A question to the players

[Kabelis]

What is the purpose of changing trader to different location each wave?

In theory it is supposed to make you fight specimen at different places in each map, right?
That is supposed to give you a lot of replayability.

However, in practice what people do is find a nice spot to fight, kill the wave, and kite the last specimen to the trader.
Since it only takes 5-10s to buy your stuff, people have about 45s until next wave starts.
What does that mean?

Players have more than enough time to go to any location on almost any map (besides farm maybe) before next wave starts.
This means that 95% of the map space is effectivelly not being used.

When was the last time anyone tried to hold church in west london, for example?
Sure, you can do it for fun, but any better player knows that it's just not effective if you want to win at harder levels.

So they will always choose a better spot to fight.


My point?
Game should force people to fight at different areas.And that could be accomplished by lowering trade time, forcing players to fight near the area of the trader OR risk getting intercepted by specimen when trying to move to their favourite map area.


Basically, I love KF, but I feel there's a lot of unused potential in the current game setting.
In theory replayability in KF is way higher compared to let's say, Left 4 Dead (there you just move from point A to point B with minor variations), but in practice, people mostly just stay at the same spot for the whole 10 waves.
And you can't blame them, there's no reason *NOT* to do it.


TL;DR

About 95% of space in most maps is never used to fight, as those spots are just not good to fight specimen.
Because of that people just stay in the same spot for the whole 7 (or 10) waves, because trader time being as long as it is allows players to move to any spot on pretty much all the maps BEFORE next wave starts.
So the fact that trader changes her place every wave feels more like a gimmick, rather than a real game changing feature.

Game should force players to pick different fighting spot each wave when trader changes her place.

 

[Undedd Jester]

To be honest I agree with your point, but I dont like the solution, and to be honest I can't really think of a better one.

Only thing I can think of is removing the trader arrow until the last specimen is killed. However on big maps this will cause MAJOR problems. I suppose if there was some way of tracking the maps size to determine if this function were to be on or off it may work, but I have no idea if map size is already tracked, and if not how hard it would be to calculate.

Other than that, I got nothing

 

[Badbloody]

What is the purpose of changing trader to different location each wave?

In theory it is supposed to make you fight specimen at different places in each map, right?
That is supposed to give you a lot of replayability.

However, in practice what people do is find a nice spot to fight, kill the wave, and kite the last specimen to the trader.
Since it only takes 5-10s to buy your stuff, people have about 45s until next wave starts.
What does that mean?

Players have more than enough time to go to any location on almost any map (besides farm maybe) before next wave starts.
This means that 95% of the map space is effectivelly not being used.

When was the last time anyone tried to hold church in west london, for example?
Sure, you can do it for fun, but any better player knows that it's just not effective if you want to win at harder levels.

So they will always choose a better spot to fight.


My point?
Game should force people to fight at different areas.And that could be accomplished by lowering trade time, forcing players to fight near the area of the trader OR risk getting intercepted by specimen when trying to move to their favourite map area.


Basically, I love KF, but I feel there's a lot of unused potential in the current game setting.
In theory replayability in KF is way higher compared to let's say, Left 4 Dead (there you just move from point A to point B with minor variations), but in practice, people mostly just stay at the same spot for the whole 10 waves.
And you can't blame them, there's no reason *NOT* to do it.


TL;DR

About 95% of space in most maps is never used to fight, as those spots are just not good to fight specimen.
Because of that people just stay in the same spot for the whole 7 (or 10) waves, because trader time being as long as it is allows players to move to any spot on pretty much all the maps BEFORE next wave starts.
So the fact that trader changes her place every wave feels more like a gimmick, rather than a real game changing feature.

Game should force players to pick different fighting spot each wave when trader changes her place.

Your point make me think of a game that ive played yesterday on Waterworks . The trader are so far away from each other that we were forced to make the defence near the trader location (or, the safer spot near her).
It added a better survival spirit and that was quite fun, you put the defence in 10 secs and that's it .

Now, about your idea, we can't lower the trader time on certain map like said in the previous post (imagine walk next to the trader at 200 meter away in 30 sec x) ) .
Maybe, if it's possible, the maker of the map could define the trader time for each map... (20-30 sec for biotics, 30 for west, 45 for foundry, etc ..)

Or maybe make a Mutator who will ask the players the trader time at the beginning of the map .

What about a suicidce from the last zeds alive no matter his position after the survivors ? (if it's a clot - gore - crawler - stalker - bloat - banshee ... scrake? ) .

 

[Prodigy]

holding church got us to level 10 at suicidal, we had a level 6 zerker in the doorway, for some reason they never came in the back door, and 2 level 5 medics, 2 sharp shooters, and a demo.

 

[Kabelis]

To be honest I agree with your point, but I dont like the solution, and to be honest I can't really think of a better one.

Only thing I can think of is removing the trader arrow until the last specimen is killed. However on big maps this will cause MAJOR problems. I suppose if there was some way of tracking the maps size to determine if this function were to be on or off it may work, but I have no idea if map size is already tracked, and if not how hard it would be to calculate.

Other than that, I got nothing

Well, having in mind that people usually kite last specimen almost to the trader door, 30s would still be enough to buy whatever you need and setup a defense.
And it's not like you can't move after the wave has already started.


The most fun I have in KF is when I accidently get separated from the team and have to go through small corridors trying to reach team's position, hoping I don't get stuck anywhere
It really feels like a survivor game, where you have to keep on moving, instead of just barricading yourself and blasting the mobs.

And I do think it would be a good idea to change the trader time according to the map size.
It wouldn't be that hard for TWI guys to set the timer for different whitelisted maps based on their size, just as Badbloody mentioned.

Honestly, it would take like 10 minutes.
Biotics lab could have trader time set to 25s, while west london have it at 30 or 35, for example.

I don't think it would hurt the game, just make it more challenging and add another dimension to the game play.
Currently traders often just feel like a gimmick.
"Hey, look, this game has traders which changes places every wave, that is so cool.Too bad it doesn't add anything to the gameplay as you can kite last specimen to trader's door, buy your **** in 5s and have 50+ s to go whenever the hell you want"

 

[Undedd Jester]

It still doens't solve the kiting a specimen issue, all it means is you have less time to get to your camping spot. Don't forget that most of the time it takes a few seconds for the specimens to spawn anyway, so it won't stop returning anyway. In fact if anything, it encourages the kiting issue, because otherwise you wont have anywhere near enough time to get back
into most decent locations.

If on the other hand you had no idea where the trader was, or you could only have a guide to within a certain radius of the trader, then this prevents the kiting issue somewhat.

There are also times where you dont get the oppurtunity to kite the specimens back to the trader, like when you can't outrun the last 2 crawlers chewing on your *** as you try to get tot hte trader. If suddenly you have 30 seconds to get to the trader and your caught a long way away, you wont have the chance to even get there to buy your ammuntion = near guaranteed game fail.

As I say I agree with your point, but I hink this solution will hurt more than help.

 

[Badbloody]

Do you remember the Specs Vs mutators from Cheetah?

When all the team is in the trader room, the door is closed and then you can buy your supplies . Why not take this idea and modify it a little ?

Let's imagine > Got a 6 men squad . We're on Bioticslabs . We've killed the last zeds (gorefast + a crawler) and then we must rush the trader . It's at 30 meter far from us . We will have no trader time until the team gets inside the trader room (or 30 secs after the last zeds has been killed) . Then the trader time begins and we can buy > We got 15 sec ! We buy then we move as fast as possible .

The trader's door will stay open until the 15 secs end (i don't think that closing the door is a good idea, there will be a lots of ****tard who will block the entrance of the trader).

So, 10-15 sec to buy and that's it . But with this option, i dont know if it can be efficiency on little map (like bio) ...

 

[RoBoT]

The trader's door will stay open until the 15 secs end (i don't think that closing the door is a good idea, there will be a lots of ****tard who will block the entrance of the trader).

thats why there is anti-blocker mutator

I agree Kabelis about making players fight in different spots because I REALLY got bored of U place in kf-bioticslab.

so here is my suggest:
1. Mutator that contain few codes of versus mut and the anti-blocker mut.
2. When the wave starts, it will show amount of specimens in this wave like normally does.
3. After you kill them all, trader will open and anti-blocker will be on but after 5 seconds the specimens will come with an infinite respawns that wont stop until all players gets into the trader and then trader's door close (just like in versus mut).
4. During trader time, the specimens that left outside will die starving and you got 50 secs to buy stuff and then trader's door will open and anti-blocker will be off.
5. Then you will have 5 secs before next wave starts and then trader's door close (for late buyers).

and it will starts again like in [2.]

 

[[UIT] Akame]

@RoBoT
The idea has much merit but you are effectively cutting out the scavenging ability during trader time that made KF mod so fun. Unfortunately most mappers don't properly include weapon spawns unless they are something stupidly powerful, expensive, or for leveling. I would hope there is a better solution to the trader issue that would allow players to reasonably not have to visit the trader.

On the other hand, your suggestion would decrease pipebomb spam.

 

[Cub3r]

We could also create a Mutator which makes the Spawn infinite during the waves, with the Goal for people to fight through the Mobs to the Trader.

For example, you got to Defend yourself for 1 Minute, then there comes The Message of the Trader who has Set up anywhere on the Map. Then u got to fight to there until all Ppl are Dead or in there. When you got to there, just as RoBoT yet said the doors shut, u got time to buy your stuff and so on. After that, Trader closes doors and you'll again need to face Specimen for a certain time, which could also increase from round to round (so u need to stay 5 min in Wave 5, 10 min in Wave 10 for Example). After the time runs out, you'll get the Info where the Trader is and may fight to there.

Additional, the Trader Position should be in Relation to the Players positions, so they always have to fight a way through some Specimen before they reach the Trader.



For the Problem that some Rambo Bobs can make a whole Team fail by simply not going to the Trader, you could enable a function which makes you hide inside of the Trader invulnerable and unable to fight. After a certain time, i guess a single player cant stand the Spawns of a 6 man Game. (And if he does, pls implement a votekick >.<)


What do you think about it? Pls critize everything negative in your eyes, all i want is to find a good solution for the Problem ... Because yes, Biotics holy U gets boring with the time

Cub3r

Cub3r

 

[Badbloody]

I dont like the idea of the unlimited spawn pop until people join the trader =/ .

- Some guys wont go at trader (cause they want to ****ed up the map)

- It makes a lots more of money (and we already have too much money imo x) )

- What about the guys who died @ previous wave ? They will pop with their 9mm and would have to face up some scrake / siren ^^' ? It will push them to take SS and we have enough SS users imo ^^ .

- It's too ... linear =/ . If somebody dont need to go @ trader or if he want to find some weapon / item / other instead of getting to the trader > He will not be able to do that =/ .

I see too much black point to put it =/

 

[YoYoBatty]

In the kfmod theres was 1 trader in each map.
If there was more than one, both wud open.
There was no willow the red whisp leading to the TRADa.
There was no debug arrow showing to teh trader.
The trada neva talked.
The trader wasn't rly a big part of the game.

I suggest you read the moddb thread of the killing floor interview with Alex Quick and the other one with Alan Wilsonamn (I don't know how you spellz it cuz im lazy).

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

the simple problem is that people are going to find the most effective way to beat the game. the strategy of camping a specific defensive position, killing off the wave, leaving one to go to the trader, buy your guns and get back to the spot is in fact a great strategy to beat the game. it does require a good amount of teamwork and communication to ensure that somebody doesn't kill the last one or two before you get going to the trader. in fact, in the majority of pub games i play, i rarely ever see a team of pubs communicating enough to use this tactic successfully. imo, for those skilled players/teams that use the tactic effectively, they deserve to use it.

actually the best way to get rid of this "problem" (whether it's really a problem is debatable) would be for maps to offer more than one good place for teams to put up a defensible position. the game is all about surviving and if setting up at a good defensive position is the best way to survive, then i can't find any reason why to stop people to not do it. remember, multiple traders aren't there to stop people from always camping the same spot, but instead exist to get players to move and see the map. even with a "camp & kite", people are still seeing the majority of the map, it's just they decide they don't want to make a stand at other portions of the map. i mean this tactic is the best way to promote teamwork which KF tries to accomplish to begin with. maybe make it a little more of a challenge, but you can't just forbid people to use the tactic.

i like the idea about not having the arrow show up until after there are only maybe 5-10 left. at least then it's not an "easy kite" and the tactic would still require a good amount of teamwork, communication and quick planning. perhaps something could be added that if the game detects that there's only 1 or 2 specimen left and the team has been kiting it for a while, then some extra specimen harrass the team on their move to the trader.

also, for the defending tactic, if the maxspawn wasn't so week at just 32, it would make the defending portion of the tactic much harder thereby making the "kite" portion more of a reward for putting up such a good defense. additionally, if it's more hectic during the end of the wave defense, teams will really have to pay attention to successfully pull off the tactic and not kill everything before they start moving.

edit: since yoyo was posting when i was, he brought up a couple things i wanted to address. i never liked the red wave arrow deal that directs you straight to the trader. the little arrow up in the top right should be plenty. also, if there was a minimap put in the game that labled each trader location, then the message could just come up as "Trader Location A is Open", then players would know how to navigate the map without the magic arrow and it could just be removed.

 

[RoBoT]

- Some guys wont go at trader (cause they want to ****ed up the map)

then the door will close on them if they're late or ****ing up the map like u say. (same as in versus mut)

- It makes a lots more of money (and we already have too much money imo x) )

that could be true, and It would be great if this will be disabled during trader time.

- What about the guys who died @ previous wave ? They will pop with their 9mm and would have to face up some scrake / siren ^^' ? It will push them to take SS and we have enough SS users imo ^^ .

no, he will popup in trader room. (same as in versus mut)

- It's too ... linear =/ . If somebody dont need to go @ trader or if he want to find some weapon / item / other instead of getting to the trader > He will not be able to do that =/ .

I doubt that, because I havent seen anyone doesnt go to trader unless if he's late

 

[Anemia]

I doubt that, because I havent seen anyone doesnt go to trader unless if he's late

Me and (from what I've seen) other medics dont generally go to the shop every wave. Unless I have <50% of my armor left I think its a great opportunity to catch something to drink or similar^^. (just for the input:])

 

[KingJoker]

Me and (from what I've seen) other medics dont generally go to the shop every wave. Unless I have <50% of my armor left I think its a great opportunity to catch something to drink or similar^^. (just for the input:])

Uh me as a medic, i make sure i have 100% armor and make sure i have all my clips, as with healing. I will never usually allow someone to have under 100% Hp.

 

[CandleJack]

Uh me as a medic, i make sure i have 100% armor and make sure i have all my clips, as with healing. I will never usually allow someone to have under 100% Hp.

Same, i make sure i have full armour and maximum mags for my guns.



You just never know when you might need it.

 

[Olivier]

I will never usually allow someone to have under 100% Hp.

Yeah........................

 

[vealck]

So... how about that trader's door would be welded shut with tens thousands of points? Players would have to get there during the wave, because 60 sec trader time wouldn't be enough to unweld it. Also, this could encourage teamwork, as some of the players would have to start unwelding during the wave, with others covering their backs.

 

[RoBoT]

so... How about that trader's door would be welded shut with tens thousands of points? Players would have to get there during the wave, because 60 sec trader time wouldn't be enough to unweld it. Also, this could encourage teamwork, as some of the players would have to start unwelding during the wave, with others covering their backs.

omg no.
this is the most boring than holding U place in KF-Bioticslab