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Authentic Ballistics & Sniping

Unus Offa Unus Nex

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
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Hi,

I have a question for the developers regarding the new game:
Does this game feature bullet Ballistic Coefficients? And if so, is the data used authentic?

As we know both sides used different caliber ammunition both for their rifles, MG’s, pistols & SMG’s during the war.

The Germans as always preferred long range engagements, always trying to acquire a long standoff distance between themselves and the enemy, whilst the Russians on the other hand preferred the fighting to be up close and gritty. This is ofcourse also reflected in each side’s choice of main rifle ammunition types, the Germans preferring to use heavy & highly streamlined bullets with a very high ballistic coefficient for great long range power & accuracy, whilst the Russians made do with lighter and faster bullets as most other countries.

The importance of this during sniping:

During the war trained German snipers usually had their Karabiner 98k’s loaded with special 198 gr FMJBT sS (Schweres Spitzgeschoss) rounds with an unusually high G1 ballistic coefficient of .594 at a muzzle velocity of 755-760 m/s, to achieve optimum long range accuracy. While Russian snipers on the other hand didn’t have any special ammunition for their profession, having to make do with the std. 147 gr FMJ flat based spitzer with a G1 BC of .405 and a MV of 860-865 m/s through the long Mosin Nagant 1891/30.

On top of this German snipers enjoyed the advantage of being equipped with much better scopes (partially taken into account in the game so far I can see), the scopes from Zeiss, Dialytan & Hensholdt sporting the best optical clarity & brilliance in the world as-well as a wide field of view. The scopes weren’t as easily zeroed in as the simple Russian PU scopes, but they were however much more precise in fine tuning, and once zeroed in they could be taken off and put back on without the loss of zero; something no Russian scope mounting system could offer. The German scopes also had the advantage of being calibrated for the trajectory of just one round, the sS Patronen. (the most aerodynamically efficient rifle bullet issued during the war) In short this meant that the Germans snipers could, providing they had judged the distance correctly, simply dial in the range on their range adjustment screw featured on the top of the scope (and being adjustable in range from 100 to 1000 meters in intervals of 50 meters), and expect a first round hit. This feature significantly increased the chance of a first round hit at long ranges, and is in use with std. military sniper rifle scopes today.

In addition to this the Germans also fielded many different types of reticles for their scopes, the most commonly used was the std. German nr.1 post type reticle (as ingame), which was most common in the scopes of 4x power and lower. Scopes of 6x in power and higher however often featured reticles such as the German nr.8, as shown below (Suggestion: Adding this reticle to the game would add some diversity by not having the German & Russian snipers use the same type reticles):
zielsechsreticle.jpg
 
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That's the faster zeroing in of the PU scope I was talking about FlyXwire. However that documentary (which to my disappointment is rather amateurish for a number of simple reasons), fails to bring up the key advantages of the German mounting system;

1. The fine tuning of windage & elevation is much more precise on the German scopes
2. Once zeroed in the German scopes can be taken off & on without loss of zero
3. The German scopes have built in range adjustment based on the trajectory of the std. sniper round, removing the need for zeroing in the rifle everytime there is a change in range (significant advantage)
4. The German scopes are much more securely mounted and can be knocked hard without losing zero, whilst the Soviet PU scopes are notorious for losing zero at the slightest bump.

The German sniper rifle system (rifle + scope) was designed primarily for long range use, for which it was ideal, and must be said to be a much better specialist sniping platform than the Russian system. The german system was designed & built from the beginning to be a specialists tool for a specialists job, which sniping is. In short it was meant to be operated by trained experts, which the German Scharfsch
 
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Good point, from what I hear though the Mosin Nagant was preferred by German snipers for its simplicity, still it would be nice to see these features, the KAR98 having "better" optics but the Nagant having "simpler optics"

I have another idea which I will post a thread about.

For accuracy the trained German snipers (Scharfsch
 
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Since this isen't a dedicated sniper/hunter simulator, where only one or two shots might be fired, but an online wargame where 64 players are all going to be shooting at eachother constantly, there are limits to how accurate ballistics can be portrayed, you have to remember that the server has to accurately calculate every bullet that gets fired, and relay that information back to every player connected to the game, it's a lot of code that has to be crunched and bounced around in real-time, so the code cannot be several pages worth of calculations, that's way to much data to calculate on this kind of scale.

So no, don't expect this to be a balls to the wall 1:1 recreation of everything that happens to a real bullet durring flight, current tech just issen't up to the task yet.

What it will most likely be is an improved version of what the first game had, with the addition of bullet penetration, and that's deninately not a bad thing, because the ballistics in RO1 where some of the best out there for this kind of game, and an improvement of that is going to be more than plenty for our playing needs.


But one thing.. what makes you say Soviet snipers only had 147gr FMJ's at their disposal? i'm pretty sure they also had things like the 182gr "Type D" round, which had been around since 1930.
 
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Wow, sure takes a long time for posts to be posted on this forum, been at least 2 hours since I wrote my last post in here, and I'm still waiting to see it. This moderator approval thingy is abit to slow for comfort imo.

No worries mate, the approval system only is in use for the first 5-10 posts. After that... Happy Spamming! :D
 
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While Russian snipers on the other hand didn’t have any special ammunition for their profession, having to make do with the std. 147 gr FMJ flat based spitzer with a G1 BC of .405 and a MV of 860-865 m/s through the long Mosin Nagant 1891/30.

The Soviet snipers used also D-bullet ammo and also for example rejected incendiary ammo (ZaRa) meant for ShKAS MGs.


Note: (The highly trained scharfsch
 
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Here's a good read originally published in the Austrian publication Truppendienst in 1967, by Captain Hans Widhofner based on interviews with three WW2 German snipers.

During the interview they were named A, B and C, and all had served with the 3. Gebirgsdivision during the war.

A: Matthias H. from Tirol was from 1943 to end of war on the Eastern front, with 345 confirmed kills the most successfull sniper in the Wehrmacht.

B: Sepp A. from Salzburg was from December 1942 to the end of war on the eastern front, with 257 confirmed kills the second in the ranking.

C: Helmut W. from Styria was from September 1942 to the end of war on the eastern front, with 64 confirmed kills. (after he was wounded he was an instructor).

Questions asked:

What equipment did you use?:

A: K 98 with 6x telescope, G 43 with 4x telescope

B: captured russian sniper rifle with telescope, K 98 with 6x

C: K 98 with 1
 
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But one thing.. what makes you say Soviet snipers only had 147gr FMJ's at their disposal? i'm pretty sure they also had things like the 182gr "Type D" round, which had been around since 1930

The Type D round was not meant for sniper use, infact it wasn't until 1967 that the Russians had a dedicated sniper round roughly similar in performance to the German sS round. Furthermore the Type D round was hardly being issued until the 1950's, the main bullet type used being the 147 gr flat based M1908 Type L.
 
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