• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Plea from rockpapershotgun

The exact issue is that it doesn't work in Roost. At first your impressed perhaps by the graphical prowess that happens.
What I meant was that I preferred the style of ROOST's suppression system more. If they were to do something along the lines of increasing the duration of the blur effect from bullets whizzing by, I think the suppression factor would be greatly enhanced, maybe even throw in some high contrast imagery while being suppressed, so your vision slowly turns to a high contrast black and white under heavy fire or explosions (I know it sounds gamey, but I think it would fit in nice as an 'adrenaline feature' or something like that)
 
Upvote 0
At first your impressed perhaps by the graphical prowess that happens, but that effect wears off once you see its only bells and whistles.

well, isn't that pretty similar to real life? a green soldier is scared ****less the first time mg bullets wiz past his head or there's an explosion nearby......after weeks, months and years of experiencing warfare, wouldn't the effect wear off for veteran soldiers?

despite its shortcomings, at least with the system in ROOST you have the ability to learn how to compensate for the few suppression effects it has. however in DH, that potential does not exist as particular effects will always take enough control away from the player which he can never learn to compensate for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nimsky
Upvote 0
well, isn't that pretty similar to real life? a green soldier is scared ****less the first time mg bullets wiz past his head or there's an explosion nearby......after weeks, months and years of experiencing warfare, wouldn't the effect wear off for veteran soldiers?

despite its shortcomings, at least with the system in ROOST you have the ability to learn how to compensate for the few suppression effects it has. however in DH, that potential does not exist as particular effects will always take enough control away from the player which he can never learn to compensate for.
In RO you can have an MG peppering a window you're hiding behind and then pop up and take a perfect shot and kill him.

Now really... how many times in WW2 would a soldier have done that? Sometimes, sure, the fanatics... but would YOU do that?

DH's system makes that not possible. I really hope RO2 has something like DH's system. However, it would need to be eliminated entirely at point blank range with SMGs (so there would be no effect whatsoever in CQB situations where both players are in the open and exposed and firing at each other).

DH's system is hardly perfect, but it's the only way (well PR's system works well too), to make players play like they're actually afraid of death.

But anyways, didn't we already have a gigantic thread on this? And Ramm's already said they would have something similar to DH's but more "refined" or whatever.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Oldih
Upvote 0
In RO you can have an MG peppering a window you're hiding behind and then pop up and take a perfect shot and kill him.

DH's system makes that not possible.

That is true that DH's system works in that case but it has its shortcomings when the MG stops shooting and the enemy's heart rate goes almost instantly to normal and he can respond with an accurate shot. I would go ahead and add like 1-10 second period of heavy heart beat and big sway to the previously suppressed soldier.

I could imagine that after a 30-60 sec of mg shooting next to you would raise the heart rate a lot and make you piss ur pants and it would take a while to recover from this life-threatening shock. Ofc this is not how 100% of soldiers respond to this kind of action and having team mates around would probably lower this respond.
 
Upvote 0
In RO you can have an MG peppering a window you're hiding behind and then pop up and take a perfect shot and kill him.

but that's not the result of RO's suppression system, that's a fundamental flaw in the core mechanics of the weapon aiming/movement system.....and judging by the late alpha gameplay we've all seen, this issue already appears to be fixed.

Now really... how many times in WW2 would a soldier have done that? Sometimes, sure, the fanatics... but would YOU do that?

based on my (virtual) combat experience, instinct and rational decision making ability, if i determined that i was not in significant enough danger and could attempt to return fire without the risk of getting killed then YES i would return fire....this is the point i was making with my post which you quoted. the point is that in RO, players still at least have that freedom to make those kinds of judgment calls and still be able to effectively act upon those decisions whereas in DH, while you make have the freedom to choose to return fire, the artifically forced "spasms" placed on your avatar inherently restricts your ability to effectively act upon your decision due to the loss of control over the actions of your avatar.

additionally, it's the idea that the effects will at first create some "fear" that will affect your decision making, but just like in real life, you will eventually get used to those effects and thus no longer be as afraid of them as you once were. that's real player progression and gaining experience as it's the actual player who is developing, not just mechanisms that are placed upon his avatar to reflect theoretical effects that he "should" or "shouldn't" experience.

DH's system makes that not possible.

which is exactly why i disagree with DH's system.....explained above ^

DH's system is hardly perfect, but it's the only way (well PR's system works well too), to make players play like they're actually afraid of death.

it's not the only way.....it is physically impossible to create a fear of death in every single player. no matter how hard you try, some people are simply going to continue their style of play regardless of whatever you do to them to try and make them fear dying. the only way to solve that is with no-respawn, which countdown will solve. however since the majority of pub play will be standard territory mode with respawn, your only shot is to penalize players for being stupid when they ignore the risk factor involved in a situation like being suppressed by an mg for example, or make it more difficult to succeed in trying to do what they shouldn't be able to do. the ultimate penalty for stupidity would be death and in turn loss of individual respawns as opposed to being from a team reinforcement "pool". as for making it more "difficult", the important thing is that you cannot penalize a player by completely removing their control over the actions of their avatar (which is what DH does). forcing a player to shake takes control away from the player and removes his ability to think and act on his own accord. this is why again, i refer to the suggestions Nimsky has previously made. these suggestions accomplish the goal of suppression, which is to make it difficult for players to return fire while being suppressed without removing their ability to control their avatar's actions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nimsky
Upvote 0
if i determined that i was not in significant enough danger and could attempt to return fire without the risk of getting killed then YES i would return fire....

This is pretty much the reason I like DH's system, because it prevents ppl making a decision if they are suppressed or not.

In a video game where your death is pretty meaningless and there is no fear for it, everyone naturally determines that they are not in enough danger and try to snipe the MG.

Anyway, this topic is a matter of an opinion and the opinion depends on how much one is willing to lose control in favor for workable suppression.
Some are willing to lose more then others and those who don't want to lose any are playing MW, MoH, CS:S. DoD:s etc...
 
Upvote 0
well, isn't that pretty similar to real life? a green soldier is scared ****less the first time mg bullets wiz past his head or there's an explosion nearby......after weeks, months and years of experiencing warfare, wouldn't the effect wear off for veteran soldiers?

despite its shortcomings, at least with the system in ROOST you have the ability to learn how to compensate for the few suppression effects it has. however in DH, that potential does not exist as particular effects will always take enough control away from the player which he can never learn to compensate for.

the difference is that in one week of playing ROHOS you've probably seen more action than a real person in a lifetime (next to that you've died a few hundred times more than you would in a lifetime). Besides that, you have no fear of death, you don't like dying in a game sure but you're not scared of it either. I want to play a game where the average players acts more like the average soldier, rather than having every individual person being john rambo.

Meaning after a week for a player the effect of the bells and whistles suppression wears off where as it might take a couple of years before a veteran soldier can control himself well enough. Although even then, if there would be no dire need to actually return fire, you wouldn't do it either.

The effects of being suppressed can be minimized by experienced soldiers, but I doubt its suddenly like firing at a regular firing range. You probably learn to control yourself in that situations , but its most likely not the same as simply firing at a range.

I'm more scared of someone singing britney spears over voip than dying in RO (and that is never going to change). Which is why rather than making a player actually fear doing something, you can transfer the effects of fear on a human body onto the avatar.

Which is why for instance a controllable sway could be good, after a while you can learn to suppress the effects of the sway but it will always be there. So your performance while suppressed can get a lot better but its never exactly the same as at the range.

And again the whole point of suppression is to keep enemies suppressed that you cannot kill, suppression is used at ranges longer than you can really kill someone and its used against possible places where someone might be hiding. Suppression is not about the rationality of being hit, as when there is a rational chance of hitting the person shooting wouldn't fire to suppress but fire to kill.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NoxNoctum
Upvote 0

The thing is, we (who are against the flinching effect) are not implying any of those things.


  1. We are not suggesting that players should have fear of death (we know that that's not possible in a game).
  2. We are not suggesting that we want to be able to snipe MG's.
  3. We want the new suppression system to be effective at suppressing RO2 players, including ourselves (that's right, we don't have dreams of being ****ing Zaitsev).
Furthermore, you wrote that every player would get used to the effect within a week. That's just an assumption. If it takes only a week you might as well not add a suppression system at all. It should be more effective than that. If it takes weeks or months to get used to the system I'd be happy with that. If a skilled player wants to try to shoot that machine gunner that is suppressing him, let him... sure, a cosmetic supp-system allows players to shoot a machine gunner. But that doesn't mean that trying to do so will be easy. In fact, it should be difficult but NOT impossible.

Why should it be impossible? So far I haven't read a good reason.

Also, keep in mind that the majority of the RO player base isn't that good at the game at all, meaning most people would get quite easily suppressed.

Again: the PLAYER should get suppressed, not the avatar.

Perhaps you're not imagining what I'm imagining
: picture a machine gunner throwing lead down range at you. Dirt and dust is kicking up all around you, limiting your vision. This is a skilled player, he barely misses you and you see a tracer bullet zip by 10cm in front of your eyes, blurring the screen a bit. You dive behind cover, a set of sandbags. You use the first person cover system to take a quick peek at the machine gunner but he still has a bead on you so you keep your head down. He is difficult to locate because of the smoke coming out of the MG's muzzle and because he is camouflaged against a dark backdrop. Also, it's daylight so the muzzle flash is difficult to see.

The bullets fly over your head with LOUD cracks and snaps. Your screen blurs a bit every time that happens. Dirt, dust and pieces of burlap from the sandbag cloud your vision. The brick wall behind you is getting shot up, so add that to the mix as well. Surely popping up would mean instant death, especially now that 'pop-up rifleman' no longer works. But it looks like these sandbags are getting shot up pretty badly and are starting to leak sand so soon the bullets might penetrate. Let's try to shoot him.

Two things can happen:


  1. You pop up and - BAM - he gets you. This will happen most of the time when you try this. RO2's machine guns are much more effective now, so he deserved the kill.
  2. You pop up and take a quick peek. Bullets hit the sandbag and you get dust in your eye. Can't take a shot now, keep head down. Pop back up, aim the rifle. Locate the MG. You can hardly see him, but you put your sights on him as even more dust kicks up. He is almost invisible now. The realism of the visuals and sounds actually make you flinch IRL a bit. But you pull the trigger and you fire THROUGH the dust and kill him. Only the very best players can do this. You deserved the kill because you skillfully took out the MG, despite the difficulty of it.
Now I dunno about you, but I'd prefer that over a vibrating arms system any day of the week.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
The thing is even if all the crap in the world is flying around me with things happening on my screen. If I can see a pixel of the person firing at me I can take that person down. And that would be possible within probably 1 day of playing ROHOS. The thing is if someone is 1 pixel big its harder to spot and notice him but if you know he's there already like in most cases when someone is firing at you 1 pixel is enough to have a target to hit.

The only thing that works on me would be either when stuff gets in my eye, I get complete black vision till I've rubbed it out of my eyes. Or if the mechanical part of aiming gets more difficult.

The thing is when your vision gets completely removed it becomes impossible to hit someone as you cannot see him. There is no step in between you either see someone or you don't. And if your motor skills do not change then there is no added difficulty.

Where as due to stresses its likely that your heartbeat goes up, you're getting full of adrenaline, and your dexterity goes down. These things on normal people cause a loss of motor control. Similar things happen with low temperature (like shivering). You can control yourself with it, its just that your body doesn't do exactly what you want it to do. It doesn't make it impossible to fit a nut on a bolt it gets more difficult.

The thing is you can vary noise in the motor control from 0 to infinite, this allows you to tweak a system to find an optimal middle ground. With vision its not possible to find a middle ground as the opponent is either visible or he isn't.

If you see less of someone it makes it harder to spot someone. However most of the cases you know where someone was firing from in the first place, so you don't need to do the initial spotting you just need to fire a round at the target.

Again as it was my own suggestion to kick up dirt and together with the sand possibly getting in your eyes. I won't mind seeing that. But you need to remind that in all reality it restrains your character far more than some noise in the motor control system. As it doesn't make it only difficult to fire back it makes it impossible as you cannot see your attacker.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
The thing is when your vision gets completely removed it becomes impossible to hit someone as you cannot see him. There is no step in between you either see someone or you don't. And if your motor skills do not change then there is no added difficulty.
There are many things that could be done with sight to make it more difficult to accurately return fire rather than introduce a mechanical barrier to it, without resorting to completely obscured vision. You could blur the whole screen, parts of the screen, obfuscate parts of it to simulate dirt being kicked up into the eyes, introduce some kind of squinting effect, introduce moisture or a starburst lens-style effect, blinking, etc etc. As long as there is enough obscurity or deviation from the normal view, that would make using iron sights inaccurate, or at least impede the use of iron sights enough to make aiming more tricky, without significantly impeding the actual mechanics of aiming.

I'm not suggesting that any of these things should go into the game, and certainly the original post's idea of narrowing the view seems pretty redundant if it is inducing tunnel vision, but there are a lot of solutions without unnecessarily taking control away from the player. In some situations there might be a case for this to some extent, but it just seems like it shouldn't be needed.

I think we'll be surprised with how much difference bullet penetration changes the playing field with regard to suppressive fire though, so I'm more than happy to wait and see what the game has in store for us.
 
Upvote 0
The thing is even if all the crap in the world is flying around me with things happening on my screen. If I can see a pixel of the person firing at me I can take that person down. And that would be possible within probably 1 day of playing ROHOS. The thing is if someone is 1 pixel big its harder to spot and notice him but if you know he's there already like in most cases when someone is firing at you 1 pixel is enough to have a target to hit.

So you say.

I don't know if you are boasting to make your skills look better than they really are or if you really are that good, but like I wrote: if you can nail that kind of shot, you deserve the kill.

And, to reiterate: most people who play RO (and will play RO2) are not uber-pixel-shooting-hipfiring-from-20-meters-ROLadder-champion-type of players. Most RO players (pubbies) will never be able to nail a pixel shot like that, let's be realistic here Zets. Especially with the suppression system I described in my previous post.

No offense, but it seems to me you're projecting your own RO experiences onto the entire player base.

As for the stuff happening inside a soldier's body when he fights in a war, there are some things a game shouldn't model. This is still a game - yes it's a realistic one, but modeling muscle spasms goes too far. Besides, it goes back to the whole avatar vs. real player thing. By adding muscle spasms and stuff like that, you suppress the avatar and not the player. And for the fourth time, some soldiers are so calm under fire that they can still pull of incredible accuracy.

It's also a matter of principle IMO, it just doesn't belong in RO. TWI have always rejected artificial mechanisms like that.

In the Crosshairs podcast's bonus hour Ramm mentioned one of his frustrations about the original America's Army: cone of fire. He spoke about an in-house AA match being held at the AA offices between a top AA clan and a team of real-world SF operators. The SF operators used brilliant, perfect tactics but still ended up losing to the AA clan because they tried to win the game by using the tactics they use in real-life (semi-auto, long-range fire). The AA clan simply sprayed and prayed, abusing the conefire system, and whooped the SF guys' asses.

Considering that a vibrating arm system falls into the same category as cone of fire (both are systems that involuntarily cripple the player), I think there's a very small chance that TWI will add something like that.

But it looks like you disagree, so let's just agree to disagree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: -[SiN]-bswearer
Upvote 0
Considering that a vibrating arm system falls into the same category as cone of fire (both are systems that involuntarily cripple the player).

The key for me is exactly to not be like a cone of fire. As in my opinion every effect should be possible to overcome with practise and training.

A gun should fire as accurately as a real gun out of its barrel. But shooting should be made as difficult as it should be by adding recoil, your arms getting tired (sway) overall stamina (heavy breathing), and mental state matters as such we have the moral system (which will likely affect the reactions of being suppressed as well).

All effects you can compensate and overcome in the game with practise. And similarly should in my opinion be the case with suppression. The game shouldn't take control of your character, but it could induce a disturbance that a player will have to correct himself to make aiming slightly more difficult.

I'm much more a fan of that than actually having to gain levels in game to get a lessening of the blur effect. I'd rather not want the game to control my characters eyesight, as that is something similar to a cone of fire that can never be controlled by the player. However as I think that good suppressive fire is important that I'll take anything nearly that works even if the effects are more extreme than a distortion on a players motor system.

-----

Similarly to your example I could say blur is just like adding cone of fire.

Your eyes don't suddenly become crap when someone is firing at you. Stuff getting kicked up and getting in your eye is realistic but blurring isn't really more realistic than a loss of dexterity. If anything a loss of dexterity is what probably comes the closest to the real effects off suppression, as a loss of dexterity is an effect of fear (it happens as well due to sleep & food deprivation, extreme temperatures/weather conditions, or even with extremely bad morale). And luckily if its like sway you can overcome that fear through experience.

-----

If you compare me to most competitive players, I'm a low skilled player. If every player in RO:Ladder or in a clan can just kill someone without any hindrance from the get go. Then within a few months we'll be right back to where we are now suppression wise with Roost.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Perhaps if you were to do something special with the sound? Maybe make the bullet whizzing much more noticeable, the pings sound more distinct and for the rest of the action to decreciendo so that all you can really focus on with ease is the fact that you are in serious danger and need to move. Also that and a red screen after getting hit is more than enough for me XD. Really in combat, at least with my experience in paintball and airsoft is that when you are getting shot at you lose focus of your teammates and focus on staying alive/getting out of there. Not only would you add that sense of urgency, but with it you'd get the desired effect in the game of having the pinned enemy move or retreat, most likely retreat. XD! Cool idea!-JC
 
  • Like
Reactions: ERK
Upvote 0
I hope you all realize that real world weapons really do fire with a "cone" of fire. (Unless of course they're uber-laser guns.) ;) That cone of fire that so many games put in is to emulate the inability of a person in a typical battle field situation of being able to put rounds into the same exact spot with each shot. The problem I've had with that system is that they tend to massively over do it.

I say that because, I'm of the same opinion that if one doesn't like the cone of fire concept (a concept that puts the real world physics of human physiology, ammo, windage, and weapon differences into play) then how can one like a system that removes their ability to hold their (non-cone shooting super-precise) weapon on target? Its pretty much one in the same, imo.

imo, ROOST's current system of gun sway, rested weapon, etc. do a pretty good job of emmulating in the field conditions (the weapons may be a tad too precise, but it makes for a fun game). Just the mere fact that a skilled mg'er has got you pinned down, should (as Nimsky suggests) be incentive enough to keep your head down. You stick your head up, you die. (I hope that the pop-up shooter is gone. Seems I saw John's ppsh locked on to the same spot when he popped up over the sand bags in one of the Russian videos.)

Smoke from the mg works both ways. The mg'er is going to have a harder time deciphering just exactly where you are as his vision is obscured as well as yours. Not only that, on a map like Kriegstadt smoke would give away your position. If an mg'er has lost sight of me and firing 10 feet to my left or over my head, I', sure I'd do everything I could to rain down a my own suppressive fire upon him.

And as Morello suggests:
I think we'll be surprised with how much difference bullet penetration changes the playing field with regard to suppressive fire though, so I'm more than happy to wait and see what the game has in store for us.
Come game day, we may be more concerned about that than anything.

In short, I'd have to say that something along the lines of the current suppression with more sound and additional visual impairment (dirt, fragments, etc), would be my preference.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Fedorov
Upvote 0
Yeah, that's what I was referring to in my first post. When I read Ramm saying they were doing something along the lines of DH's 'flinch' mechanic it was like a punch in the stomach. I really hope whatever they decide to do doesnt take control away from the player like DH does.

I agree. That simply feels... awful. It reminds me of some of the not so good points about the ArmA series.


Yeah, well, you're entitled to your own opinion, but I've gotta ask.. since we are talking about the suppression effects, is it the 'flinching' mechanic that you and those on the sites you mentioned are talking about when you say that DH feels more realistic than RO? ..and if so, my next question would be.. have you been in many firefights yourself or at least watched some footage of real firefights and can say that's how soldiers really react when fired at?

I've never been shot at... but from what I have read and heard, often times soldiers are not even sure if they are being ambushed up front. They are often in confusion for the first few seconds as bullets go by.

So I don't think in real life you're struggling to keep your weapon in your arms the second a 9x19mm bullet goes past your head.


I'll have to dig up that article up about the USMC marksmen. As bullets were going past him and even hitting within feet of him, he was able to return fire and kill multiple enemies.

Never in the article did it mention that the mere presence of bullets going past his head made him nearly throw his rifle above his head like in DH. ;)

If anyone can find the article, feel free to post it.
 
Upvote 0