Toad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 18, 2008
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Standing behind you
Im not so sure that this would have been that common. I think Hollowpoit rounds would have been the logical choice of many snipers given their rather kinetic-explosive nature, but Hollowpoint rounds are a war crime to use given the grizzly nature of the wounds they create.

I think if hollowpoints weren't used, then explosive rounds would be just as uncommon. If you're going to see explosive rounds, I think it would have been more likely to see HP in there. While soldiers may have made their own "explosive" rounds or brought their own hollowpoints, I'm sure they were not issued.


With the new hero system, though, I think you'd be able to get away with allowing Hollowpoints or explosive rounds to be used in small quantities.
 
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RedGuardist

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 14, 2006
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Im not so sure that this would have been that common. I think Hollowpoit rounds would have been the logical choice of many snipers given their rather kinetic-explosive nature, but Hollowpoint rounds are a war crime to use given the grizzly nature of the wounds they create.

I think if hollowpoints weren't used, then explosive rounds would be just as uncommon. If you're going to see explosive rounds, I think it would have been more likely to see HP in there. While soldiers may have made their own "explosive" rounds or brought their own hollowpoints, I'm sure they were not issued.


With the new hero system, though, I think you'd be able to get away with allowing Hollowpoints or explosive rounds to be used in small quantities.
Read my post again. Soviets snipers did indeed use quite a lot of incendiary ShKAS ammo, especially because of it
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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Differences in ammunition

Differences in ammunition

I thought I'd give this suggestion its' own thread, so here it is:

During WW2 the quality and type of ammunition issued by the Germans & Russians differed, esp. that issued for marksmen.

The German troops were issued with ammunition manufactured to high standards in both finish & performance, resulting in the consistent performance of their weaponry, something especially their marksmen drew good benefit from. Infact all their std. rifle ammunition seated well made boat tailed projectiles, providing a high ballistic coefficient and thus a very long effective range.

This was esp. true in the case of the Patrone s.S. (schweres Spitzgeschoss), which was a very well made 12.8 gram FMJ BT projectile, offering the highest ballistic coefficient (.593 G1) of any std. military rifle bullet then in service with any army in the world. It was provided primarily for snipers and machineguns in order to maximize their effective ranges, but also for regular infantry until late 42.

The regular infantry were issued primarily with the Patrone S.m.E. (Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern) up until late 42 and almost exclusively from there'on. The S.m.E is a 11.5 gram FMJ BT with a mild steel core, referred to as semi armour piercing, it provided better penetration performance than regular lead cored bullets, whilst not quite as much as the dedicated armour piercing bullets with hardened iron cores, designated Patrone S.m.K (Spitzergeschoss mit Kern). The ballistic coefficient was a repectable .480 G1.

The Russians on the other hand issued cheaper massed produced ammunition types manufactured to lower standards than that of their German counterparts, primarily because of a lack of quality control and to increase production rates. As a result Russian ammunition didn't always prove very consistent, and Russian marksmen often hand selected their ammunition for delivered supplies because of this.

The other problem was the performance of the design itself, cause like most other countries the Russians were still relying bullet designs dating back to the WW1. Case in point being the flat based spitzer. The std. Russian rifle ammunition was the Type L, which was a 9.52 gram flat based spitzer with a BC of .397 G1. As a result its' effective range was shorter than that of the German rounds, whilst cross winds also had a greater effect on its trajectory.

My suggestion is that this difference in ammunition design and quality be implemented in the game, lowering the dispersion of the German rifles to slightly lower than that of the Russian ones. But by amounts which only really show themselves at longer ranges, for example:

Marksmen K98k = 0.5 MOA
Regular K98k = 1 MOA

Marksmen Mosin = 1 MOA
Regular Mosin = 1.5 MOA

MOA being accuracy expressed in minutes of angle, 1 MOA translated into roughly 1" spread at 100 yard and 2" at 200 yards and so on.

I suggest this as a step further towards better realism.

As I understand it the ballistic coefficients of each projectile is currently being used already exclusively to plot in the trajectories, however what I am suggesting is that they also add in the effect of ammunition quality to the dispersion or cone of fire.
 

grahvem

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 15, 2006
29
3
0
I've been reading up a little on this and from what I can tell this would be out of the question for the Germans as they apparently did not start using these explosive rounds for ground combat until February 1945. If someone could further clarify the history behind this I would appreciate it.
On the other hand, I assume infantry on the ground who manuaged to get their hands on this from the russians used every round they got their hands on. (I know atlest I would)

As Hypno Toad said.

This could be an unlock for Hero classes as they say, a little extra firepower for those special men we will love and hate.

Still, I kind of support this idea as an unlock, since it is in the realism area of "could have happened and probably did".
This type of ammo was usually found in aircraft in the earlier parts of the war. Plenty of fighters and what not was probably shot down over the city, and if you where low on ammo and you found a wreck of a ME109 (or a bomber for that matter), why not head inside it and drag out the hundreds of explosive 7.92 rounds from the MGs inside.
Someone probably did this, on both sides, it is not the slightest unlikely concidering the dire situation in the city, just one of the many ways someone could take this type of ammo into the fight
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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German snipers did use explosive incendiary ammunition, the B-geschoss (Beobachtung), and it was very accurate, but they only used it to either scare the enemy by causing horrific wounds, or to light up stuff. Primarily they prefered the heavier Patrone s.S. however.

In addition to this the German snipers sometimes stole Luftwaffe V ammunition (V for Verbessert), which was ammunition featuring a 15% larger propellant charge and being available with some rather exotic bullet types, such as the P.m.K., which was an armour piercing incendiary round with a muzzle velocity of 905 m/s.


P.m.K. Patronen:


B-geschoss:



V ammunition was also available with the explosive B-geschoss, as-well as with S.m.K. and S.m.K.L'spur.

 
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