Tactics Last One Alive: Through the Fire and the Flames?

[nutterbutter]

Speaking of realism, who decided the SCAR/M14 can carry more ammo than the Bullpup (L22)?

Choosing an unusual amount of ammo isn't unrealistic. Just an unusual choice. More to the point, an non-researched choice.

 

[CandleJack]

Choosing an unusual amount of ammo isn't unrealistic. Just an unusual choice. More to the point, an non-researched choice.

This seems to be the case. Thank you for replying in the manner you did

 

[Zerotick]

Realistically the players would never carry more than five mags and one weapon bigger than a pistol, but instead work out some sort of deal with the trader and set up a regular supply line, hiring whatever noncombatants might be left (and there must be - the players are getting money from somewhere after all) to help fortify the best campground on the map and its three main routes to the nearest trader door, stockpiling ammo in several "circles" around the trader route to establish several distinct bases that the players could fall back on or use to protect their supply line. The goal would be to expand from there, raiding the zeds to wear them down and expand territory, using the command centre to coordinate intel and figure out where the patriarch is hiding so he can either be lured out, ambushed, or besieged into submission. Waves would take days if not weeks, and zed-eating would become culturally acceptable within the base if non-weapon supplies become a problem.

...yeah I don't really feel like playing that game either.

Best, Idea. EVER. You go Vae

 

[nutterbutter]

It could be considered cheating by way of exploit. If Tripwire wanted for you to have 1000+ fuel for the flamethrower, they would have allowed the Flamethrower to carry said amount of fuel. The ability to drop weapons was implemented so that you could toss a weapon to a teammate in case he needed it, not so that you can stockpile mass amounts of ammo at the garrison point.

The running mantra seems to be "Oh but you still have to buy the weapon", but what you fail to take into account is that most players (assuming you don't die every round) are swimming in cash once they buy their legendary M14. What else are you going to do with this cash that having to buy a second weapon is such a major burden? Restock in case you die? Oh right, nevermind, you've already been stockpiling so your weapons are right there.

While I don't personally consider it "cheating" per se, it is definitely exploiting a mechanic that wasn't intended to increase a player's ammo capacity. That said, cheating and exploiting are but a stone's throw from each other. If you need to stockpile flamethrowers to last the whole round, then I contend that you don't know how to play Firebug.

Very nicely put.

 

[9_6]

I can tell you've never been in combat. I would carry over double that for just my pistol.

So you claim you've been in a combat?
Cause I've been in the army you know and I've never seen more than one full spare mag.
In training we never had more than our 2 empty mags "symbolizing" full mags (not saying that I was in an actual firefight, thank god) on top of the one that is in your gun so it's 3 mags tops.
Ammo doesn't exactly weigh nothing you know.

It could be considered cheating by way of exploit. If Tripwire wanted for you to have 1000+ fuel for the flamethrower, they would have allowed the Flamethrower to carry said amount of fuel. The ability to drop weapons was implemented so that you could toss a weapon to a teammate in case he needed it, not so that you can stockpile mass amounts of ammo at the garrison point.

The running mantra seems to be "Oh but you still have to buy the weapon", but what you fail to take into account is that most players (assuming you don't die every round) are swimming in cash once they buy their legendary M14. What else are you going to do with this cash that having to buy a second weapon is such a major burden? Restock in case you die? Oh right, nevermind, you've already been stockpiling so your weapons are right there.

While I don't personally consider it "cheating" per se, it is definitely exploiting a mechanic that wasn't intended to increase a player's ammo capacity. That said, cheating and exploiting are but a stone's throw from each other. If you need to stockpile flamethrowers to last the whole round, then I contend that you don't know how to play Firebug.

Would you kindly point to a developers quote that states they have only added the drop weapon mechanic so you can toss a gun to other players or is that just "your idea" of how to use this?

Cause by that logic, using any game mechanic in a way you think it's not "meant to be used" would be "cheating".
Using grenades to open doors? Cheating. Exploiting.
Clearly, they intended grenades to be used for killing enemies and you should plan ahead better and use your welder to open doors.
How dare you exploit the fact that grenades damage doors instead of playing the game the way I command you to play it?

"Oh you silly", you might say, "if they wouldn't want grenades to open doors, why do they explicitely make it so only grenades damage doors in the first place?".
Well they also made it so you can pick a weapon you dropped up, ammo included.
If they didn't want dropped weapons to be able to be used to "extend your ammo", why do dropped guns keep their ammunition?
Just because that doesn't make "sense" to you/you don't like it, doesn't make it an "exploit".

 

[CandleJack]

So you claim you've been in a combat?
Cause I've been in the army you know and I've never seen more than one full spare mag.
In training we never had more than our 2 empty mags "symbolizing" full mags (not saying that I was in an actual firefight, thank god) on top of the one that is in your gun so it's 3 mags tops.
Ammo doesn't exactly weigh nothing you know.

I've read the americans phased out the M14 in favour of the M16 for this reason: the ammo is lighter and thus they can carry more of it.

Also, the M14 has more ammo than the L22. wut

 

[Compass]

Originally phased out due to high recoil and low ammo capacity. Probably 100 rounds in the field as opposed to 150-180 with M16, easily.

M14 is back in service as the EBR to fill the designated marksman role due to replace bolt-action rifles due to their slow fire rate.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Would you kindly point to a developers quote that states they have only added the drop weapon mechanic so you can toss a gun to other players or is that just "your idea" of how to use this?

So it's the lack of proof vs the lack of proof. Doesn't really hurt my side of it anymore than it hurts your own, since I don't see any developer quotes specifically saying that they want us doing that, either.

Problem is though, why would they intend for us to horde-up weapons? As I already stated, if they wanted us to have access to 1000+ fuel for one wave's duration, they would just increase the amount of fuel that the flamethrower can have. Meanwhile, the fact that Firebugs are the only perk who feel obligated to horde weapons brings-up the question of: If players are intended to stockpile weapons, why is only one perk being forced to do it?

I have no-more proof than you do of my theories, but I'd like to hear your support of why dropping weapons to have more ammo isn't exploitative beyond just "Well you have to buy each weapon".

If they didn't want dropped weapons to be able to be used to "extend your ammo", why do dropped guns keep their ammunition?

It could very-well be a simple over-sight. I've seen dozens of exploits in different games that exist simply because the developers didn't foresee an item being used in such a way that it would allow for the exploit.

 

[smilin]

It could very-well be a simple over-sight. I've seen dozens of exploits in different games that exist simply because the developers didn't foresee an item being used in such a way that it would allow for the exploit.

If I can show you how to logically conclude that it's deliberate would it change your opinion on this being an exploit?

 

[9_6]

So it's the lack of proof vs the lack of proof. Doesn't really hurt my side of it anymore than it hurts your own, since I don't see any developer quotes specifically saying that they want us doing that, either.

I'm not the one making the wild claims here.
Wait, I claimed blowing doors up is cheating. So I actually am.

Yeah, lack of proof doesn't hurt my side either then so stop using exploits plz.
Also throwing more than 1 grenade and then blowing it all up with a grenade launcher grenade for maximum damage is an exploit.
Grenades were obviously meant to be used one at a time since you have so few and their exponential damage increase is cheating.
Using the machete is cheating too.
Clearly was it intended in mind with the sole function to be sold for extra cash and not to be used for actual fighting.

In fact, using ironsights is cheating.
The lack of crosshair clearly means that you're supposed to know where the center of your screen is, ironsight is an accuracy exploit.

Meanwhile, the fact that Firebugs are the only perk who feel obligated to horde weapons brings-up the question of: If players are intended to stockpile weapons, why is only one perk being forced to do it?

Who says they need to do it?
Bad players.
So does that even make stockpiling an advantage worth mentioning at all then?
Sounds more like a bad habit to me.

 

[timur]

I'm not the one making the wild claims here.
Wait, I claimed blowing doors up is cheating. So I actually am.

Yeah, lack of proof doesn't hurt my side either then so stop using exploits plz.
Also throwing more than 1 grenade and then blowing it all up with a grenade launcher grenade for maximum damage is an exploit.
Grenades were obviously meant to be used one at a time since you have so few and their exponential damage increase is cheating.
Using the machete is cheating too.
Clearly was it intended in mind with the sole function to be sold for extra cash and not to be used for actual fighting.

In fact, using ironsights is cheating.
The lack of crosshair clearly means that you're supposed to know where the center of your screen is, ironsight is an accuracy exploit.


Who says they need to do it?
Bad players.
So does that even make stockpiling an advantage worth mentioning at all then?
Sounds more like a bad habit to me.

I have some things to add to that:

using pipes is cheating since they are meant to go on your head.

And also using a gun is cheating. Because there is supposed to be pipes on your head

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

I'm not the one making the wild claims here.
Wait, I claimed blowing doors up is cheating. So I actually am.

Yeah, lack of proof doesn't hurt my side either then so stop using exploits plz.
Also throwing more than 1 grenade and then blowing it all up with a grenade launcher grenade for maximum damage is an exploit.
Grenades were obviously meant to be used one at a time since you have so few and their exponential damage increase is cheating.
Using the machete is cheating too.
Clearly was it intended in mind with the sole function to be sold for extra cash and not to be used for actual fighting.

In fact, using ironsights is cheating.
The lack of crosshair clearly means that you're supposed to know where the center of your screen is, ironsight is an accuracy exploit.

*Deep yawn* Yes yes. Very cute. You know, it's interesting really. You guys give Nutter so much flack for supposedly being a troll, and yet when asked to back-up your side of the argument you instead resort to trollishly presenting more and more absurd "exploits" as-if it somehow supports your theory. I really don't even have anything else to say in reply because you have yet to give an actual response to my points.

Who says they need to do it?
Bad players.
So does that even make stockpiling an advantage worth mentioning at all then?
Sounds more like a bad habit to me.

Then why are you speaking so adamantly in their defense? If it's really as bad of a habit as you claim it to be, then steps should be taken to correct the habit so that Firebugs learn that they don't need extra ammo, they just need to learn to use the flamethrower better. Granted that "bad players do it" doesn't really mean anything for the "Exploit vs Legit" side of the argument, I just find it odd that you're defending their habit, I guess.

You also still haven't really answered the question; If dropping weapons to have more ammo during a wave was an intended aspect of the game, then why does only one perk (bad player or not) feel the need to do it?

If I can show you how to logically conclude that it's deliberate would it change your opinion on this being an exploit?

Go for it, so far all I'm getting out of 9_6 is proof that he's a hypocrite if he's ever accused anyone of being a troll.

 

[9_6]

...and yet when asked to back-up your side of the argument you instead resort to trollishly presenting more and more absurd "exploits" as-if it somehow supports your theory.

I'm sorry.
What was "my theory" again?
My whole point was that nothing supports your theory.
If anything, you just reinforced that so thanks.

If you think what I said was stupid then I was rather successful at showing you how your whole argumentation looks to me but sure, be lazy and write it off as "trolling".

You also still haven't really answered the question; If dropping weapons to have more ammo during a wave was an intended aspect of the game, then why does only one perk (bad player or not) feel the need to do it?

You just quoted the answer.
If you can't understand it, that's not my problem I guess and I won't lower my standards to meet yours.
But let me give you a hint: First sentence.

Go for it, so far all I'm getting out of 9_6 is proof that he's a hypocrite if he's ever accused anyone of being a troll.

You and nutter will get along just fine until you disagree one time.
And I want to see the post that is able to convince you at all.
It would have to be written by angels since you're obviously dead set to defend this to the end.


Besides, this has got to be the most hilariously over the top plain weird discussion I have seen to date.
Finding such a theme is an artform in itself, you have to give credit to nutter for it.

 

[smilin]

Go for it, so far all I'm getting out of 9_6 is proof that he's a hypocrite if he's ever accused anyone of being a troll.

LOL, aight fair enough. My best shot in the sea of unknown on dev being aware of this and having left the behavior alone deliberately...

Weapon stockpiling has happened before. Dev very specifically patched the behavior for one weapon. The other weapons have been tweaked separately to continue to allow them to be dropped without exposing a completely separate exploit. Had no tweak been made it could imply *either* an intent to leave alone *or* a lack of knowledge of the issue. Since a tweak to a similar behavior has been made it shows knowledge of the issue leaving "intent to leave alone" as the likely possibility.

The weapon in question was the pipe. Take a look at the release notes from October 29th, 2009 regarding tweaks and November 4th for the pipe.

[URL="http://www.steampowered.com/platform/update_history/index.php?skin=0&id=1250"][url]http://www.steampowered.com/platform/update_history/index.php?skin=0&id=1250[/URL]

So my take: Stockpiling weapons is not an exploit. It's a known game mechanic that some may have a perfectly valid but subjective objection to.[/URL]

 

[nutterbutter]

So you claim you've been in a combat?
Ammo doesn't exactly weigh nothing you know.

Yes, I've been in combat, but you misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that to shut other people down. Just pointing out that saying "5 magazines max" is ridiculous.

Cause by that logic, using any game mechanic in a way you think it's not "meant to be used" would be "cheating".

No. Using any game mechanic in any way that tilts the game is cheating. Dropping pipe bombs (one of the worst implemented ideas ever) is not cheating. Exploiting the ridiculous no limit exploit to drop 30 each trader wave is cheating. Buying a highly priced weapon then dropping it so someone else could sell it for full price was a cheat as well.

Using grenades to open doors? Cheating. Exploiting.

Nope. Grenades cause damage and the doors are damaged.

But funny you should mention that because Pipe bombs are hugely exploited. Put on doors because they don't damage doors. Will explode when a couple clots walk close yet are perfectly safe if the entire team drops a dozen grenades on top of the bomb along with a demo emptying an m32 as well.

Clearly, they intended grenades to be used for killing enemies and you should plan ahead better and use your welder to open doors.

Actually, if you planned ahead, you wouldn't need to weld doors.

How dare you exploit the fact that grenades damage doors instead of playing the game the way I command you to play it?

You are really going off the rails here.

Well they also made it so you can pick a weapon you dropped up, ammo included.

Not "ammo included." Almost all ammo magically attached. I've got no problem with people dropping weapons on the floor as long as the weapon has a single max load of ammo.

If they didn't want dropped weapons to be able to be used to "extend your ammo", why do dropped guns keep their ammunition?

Probably because they didn't foresee poor players cheating by stacking weapons. They probably wanted players to be able to run around and pick up dead player's weapons for survival. If someone found some exploit that allowed them to have infinite ammo for a weapon, would you consider that cheating? What do you think weapon stacking is?

Also throwing more than 1 grenade and then blowing it all up with a grenade launcher grenade for maximum damage is an exploit.

How is that an exploit?

Grenades were obviously meant to be used one at a time since you have so few and their exponential damage increase is cheating.
Using the machete is cheating too.
Clearly was it intended in mind with the sole function to be sold for extra cash and not to be used for actual fighting.

In fact, using ironsights is cheating.
The lack of crosshair clearly means that you're supposed to know where the center of your screen is, ironsight is an accuracy exploit.

Wow. You can't formulate an argument so you are turning into an ***. Lovely.

You also still haven't really answered the question; If dropping weapons to have more ammo during a wave was an intended aspect of the game, then why does only one perk (bad player or not) feel the need to do it?

I've seen many people do it. Stack flamers, m79, shotguns, many many xbows, m14s, SCARS, LAWs and AKs. I've even seen people plant xbows throughout a map so when they fight Patty, they can run with no weight, pick up an xbow, fire one shot, drop the xbow, then run with no weight again.

Go for it, so far all I'm getting out of 9_6 is proof that he's a hypocrite if he's ever accused anyone of being a troll.

It is looking that way, isn't it?

If you think what I said was stupid then I was rather successful at showing you how your whole argumentation looks to me but sure, be lazy and write it off as "trolling".

If you say so. Keep thinking you were "rather successful."

You and nutter will get along just fine until you disagree one time.

You are willing to swing at anything, aren't you?

 

[smilin]

Downrated wall of text without reading, sorry.

I warned us all on the first page:
"Some arguments are so stupid and obvious that debating them will just leave you dumber than before. I think this is one of those. "

 

[nutterbutter]

Downrated wall of text without reading, sorry.

Oh no! Anything but that. What will I live for now that my reply was downrated by someone with a closed mind. Oh, cruel world, you are not just.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

You just quoted the answer.
If you can't understand it, that's not my problem I guess and I won't lower my standards to meet yours.
But let me give you a hint: First sentence.

So basically, your "answer" to my query is to dismiss that Firebugs need to it. Obviously, I agree with this, but as you stated in another thread: "Did you... read what this topic is about at all?" The whole reason the thread got derailed onto this topic in the first place is because someone was saying that the Firebug should be doing it, which quickly turned into the debate of whether or not stockpiling weapons is an exploit or something the developers intended, or in simpler terms: Exploit vs Legit. You, however, seem to be arguing as-if the debate has to do with whether or not anyone needs to do it in the first place... which ironically just supports my theory of it being an exploit despite you trying to argue against it, because if nobody needs to do it, then why would it be an intended feature?

LOL, aight fair enough. My best shot in the sea of unknown on dev being aware of this and having left the behavior alone deliberately...

Weapon stockpiling has happened before. Dev very specifically patched the behavior for one weapon. The other weapons have been tweaked separately to continue to allow them to be dropped without exposing a completely separate exploit. Had no tweak been made it could imply *either* an intent to leave alone *or* a lack of knowledge of the issue. Since a tweak to a similar behavior has been made it shows knowledge of the issue leaving "intent to leave alone" as the likely possibility.

The weapon in question was the pipe. Take a look at the release notes from October 29th, 2009 regarding tweaks and November 4th for the pipe.

http://www.steampowered.com/platform/update_history/index.php?skin=0&id=1250[url]http://www.steampowered.com/platform/update_history/index.php?skin=0&id=1250[/URL]

So my take: Stockpiling weapons is not an exploit. It's a known game mechanic that some may have a perfectly valid but subjective objection to.

Finally, an actual response. In my history with games, I've seen plenty of exploits left in the game over the course of multiple patch cycles simply because the developers were unable to find a solution before then. Sometimes you'd be amazed at the things that developers can't really change in their game despite having programmed it themselves.

Take WoW, for example. In this game, you start with a default backpack that has 16 slots to hold items. You also have 4 extra bag slots to which you can equip extra bags. Back before any expansions, the biggest bag you could equip was 16 slots (not counting specialty bags). With the expansions however, bags have gotten slightly bigger to where you can equip up to around 24 bag space in each slot. Due to this, it's a common suggestion from players to be able to replace the original backpack to be more in-line with the bags that we can currently use. The problem? Blizzard is unable to make any changes to the original backpack without breaking a lot of other things in the game. You'd think it would be as easy as simply going into the coding, finding the part where it says the backpack is 16 slots, and changing that number to a 24, but apparently there's more to it than just that. So despite having been wanting to give us a bigger backpack for a couple years now, Blizzard has yet to find a way to do-so without having to patch-up a bunch of other things, too.

The point I'm getting at with that little story is this: While the backpack issue is hardly exploit-relevant, it does bring-up the point that perhaps Tripwire is unable to find a way to have your characters drop a gun while holding onto the ammo. Another possibility is that maybe they've tested with having thrown weapons contain only the one clip, but then found that when players die the same thing happens. Rather than fix the exploit at the cost of an intended feature, they again decided it was the lesser of two evils to leave the exploit alone. That doesn't make it any less of an exploit, of course, it just means that the fix is potentially worse for the game than the exploit itself.

They could very-well dislike the trend of players stockpiling ammo, but there may not be much they can do about it right now. As for why they wouldn't have said anything about it, because it would just lead to pointless server-based drama where people would be *****ing-out that poor Firebug endlessly, admins would feel obligated to "uphold the law" and start kicking people, and likely some other stuff that Tripwire probably doesn't want to inflict on the community because they consider the exploit itself to be the lesser of the two evils.

 

[timur]

What has happened to my thread?!

Jesus, I mean, I hate to whine, but this is a tad out of control.

Just like that Hunting shotty vs Pig conversation on my other thread! And at least that one had a happy ending followed by a re-railing.

But I am kinda getting just a tad annoyed at this MASSIVE derailing that has been transformed into some kind of debate-gone-flamewars.

I am perfectly willing to make a seperate thread for you guys if you want

I mean, if I knew this particular issue was such a hot topic, I would have made a thread on it a looong time ago

 

[9_6]

So much text but when it comes down to it, your whole argumentation is based on making a claim and then treat it as a fact until someone else "proves you wrong" but god forbid if I do the same, it's suddenly stupid, makes no sense and is trolling.
Says more about you than about me and you basically nullified your whole point with this but whatever.

Anyway, this is so grotesque and out there, I'll just say you win, weapon stockpiling is an exploit, whatever, who cares.
This discussion should not exist. Or at least it should not exist in this thread.

If you're that convinced that it's an exploit, why don't you report it to twi?
And, by all means, share the answer.
If it is indeed not intended by them, your words would suddenly have weight.

___________________

Also stockpiling flamers isn't really that much of a reliable way to solo a suicidal wave if your team dies anyway.
At least not as soon as pounds are around but scrakes might already be the nail in your coffin.
And like I said, good players don't need to stockpile. Nope, not even flamers.
Don't start what might end up to become a bad habit.

However stockpiling a crossbow somewhere just in case sounds like a much better plan.
Katana + xbow is pretty much the #1 solo combo in the game (well except for m14 + ebr but that's besides the point), if you're careful, it should be doable but it also depends on the map and, of course, your ability of managing to not get surrounded.

Oh yeah, husks are what you have your sidearm for. The katana makes short work of them, as well as some handcannon headshots.
How are those problematic?