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is RO:HoS pandering too much to the CoD crowd?

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zogthedoomed

Active member
Jul 13, 2006
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Chesterfield, UK
www.colourandnoise.com
#1
First off, I play Call of Duty World at War alot. I like it. Its a great arcade shooter. I also spent many years playing CS and a dozen or more other FPS. I was a game artist so we were surrounded by them.

RO though, is the one I keep returning to. Its totally unique. Its a more intense and rewarding experience especially when you're on a good server with a good bunch of players who are communicating and working well together. Artillery is raw and genuinely terrifying (unlike CoD which is actually a bit dull .. how do you manage that!), maps have a unique feel and while not realistic are more imersing and interesting than any of the more realistic games I've played and their scale plays a great part in this. And as for tanks .. well .. there's a few faults but there's no other game out there that does it so well, especially when you're team tanking. Yes maybe Halo and others allow more than one person in a vehicle but they fail utterly to match the experience.

But reading some of the bumpf about HoS I get worried. The persistant player stats and unique weapons only available to heroes .. its the same as we see in CoD and is completely at odds with how I see RO. Imagine if in RO we could all suddenly have any weapon we want, as in CoD? If levelling up gave you an advantage? Theres CoD servers that exist solely so you can gain XP and access the better weapons. Is that what it's about?

That feels so wrong for RO. RO for me is about team work. Yes theres only a limitied number of any one kind of weapon per squad and thats good. It means the MG guy has to support the rifle guys, snipers have to stop the enmy snipers, MG and officers, assault guys have to take the initiative knowing they can rely on the MGs to give support, the officer has to lay smoke and drop arty in JUST the right place to protect everyone else. Thats the beauty of RO. Cooperation is essential. It brings almost an RPG element were in order for the team to win, the individuals have to fulfil their roles. No its not unique in itself but it is unique in that it actually works. If the MG player doesn't do his job he'll soon know about it as the rest of the players shout out for support as they're dying like flies.

The CoD format also promotes the whole NOOB crap. At least in RO, everyone who starts is effectively on the same level as everyone else, other than experience. If you don't want you team to fail then you help the new guys, give them encouragement and tips. Instead, with the CoD format it becomes all about the individual and then NOOBS get hounded out and made to feel small by the ignorant selfish ones with egos who expect a free-for-all arcade shooter.

I'll hold my hand up and admit that I'm one of the old school RO players. I dabbled with the original mod and then bought the full game. I loved that most of the players were older and mature and the gaming experience was much the better for it. But then it changed as younger players joined from their CoD and CS games shouting PWNED and claiming to be LEET. The gaming experience turned aggressive, unpleasant and disrespectful then and I stopped playing for a while. I kept popping my nose in to see how it was and once it calmed down again and it was clear many of the older guys were still here I returned properly and am still enjoying at is much as ever.

SO I'm waiting for RO:HoS. Hoping its not prostituted itself to the mainstream. Hoping it still offers a unique experience, something so unlike the multitude of arcade FPS's out there that it still stands proud, unique, needed and wanted.
 
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#5
That was one of the best posts I ever read, because its very true, Its the teamwork and Interaction and the slow pace that makes the game so great, I bought Battlefield Bad Company 2 (Mistake!) and all there is is people running around like mice in an experiment, no one is chatting on the mic or even chat, but the game is crap anyway, no realism, not balanced, gun animations, damage etc. Everything about that game is crap, I hate it so much. The same for Call Of Duty, running around and no thought whatsoever, Mindless crap with no thinking or strategy or teamwork involved, that is why Red Orchestra is the best, and I think the new game will get the recognition it deserves, so I just hope Tripwire markets it well, because even the crappiest products in life, if marketed well will do good, eg. Call of Duty :). But I think the game will stay true to its roots and just make the things that are easy to do in real life easy in the game, which is making it realistic, I just hope that there is a lot of customization for servers. And I really hope tripwire takes advantage of the great Ideas and Suggestions that are in the Ideas and Suggestions part of this forum. The little ideas that tripwire put into their games is great, for instance, the way your gun pushes against the wall, seen in the GDC demo last august, I showed it to my friend and he was really impressed by this, its the things like that I like tripwire for, paving the way for other shooters, not following them.
Can't Wait for this one.
 
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#7
I would expect many of the perks for 'heroes' to be mostly aesthetic and have very little statistical benefit. slightly more accurate, slightly faster bolting, nicer looks ETC. Cod's changes through perks are night and day change; I think everyone so far has just assumed that Hero perks will just tell you who is an old player and who is new, Although that in itself could cause division....

Who knows, if they don't get it right, we can just endlessly complain:p
 
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#8
I think RO has worked so well because of how the game's weapon ballistics and handling performances were made, and that its battlefield maps could be designed large enough to emphasize scouting, and troops coming into contact, and have long-range fire capability and sniping too, as well as the usual CQB combat found in other shooter games.

These other shooter games which we often coin as *arcade* have in fact spawned their own language as counter-argument meant to deflect comparing their in-game action to actual combat......by calling snipers: campers, and run & gun action: classic gameplay.

I don't think levelling up (yes we can all be corrupted), is going to threaten ROHOS, as long as the gameplay continues to respect authentic weapon capabillities, and by having a good variety of maps available, where ranged-fire and markmanship can still play their roles on the battlefield.
 
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#11
Colt .45 killer said:
I would expect many of the perks for 'heroes' to be mostly aesthetic and have very little statistical benefit. slightly more accurate, slightly faster bolting, nicer looks ETC. Cod's changes through perks are night and day change; I think everyone so far has just assumed that Hero perks will just tell you who is an old player and who is new, Although that in itself could cause division....

Who knows, if they don't get it right, we can just endlessly complain:p
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This.

You're post is certainly not the first that is concerned about this heroes system, and you have written many legitimate concerns.

That said, the devs have come out and said that much of what is in the FAQ is hype-speak and over generalizes what will be in the game. They've basically alluded that most of the attributes of heroes will be purely cosmetic, such as your character looking differently.

They have also alluded to them having some minor gameplay bonuses like a possible morale boost to those around them, as well as access to more weapons. In my opinion, the latter type of bonus should only amount to being able to choose a Mosin or a SVT 40, ignoring the kit limitations on the server -- in other words, nothing too drastic.

In the end, though, we really won't know for sure until more details come out. Until then we'll just have to trust Tripwire not to sacrifice realism and historical accuracy for gimmicks.
 
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#13
illinifan said:
I just hope that the heroes system is dynamic. not "reach x number of exp points", but rather, say, the top 1% overall high scorers at any time, with more current scores being weighted greater than scores from a month ago
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That's a cool take on this illinifan!

Wouldn't that be interesting, and/or this ranking could also occur dynamically via each session joined (in-gane rank occuring dynamically as assessed within each MP session).
 
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#14
I feel somewhat the same as the OP. One of RO's attractions for me was the bent toward teamwork and a sensible approach of applying real world physics and characteristics to a WWII video game.

I hope the RO:HoS game is not "dumbed down" from a mis-guided idea that popular games need to be "out-of-the-box" easy to play, grasp or learn. In some forums threads I get the idea that some forum members are afraid the game will be too difficult for people to learn. The only learning curve I experienced in RO was learning that (as in war) if you expose yourself, you're going to die. There are 10 year olds that can punch more varied and different combinations of buttons on an X-box controller at one time than a dozen rhesus monkies playing Whack-a-Mole. They know every fps jump trick or set nade location in every game they play. They know every nook, every ammo stash, every secret button, and every glitch on every map.....and they learned them on their own. Don't underestimate a gamer's mental prowess.

For lack of a better term, I just hope RO:HoS retains some sophistication of game play about it. I'm of the opinion that trying to be all things to all people usually results in no one being satisfied. However, from what little I've learned from TW's presence and comments, I don't think we'll have much to worry about. But it doesn't hurt to let them know how you feel as a player.
 
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#15
Zennousha said:
All the posts that have been beaten to death should've already repelled any thoughts.
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Zennousha, about these beaten to death posts. Maybe you consider me a noob but I don't have time to read every post on this forum, and to be honest if it wasn't the Lead Designer or someone equally intimate with the bigger picture giving the beating and giving it today, then I'd ignore it. Anything else is supposition at best, gossip at worst.

I do have time though to read the official spiel (presumably proofed by someone in the publishers) and from that come to some conclusions. After all, thats what its there for. To convince us potential punters to part with our hard earned cash. Well the fallacy laden point of my post was that as a long term RO player it is not ticking many of my boxes and as a potential paying customer I have a right to air those feelings and concerns in any respectful way I am capable of, fallacy laden or not. As ex-dev I know how far marketing can stray from reality especially considering how fast designs and plans can change but as a paying customer who's not privy to TWI insider knowledge I can only go on the information they officially give out.

From what they have written about their game I can fallaciously suggest that either the game will not be what I'm looking for, that the spiel is a deliberate deception designed to attract a different market, that its based on a very old design document they've not updated or, most likely, a mix of all three.

The Devs have no obligation or need to answer my concerns as after all, whatever it turns out to be, its their creation and until its released whatever they tell us today could change tomorrow. But once the reviews start coming in, once I've played the demo and watched the player videos on YouTube, once I've queried players who's opinions I respect, then, I'll either buy it or not. Hopefully I'll make the right decision.
 
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#16
As for the many replies above, well its nice to know I'm not alone and that there's many more eloquent and constructive ways to voice our concerns and opinions. I do wish TWI had more control over the hype laden marketing but understand that the image of the game prior to release seems to be determined entirely by the publisher and, so posts would suggest, is very much at odds with the reality. Only time will tell.
 
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#18
Aslong as we can customize our servers to our liking like in RO1 and not be restricted to do so in any shape or form, then I will be a happy wee lad!

I'm scared that RO2 may be 'dumbed down' but I also have an never ending respect for the dev's, if they can make such an amazing game like RO1 then they can do it again and make it better then ever.
 
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#20
Ro HoS is going to be amazing and that is that.
There is no way that the creators of RO 1 wouldn't make an improvement to every bug that was in their first game. Its going to be sooooo amazing.

and I think the relaxed realism and realistic modes will divide the COD players from the RO players.

I for one am planning on never loading up a map in relaxed realism mode because I know that personally I have the most fun in a realistic environment which is why I joined a realism unit.


THE GAME will be GREAT.
 
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