Grenades

[Colt .45 killer]

To discourage the wanton throwing of grenades, allocate to each player a stash of grenades, these are not lost when the player dies, only when thrown. Each player, perhaps dependant upon class, receives a certain amount of grenades at the start of each map, more grenades can be earned by performing some objective. That objective could be capping, killing x ammount of enemies, defending, and or resupplies over time. There would be no maximum amount of grenades you could have in your player stash, however a player could spawn with no more then ~5 at any time. Also stolen nades would enter the players 'nade stash' (Although this is a technical duplication of grenades so it could be removed). (Players might also be given the option of how many grenades they want to spawn with)


Ro's system of grenades passed out grenades to each person as they spawned and did not penalize / reward them for their use or non use. Hence most players (Me included) addopt the stratagey of using your grenades first, then your gun; because loosing those nades is a sin against the great spam diety.

Not only does this encourage people to help cap ( they get more nades to spam with!). It also reduces nade spam as each nade actually counts.


Your thoughts?

 

[FlyXwire]

Ammunition used, of any sort, should always count.

 

[LogisticEarth]

The idea of assigning a number of grenades to a single play to be used over the course of the round isn't a new one. It's one possible solution, but the people who spam grenades are still going to spam grenades, this just puts a limit on how long they get to do it.

Really, I think the issue will be solved somewhat in the Countdown game mode, where grenades will simply be limited by the lack of respawn. For the traditional game mode, map design and a cap on the number of players on a map would help allieviate the problem.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I would have to disagree LogisticEarth, In current game modes you are encouraged to toss your nades quickly because they will either kill something, or you might die with them on you. People would (IMO) be less likely to 'spam' nades if they have a set ammount, and even if they wanted to spam nades ( which would still happen somewhat ) It would not be a tactic that could tie up a part of the map for more then a few minutes tops (DANZIG BRIDGES )

 

[gauss_]

i like the idea of every player spawns only at the first time with nades and after that he doesnt get any. If the player wants more nades he has to go to the next supply point. To make nades more tactical there should be a nade limit for each team e.g. both teams get only a certain number of nades depending on map, historical facts etc .

 

[<animal>INSTINCT]

there was already a pretty good thread about this started by Fedorov a while back, and I'll say the same thing that I said last time

have some nades be duds = good idea
free aim for nades = great idea
slightly randomized nade fuses = even better idea
don't have capzones in chokepoints(yes im looking at you danzig bridges) = best idea of all

and a side note, maybe remodel nades to have different damage patterns, so german sticks cause damage in a sphere shape with less damage as you get further away, and for russian nades, have individual pieces of shrapnel that are flung in a somewhat random pattern with each piece having the power of about a pistol round, so if you are hit by multiple pieces of shrapnel, you are way more likely to die, and it will allow for individual fragments to cause specific damage to body parts like legs or arms, rather than just general damage like in RO:OST

 

[LogisticEarth]

It would not be a tactic that could tie up a part of the map for more then a few minutes tops (DANZIG BRIDGES )

This is why I mentioned map design and player number limits. Danzig is a map that's designed for 32 players or less, and when it's played on 50 player servers it gets swamped.

If a player is spamming his nades to try and get cheap kills, I have a feeling they'll do it regardless of a limit. From a historical standpoint, your average infantryman had MORE grenades than are provided to you in ROOST. So cutting them back doesn't make sense in that regard.

In the later and larger RO maps, as well as most DH maps, nade spam isn't a problem. It's only on outdated or small (ie. not designed for 50 players) maps that you really get the nadespam problem. Danzig, Kaukases, Krasni Oktobyr, etc. This is why I think it's a problem of map design/player saturation.

 

[The_Emperor]

Limiting nades? Are we at CoD? Maybe even add a certain rank restriction to pick up enemy nades, huh?

Logistic Earth is damn right, the problem is first of the map size and also the players' knowledge of the map and also the general veterancy of the players.

If the map is designed for 20 players at max. and you squeeze 50 on the map it will be likely that you can't move as players block your way and nades will be devastating in such large groups.

If the players know the map very well, one could say its their home, you can be sure that they will know where to throw a nade and where to frag the hell out of the enemy. If unexperienced players form the main part of one side and so got like 5 very experienced players talking via TS, you'll can bet this gonna be hell for the new ones.

If players find themselves on a map they have played rarely or even say it's a totally new (realistic) map. As you play the progress of becoming a tough warrior goes on, so if you see a certain situation like a building from which's windows the enemy could lay suppressing fire on a square or street you'll likely have experienced players to throw a grenade in there. As grenades are limited to 2 at max now and eventually will be in HoS you can't throw a nade everywhere. The rate of nade kills will not be as high as on a map the experienced player knows. Still he will perform confidentially.


Limiting nades to 2 at spawn won't really work as grenades are an important weapon to drive enemy out of cover. The supply stock idea sounded got at first sight but it would only work in urban areas as no supply crate will be found in the middle of an Ukrainian wheat field.

But still, if those crates are located near the spawns or other realistic places. It always annoyed we to defend/attack objectives like a ammo storage and you couldn't resupply or switch weapons there.

About ranks and grenades, how about you can increase your amount of max grenades you can carry. When you perform good with nades you could earn some sort of medal, so you can carry 1 or 2 additional nades. So you can carry 3-4 grenades of one sort. This nade bag upgrade only should work once otherwise it gets unrealistic and too crazy with someone carrying around like 30 nades.

==> feels a bit like Terminator

, doesn't it?

Back on the nade spam. Yes it will still happen as you can't keep newcomers from throwing them at mass. But hey, we all learnt once upon a time in RO Mod v1.0-3.3 or Ostfront how to use them. (Some can't use them today ) And sometimes even experienced players tend to nade spam as they simply don't want to allow the enemy to run through a certain door or hole in the wall or alley etc. and this is tactically seen totally right. If people can't deal with the enemy fighting fiercly to prevent the enemy to use an area or way they shouldn't play the game.
Also nades sometimes function like artillery as it's not available on maps and too it would be overdone. Artillery won't help cleaning cellars or rooms. I know (also from my ancestors under arms in WWII) that throwing nades into rooms is a nasty and evil thing but the game shouldn't resemble a nice trip to the frontline like CoD does. It shall be nasty and roughly therefore nades shouldn't be castrated.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Hmm emperor; Im not sure you completely understood me. This would actually let you carry more nades at any one time, while discouraging throwing them everywhere.

Also the ideas for different explosion patters of grenades does sound nice.



But please : no rank = carry more nades, I suggested players be able to choose how many to carry, and that the cap they be given would really only be reached if you urinated nades like players do now on danzig. ( if you start with 10 - 15 ish, and get 1 every minute or so, and 1 for every few kills, and 1 for capping; then you wont run out unless you spam like a whore)

 

[Napoleon Blownapart]

the Russians attached hooks onto their grenades to so they would catch on mesh and wire and such that covered windows.... would be cool to add that as a hero option... but not more nades for the more vet players

 

[Colt .45 killer]

This is why I mentioned map design and player number limits. Danzig is a map that's designed for 32 players or less, and when it's played on 50 player servers it gets swamped.

If a player is spamming his nades to try and get cheap kills, I have a feeling they'll do it regardless of a limit. From a historical standpoint, your average infantryman had MORE grenades than are provided to you in ROOST. So cutting them back doesn't make sense in that regard.

In the later and larger RO maps, as well as most DH maps, nade spam isn't a problem. It's only on outdated or small (ie. not designed for 50 players) maps that you really get the nadespam problem. Danzig, Kaukases, Krasni Oktobyr, etc. This is why I think it's a problem of map design/player saturation.

After playing for a while and getting back into RO i feel you may have a point or be right, combining this with varying fuses/duds may be a better solution then what I submitted...

 

[The_Emperor]

Varying fuses, have you thought of the problems like bad manufacturing or warfactory sabotages? This means that you pull of your nade and it could instantly explode. This means that you could get a serverkick or even tempban just for the attempt to throw a nade!

I'd crash my keyboard if this happened frequently to me.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I get the feeling if they put zero fuses ingame; they would also have the courtesy to make it not count as teamkilling.

I think varying fuses were more along the lines of fuse X is supposed to have a 4 second time; the majority of grenades will be 3-5 seconds with under 20% of them being 1-3 or 5-10. Then with some even smaller percentage being duds or instabangs. Hopefully also some would 'hangfire' and not go off for as much as 30 seconds...

Does anyone know of any documentation on quality of ww2 grenades per country? ( possibly even per year) It would be nice to put the real ratios in-game providing they aren't absolutely horrible.

 

[Flogger23m]

Don't really like this idea.


Maybe certian maps and classes can limit the grenades the player can carry to one?

 

[Reise]

I'd hope each respective military had better quality control than to allow grenades off the production line with 1 second fuses.

I'll agree with map design being one root cause of grenade abuse. Danzig makes it especially easy because of the way the control points are set up.

 

[The_Emperor]

The problem lies mainly within maps and the UE 2.5. As the objectives that can be put into the level are quite limited.
Some may remember Kharkov map of the RO Mod, actually there were few to no buildings you could enter. This is a excellent example for worst case. Imagine the alleys being smaller so it's an infantry only map. If you have like 2 ways to an objective only you will have little chance to reach it before a nade catches you.
A real city in real war has several ways to get to an objective or area. There are no buildings that can't be entered just because the window shutters are closed or the door is closed. You simply blow it opne or kick it open. If there are (bit exaggarated) 1000 ways to an objective there won't be mass kills of nades in alleys or small streets. Mass grenade kills will occur of course when the nade lands in a room filled with players. But this is the idea of a grenade: room cleaning.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I'd hope each respective military had better quality control than to allow grenades off the production line with 1 second fuses.

I'll agree with map design being one root cause of grenade abuse. Danzig makes it especially easy because of the way the control points are set up.

One might think so; however Ive pulled apart russian milsurp ammo. In a box of 20 rounds of 7.62 x 39 rounds, the powder (supposed to be 24 grains of ssnf 50) was anywhere from 17 - 23 grains of powder. quality control with the soviet work ethic is a hard thing to achieve...