Teleporting Specimen "Specter"

[Kabelis]

I mean, if 1 enemy forces few people in the team to get a KATANA or a ****ing machete to deal with it, how is that bad?

OP suggests that it would have about as much HP as a gorefast (aka very low).
You could machete it in few hits even if you're a freaking sharpshooter.

So where's the problem?

 

[9_6]

They have a "reason to exist." You speak of the berserker and firebug as if no one plays them. That is far from the truth.

*le sigh*
Sharpshooter -> big targets (well... in theory at least)
Commando -> Trash zeds and assistance with bigger targets
Support -> Blasting away lined up, close by specimens and welding
Medic -> Healing and running away
Demo -> Big groups and far away fleshpounds

Firebug -> Burning trash zeds but being out-performed by commando and demo. No other function beyond that.
Berserker -> As soon as there's a halfway competent team behind him... watching specimens get shot, shooting specimens himself thus nullifying the need to be berserker or going rambo.

"Reason to exist": Doing a job no other perk can do nearly as good.
I think I explained that in detail before though, you just ignored it.

It doesn't depend on how it is implemented. It can be implement either way because it works that way now depending on the weapon. You need to decide because it is your specimen.

I can't decide it because I have no idea of the inner workings of killing floor, scripts, code and whatnot and how it actually, if at all, would get implemented into the game.
Concept. This is a concept.
Besides I already said let's just say they pass through.

I think you are confusing two different things; "making the game harder for everyone" and "obviously trying to punish sharpshooters who use the m14."

What you are unintentionally doing is actually forcing sharpshooters to use the m14.
...
By forcing the sharpie to carry a katana, you are forcing the sharpie to have to use the m14.

Except no. Not at all.
I may be forcing sharpshooters to, well, not shoot a target.
Especially not spamming at it. Like it is possible with the m14.
Also I still don't understand why you think because 1 enemy is resistant to bullets, everyone in a 6 man team now suddenly has to carry around a katana.
Not everyone has to be able to deal with every specimen. Teamwork.
1 is enough.

Besides, crossbow bolts have a higher base damage than m14 shots anyway, right?
You can actually deal more damage to it at range without it getting as close to you with a crossbow than with a m14.

Anyway, the absolutely easiest game I have ever played was 3 other medics and myself playing medic. Nothing ever got within 30 feet of us.

Sounds exciting.

That is what I thought. It look as if specter was designed to primarily screw with sharpshooter but you couldn't figure out a fiar way so you just took away every projectile weapon.

Now let communicate this in your own words: "It doesn't counter range because range spawns with a knife so range always has a possibility to kill it."

You think it is inconvenient. I think forcing people to swing an unperked knife for 4 seconds or more at a 6 player buffed gorefast on suicidal is a little more than "difficult."

Gorefasts don't get health for each player like scrakes.
Besides this isn't nearly supposed to be as common as a gorefast anyway.

I play mostly suicidal and I have yet to see anyone ask someone to change from playing a perk to another perk.

How many firebugs did you see?

---------

What happens if a Specter goes over a pipebomb?

The same as that happens if a gorefast goes over a pipebomb.
Except if it explodes, it gets less damage and teleports away from the impact.

---------

As for the idea itself, it's pretty brilliant but it would be beter if it could be killed with firearms - just make it very inconvenient thing to do

It can be killed with shooters and it is the inconvenient way.

 

[Badbloody]

Gorefasts don't get health for each player like scrakes.

Not sure about that :

[url]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Killing_Floor/Enemies[/URL]

Gorefast 250 (+37.5/pl)

 

[9_6]

My bad.
Well, this ones health shall be constant then so knifing doesn't take 20 seconds in a 6 player game.

 

[VidGameDude]

Yo i made it in 3ds max 2011 yesterday.

hope you like it man, i know i did...enjoy making it of course... ^_^

 

[Olivier]

Yo i made it in 3ds max 2011 yesterday.

hope you like it man, i know i did...enjoy making it of course... ^_^

You forgot the ''Don't sue me!'' part =p

 

[Badbloody]

Yo i made it in 3ds max 2011 yesterday.

hope you like it man, i know i did...enjoy making it of course... ^_^

Do you have a preview of it ? 8D

And about the spectre's hp :

Knife does 20 (Quick slice) or 35 dmg (Slow slash).

So, what about 110 hp + 8.5 hp / plr .

Difficulty...........................................Players

.............................1...............2.............3.............4.............5.............6...........
...Beginner..............55...........59.25........63.5........67.75.........72..........76.25........
...Normal................110..........118.5........127.........135.5........144.........152.5........
...Hard..................148.5.........160.........171.5........183.........194.5.........206.........
...Suicidal..............192.5........207.5.......222.25.......237..........252..........267.........


So, like that, only 3 heavy slash is needed to take her down in normal mode and 5 slow + 2 quick in suicidal .

It's hard to balance her hp taking count of the melee / weapons =/ . A xbow unperked user will take her down with 3 shot (alone / normal) 6 shot in suicidal , alone .

So, any opinion about those numbers ? (And yeah, it's a-poor-table-blog-stylized)

 

[brphoenix]

This is one of the best ideas I've seen suggested on this forum, if not the best.

Why I like it:

• Poses a decent threat to sharpshooters (since Xbow won't insta-kill it, automatic weaponry is almost useless, and shotguns not so useless because it deals a lot of damage in one hit);
• Demos can effectively shove them away with explosives (if they flee from the center of the explosion - which is the obvious and smartest thing to do, not to mention probably easier to implement - all they have to do is fire a nade in front of them so they'll go backwards);
• Firebug and Berserker have a new zed to take down.

Just a quick info: on suicidal, gorefast's health = (250+37,5*players)*1.75
Effectively, his health is approximatively 437,5 + 66HP per player.
Meaning it'll take 10~15 power strikes from a knife to kill one on suicidal solo, plus two per player.

Now, for some improvements:

• Have any power melee stun it, so anyone can (kinda) handle it if it's alone.

 

[nath2009uk]

Imo it shouldnt get stunned by melee.
If your going against one alone, Kite it > heal.
Not just stand and hold attack.

 

[[UIT] Akame]

Imo it shouldnt get stunned by melee.
If your going against one alone, Kite it > heal.
Not just stand and hold attack.

THIS.
As previously stated the spectre is very slow normally so there really is no need to melee stun it other than allowing them to be trivial at the end of a wave.

I do think that nutterbutter is misunderstanding the final impact of the spec will have on the game. From the look of it, spawns will be likely as frequent as a husk and not until later. I'm not even convinced that it will be common enough to get players to switch away from SS but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

In summary, a low health, low damage spec that bothersome to deal with and gives firebug and berserker more of a reason to be played.

 

[CandleJack]

THIS.
As previously stated the spectre is very slow normally so there really is no need to melee stun it other than allowing them to be trivial at the end of a wave.

I do think that nutterbutter is misunderstanding the final impact of the spec will have on the game. From the look of it, spawns will be likely as frequent as a husk and not until later. I'm not even convinced that it will be common enough to get players to switch away from SS but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

In summary, a low health, low damage spec that bothersome to deal with and gives firebug and berserker more of a reason to be played.

THIS.

What nutterbutter needs to understand is that this is an awesome idea that is pretty much perfect as is.

______________________

9_6 doesn't need to make it spamshooterEBR-friendly, and it is just what struggling firebugs and berserkers need.

in short, the Spectre is awesome.

(Spectre is in italics because that is the accepted spelling)

 

[nutterbutter]

Ok, here goes the long reply.

First of all, CandleJack, Oliver, Kinglol, and a few others, you really need to grow up. In the real world, people have discussions. Asking questions and helping (yes, whether you realize it or not, I am helping) 9_6 flesh out his new specimen is not nitpicking. No one thinks of everything at the beginning and refining anything through discussion is always better. Discussions aren't a competition. Disagreements aren't a bad thing. Stop looking at arguments as something you have to win; especially when they are about opinion. Or just go through life with the outlook you have now.

Ok, on to the spectre.

I mean, if 1 enemy forces few people in the team to get a KATANA or a ****ing machete to deal with it, how is that bad?

It is bad because it forces player to burn 3 weights point all of the time.

OP suggests that it would have about as much HP as a gorefast (aka very low).
You could machete it in few hits even if you're a freaking sharpshooter.

So where's the problem?

"Very low" is relative. A gorefast has very low hit points compared against a scar. Those hit points are considerable when compared to an unperked knife. Why would someone use a machete? If you have to burn the weight, which is my major point of contention, then buy a katana.

Again, the problem is forcing players to burn 3 weight points.

*le sigh*
Sharpshooter -> big targets (well... in theory at least)
Commando -> Trash zeds and assistance with bigger targets
Support -> Blasting away lined up, close by specimens and welding
Medic -> Healing and running away
Demo -> Big groups and far away fleshpounds

Firebug -> Burning trash zeds but being out-performed by commando and demo. No other function beyond that.
Berserker -> As soon as there's a halfway competent team behind him... watching specimens get shot, shooting specimens himself thus nullifying the need to be berserker or going rambo.

"Reason to exist": Doing a job no other perk can do nearly as good.
I think I explained that in detail before though, you just ignored it.

I didn't ignore it. I didn't agree with you have firebug and berserker have no reason to exist. Your examples above have flaws.

Support "blasting away lined up?" All classes should line up specimens. Support can handle trash zeds and bigger targets as well
Medic "Running away?" Seriously?
Demo "Big groups and far away flesh pounds?" Far away flash pounds?
firebug "Burning trash zeds but being out-performed by commando and demo. No other function beyond that." Bull. Firebug is a damage multiplier for every other class. A competent firebug makes the game easier for every other class.
Berserker "nullifying the need to be berserker or going rambo." Again, Bull. I just don't think you know how to play zerker if you actually think that.

The two most powerful classes in the game are Medic and Zerker. Easily. Sure, the other classes get additional bonuses from weapons but the medic and the zerker can use those weapons as well.

After the demo was added, no class really has a set purpose. Any class can generally be substituted for any other class. Any class can purchase any weapon, along with the absolute ton of money in the game, and can assume the role of any other class. I remember when berserkers were absolutely required for scrakes and flesh pounds. TWI decided that the game should no longer be dependent on a single class so they gave incredibly over powered weapons to everyone. So the general roles of the separate perks are blurred at best and non-existant at worst.

I can't decide it because I have no idea of the inner workings of killing floor, scripts, code and whatnot and how it actually, if at all, would get implemented into the game.
Concept. This is a concept.
Besides I already said let's just say they pass through.

You have to decide. It is your specimen. You know. You decide what it does, how it should act, what damage it does, and so on. If there is a technical limitation then work with it then.

BTW, I think that the bullets passing through is the right decision.

Oh, you still haven't answered my question about what happens when spectre is shot by a shotgun. Say three pellets hit him. He teleports after the first one, but do the other two pellets hit him?

Except no. Not at all.
I may be forcing sharpshooters to, well, not shoot a target.
Especially not spamming at it. Like it is possible with the m14.
Also I still don't understand why you think because 1 enemy is resistant to bullets, everyone in a 6 man team now suddenly has to carry around a katana.
Not everyone has to be able to deal with every specimen. Teamwork.
1 is enough.

In a perfect world, sure. But it doesn't always work like that. It almost never works like that The reaons why I think that everyone suddendenly has to carry katanas is because one enemy is resistance to bullets and very resistant to an unperked knife.

You keep mentioning teamwork, but I'm willing to bet the number of examples people supply are 75% solo play.

Besides, crossbow bolts have a higher base damage than m14 shots anyway, right?
You can actually deal more damage to it at range without it getting as close to you with a crossbow than with a m14.

I disagree. Spamming the m14 is still going to be the best way to start attacking this enemy.

Sounds exciting.

It was. It was damn difficult game. All skill. Lining up shots and shooting groups from a fair distance away. No one missed a shot and no one uses a scar/m14/or hunty.

Now let communicate this in your own words: "It doesn't counter range because range spawns with a knife so range always has a possibility to kill it."

No idea what your reply meant.

Gorefasts don't get health for each player like scrakes.
Besides this isn't nearly supposed to be as common as a gorefast anyway.

Gorefasts do. Earlier you stated that spectre would be as common as sirens.

How many firebugs did you see?

There is no doubt that the firebug is the least used class on suicidal. And that is a shame. Firebug is considerably more powerful than demo and I consider firebug to be a damage multiplier that enhances EVERY other person in the group.

I have the feeling that 90% of the firebugs have absolutely no idea how to play firebug. Those people fire 6 second bursts and hose down gorefast.

A lvl 6 firebug can wreak absolute havoc and makes the game easier for everyone else. Considerably easier.

Meaning it'll take 10~15 power strikes from a knife to kill one on suicidal solo, plus two per player.

And that is the problem. Think about the last suicidal game you were on and now image your shrpshooter and commando having to disengage from the game for 20 seconds to attack a specimen with a knife. Got that? Ignore everything else. On suicidal, you have 2 players completely disengaged from fighting for 15 - 20 seconds. How long do you thin the team lasts then?

What about a 3 player team that has 2 people having to fight for 15 - 20 seconds while the third has to fight the rest of the mobs?

What about a 2 or 3 player team that doesn't have a lvl 5 or 6 berserkers? What about them?

What about a small team that doesn't want a melee or firebug? What about them?

I do think that nutterbutter is misunderstanding the final impact of the spec will have on the game.

Honestly, I think I am the only person who truly understood the impact of specter. A specimen who is a bulletproof vest, spawns as often as a siren, has the HP (and bonus HP ) and damage of a gorefast. Which unless players burn a minimum of 3 weight points, they will have to use an unperked knife which could take well over 12 seconds to kill one. And what happens when a player, on suicide, drops out of the game for 12 or more seconds?

I understood what spectre will do.

Since then, 9_6 has lowered the HP of spectre, eliminated the HP bonus, allows bullets to pass through spectre. That is a much better spectre. I think he should consider lowering the health so that each spectre would die from two quick knife strikes.

Also, 10' per step seems quite large. Consider making the steps shorter?

One last thing. When creating anything, it is usually bad technique to create something to negate something else. It is almost always better to create something that benefits something. For example, you created specter to punish sharpshooters. But sharpshooters aren't the problem. The problem is the weapons. So designing a specimen to cause pain to the sharpshooters doesn't fix the problem because the sharpshooters will still have the weapons. A better process is to build a specimen that elevates fire and melee and then do a separate process to nerf SS weapons.

An example: Everyone hates SS spamming the m14. Designing a specimen that they can't spam, doesn't solve the problem. Sure, the SS can't spam that specimen, but he can spam everything else on the map. A better solution would be increase reload rate, reduce fire rate, reduce ammo, increase m14 and ammo cost, or increase recoil.

 

[nutterbutter]

What nutterbutter needs to understand is that this is an awesome idea that is pretty much perfect as is.

Not even close. Original spectre was a disaster that could wipe out and entire team in a matter of seconds. A disaster with future though.

Once 9_6 decided that the knife could kill spectre (which was the big sticking point) because spectre's health wouldn't increase to an obscene number, spectre started to make sense.

9_6 doesn't need to make it spamshooterEBR-friendly, and it is just what struggling firebugs and berserkers need.

Anytime you want to point out that I wanted to make spectre "spamshooterEBR-friendly", you let me know.

And if you are going to comment on or quote my words, I ask that you read and understand them first. I've never wanted to make spectre ss friendly. Far from it. I'm probably the person here who wants to nerf ss the most of all.

So if you are going to make accusations, all I ask is that you read what I type and make them legitimate accusations.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Its an interesting idea, but I do agree with Nutters concerns. Even though I play firebug most of the time, the sole reliance on the firebug/zerker to kill the spectre would create a large problem.

At the minute the only specimen I have no business at all attacking as the firebug is the fleshpound. The difference between that and this, is a fleshpound is a) very rare and b) there are 4, possibly 5 other perks well designed to kill it.

Since there are only 2 classes really cpapable of stopping this thing, and it would be a pretty common foe, it would be an extremely awkward foe to face.

My own idea for solving the issue (And this is literally off the top of my head): -
- Make it so the Spectre has health between gorefast to husk level, and a very large amount of damage say Scrake power attack level. (You'll see why shortly)
- Keep it so its massive damage reduction is triggered on bullets and such while teleporting, but it can teleport a total of 3 times within a minute or something.
- It can only teleport a maximum range of say 10 meters or so, so catching it early on you can use up its teleports before it gets to you.
- To prevent crazy fast flicking teleports while spamming it could be invulnerable to damage for a second after teleporting, then teleport on its next point of damage taken.
- Up close the specimen would teleport around you (removing the temporary invulnerability I suppose), and go for its power attack, but should you hit it first, it would teleport again around you before striking you, nullifying the attack.
- Once the Spectre has reached a target, it stay focused on that target.
- After those 3 teleports, the Spectre is vulnerable to the team gank, and would attack like a normal specimen

I would imagine this would mean a Zerker or Firebug would be the best class to take it on, and if other players had sense they would hang fire (Like I do on the fleshie) to allow their teammates to handle it. However in a pinch the specimen could be defeated by good teamwork, or a smart player.

This does however encourage kitng and firing classic fleshpound style so I dunno. HOwever writing that I do see why its a hard specimen to fit in.

 

[CandleJack]

Anytime you want to point out that I wanted to make spectre "spamshooterEBR-friendly", you let me know.

And if you are going to comment on or quote my words, I ask that you read and understand them first. I've never wanted to make spectre ss friendly. Far from it. I'm probably the person here who wants to nerf ss the most of all.

So if you are going to make accusations, all I ask is that you read what I type and make them legitimate accusations.

I see you misunderstood my post.

I will attempt to rectify that mistake so this won't be an issue.

 

[KingLol]

Kinglol, and a few others, you really need to grow up.

You should take your own advice, after all you DID suggest "Comfort Joe" which is by far the single worst suggestion I've ever read on this board - it was so bad it caused my computer to crash and uninstall windows when I read it .

On a more relevant note:

the problem is forcing players to burn 3 weight points.

There is no problem because it's not forcing anyone to do anything! It's a simple tradeoff: buy a melee weapon ---> lose 3 slots but be more effective vs spectres. If it's a 6-man suicidal team why not just give the medic a katana (quite a common situation anyway) and put him on spectre duty (assuming the team has neither a firebug nor a berserker)?

If EBR spam is still a problem then just give it a riot shield and make it headless to explain the bullet resistance.

 

[Thugdil]

Well I would say make it just as you said ( not this 3teleports-thing) and instead make it extra vulnerable to knife wielded by classes except zerker (if this is possible) or lower the HP, which I would not do too drastically because if it is confronted with 6players you should also think of the damage it will take from their weapons just if they keep firing... it is just a thing like a scrake for them which means it will take a lot more bullets than a normal zombie but it still is not that big a problem... so about half gorefast HP is ok i think
But whatever you do keep up this idea! It's great! *thumbs up*

 

[9_6]

After the demo was added, no class really has a set purpose. Any class can generally be substituted for any other class.

Oh really?
Replace all sharpshooters, commandos and support specialists in a suicidal game with berserkers, demos and firebugs then and see what happens.
Sure all classes are equal, some are just a bit more equal than others.

Oh, you still haven't answered my question about what happens when spectre is shot by a shotgun. Say three pellets hit him. He teleports after the first one, but do the other two pellets hit him?

Being shot can only trigger the teleport once.
If those 3 pellets hit it at the same time (which, I think, is not possible anyway because of random pellet speeds), there is only 1 teleport.

I disagree. Spamming the m14 is still going to be the best way to start attacking this enemy.

Care to elaborate?

It was. It was damn difficult game. All skill. Lining up shots and shooting groups from a fair distance away. No one missed a shot and no one uses a scar/m14/or hunty.

...because you all used xbows and deagles.
Exciting.

Earlier you stated that spectre would be as common as sirens.

And you have to have really, really bad luck to run into 2-3 sirens at the same time so they're not too common now, are they.

What about a 3 player team that has 2 people having to fight for 15 - 20 seconds while the third has to fight the rest of the mobs?

What about a 2 or 3 player team that doesn't have a lvl 5 or 6 berserkers? What about them?

What about a small team that doesn't want a melee or firebug? What about them?

You could very well apply that to scrakes right now.

What about a 3 player team that has 2 players hack away with katanas for 15-20 seconds while the third has to fight the rest of the mobs? What about them?

What about a 2 or 3 player team that doesn't have an xbow or a katana? What about them?

What about a small team that doesn't want a melee or sharpshooter? What about them?

Hell, what about a 6 man team that didn't buy any weapons because they're pacifists or something and now has to face one with 9mms? What about them?

The answer: They have problems. Because they're unprepared.

Honestly, I think I am the only person who truly understood the impact of specter. A specimen who is a bulletproof vest, spawns as often as a siren, has the HP (and bonus HP ) and damage of a gorefast. Which unless players burn a minimum of 3 weight points, they will have to use an unperked knife which could take well over 12 seconds to kill one. And what happens when a player, on suicide, drops out of the game for 12 or more seconds?

I understood what spectre will do.

You know, when I first played killing floor I thought the fleshpound was a horrible enemy idea since it just waltzes right in and kills the whole team without you being able to do much about it.
Then I learned how to deal with it and it suddenly became less of a threat.

It's the same here.

One last thing. When creating anything, it is usually bad technique to create something to negate something else. It is almost always better to create something that benefits something. For example, you created specter to punish sharpshooters. But sharpshooters aren't the problem. The problem is the weapons. So designing a specimen to cause pain to the sharpshooters doesn't fix the problem because the sharpshooters will still have the weapons. A better process is to build a specimen that elevates fire and melee and then do a separate process to nerf SS weapons.

An example: Everyone hates SS spamming the m14. Designing a specimen that they can't spam, doesn't solve the problem. Sure, the SS can't spam that specimen, but he can spam everything else on the map. A better solution would be increase reload rate, reduce fire rate, reduce ammo, increase m14 and ammo cost, or increase recoil.

Except that weapon nerfing has no place in a specimen suggestion thread.
So you're saying instead of proposing a specimen, I should've made another thread about EBR nerfing?
Like there are not enough of those.

I also didn't create it just with the sharpshooter in mind, I created it because no specimen whatsoever is truly resistant against projectiles.
Making a specimen strong against those automatically elevates everything else, which would indeed happen to be fire, melee and, to an extent, explosions.
Even if the EBR would (and possibly will be) nerfed, that doesn't mean this concept would then suddenly be obsolete.

------

As for suggestions to weaken it, it could maybe not teleport straight towards the players.
In fact one of my first ideas was just to have it teleport in random directions.
I left it out because it'd be considerably less of a threat that way and just be a mild annoyance.

Another idea was to only make it teleport if there are sparks coming from its helmet.
The helmet could spark for like 5 seconds, be out for like 1 second and so on so you have to time your shots.
Problem with that is, with a bit of timing, it'd be nothing more than yet another walking target, a nerfed gorefast.

I wanted an equivalent to what a siren or maybe even a swarm of crawlers is to a berserker.

Also health, damage, speed and all other variables are completely open.
I figure they're best established by tinkering with them once (if at all) the specimen is in the game instead of flat out making them up.
"As much health and damage as a gorefast" are just very rough approximate values.

 

[Nibe]

Sounds very interesting. But people want the challenge to the game and here it is: Buy a Katana or use 12 seconds @ suicidal

Nice drawing, looks creepy and in tone with KF.

If it moves around like voldo from soul blade then its a perfect addition. lol

VACUUM CLEANER MAN >8D Sounds like a 'ol Nilfisk.

 

[nutterbutter]

I see you misunderstood my post.

My bad then.

You should take your own advice, after all you DID suggest "Comfort Joe" which is by far the single worst suggestion I've ever read on this board - it was so bad it caused my computer to crash and uninstall windows when I read it .

If I did anything that uninstalled windows, then you should thank me.

Look, I don't care if you like any of my suggestions or not. But my comment about discussions here is that many people aren't interested in discussing anything. They just want to tell others how stupid they are and try to think of ways to score "points" by thinking of the most insulting reply.

Anyway, don't forget "Pat the Hairdresser." I'm digressing here, but no one seemed to like her because of her weapons, but honestly, it seems most people here don't care for anything unless it is a standard weapons. When looking at her weapons, she had the standard knife, Denial of Area grenades, new melee weapon (electrified whip with alt attack), defensive stance (group concussion attack), and a blowtorch. Pretty standard weapons but themed within her job.

Comfort Joe is the same. Comfort Joe is pure support class. No way can he solo, but he helps the entire group. Unperked melee weapon (machete), low level ranged group healing, grenades that distract and group enemies for other players like demo, flamer, and support to attack, and ability to buff other players. Nothing extremely powerful, but pure support.

Anyways, there is always a polite way to discuss something that promotes conversation (even conversation that leads to disagreement) and the jerk way to respond. Don't get me wrong. I sometimes get sucked into replying with the jerk method as well.

On a more relevant note:
There is no problem because it's not forcing anyone to do anything! It's a simple tradeoff: buy a melee weapon ---> lose 3 slots but be more effective vs spectres. If it's a 6-man suicidal team why not just give the medic a katana (quite a common situation anyway) and put him on spectre duty (assuming the team has neither a firebug nor a berserker)?

Because I don't think it is quite that simple. But that point is moot for now. 9_6 realized that specter had much too many HP and scaled him back.

If EBR spam is still a problem then just give it a riot shield and make it headless to explain the bullet resistance.

I don't care about the bullet resistance. Hell, make him immune to bullets. That doesn't matter. I'm a big believer of using the correct weapon for the mob and I am always switching weapons depending on what I am shooting. The big problems I had was a possible bulletproof vest (bullets pass through now) and try to kill him with an unperked knife (HP lowered).

Oh really?
Replace all sharpshooters, commandos and support specialists in a suicidal game with berserkers, demos and firebugs then and see what happens.
Sure all classes are equal, some are just a bit more equal than others.

I did use the word "generally."

However, I would take that challenge. I think a team of berserkers, firebugs, and demos would be just fine. Even without spamming pipe bombs. I hate pipe bombs.

Since both demo and firebug reduce visibility and are AoE weapons, they don't hamper the berserkers. Either they kill every small thing a distance away or they weaken it to the point where the berserkers have no trouble up close. Sounds like a good game.

Being shot can only trigger the teleport once.
If those 3 pellets hit it at the same time (which, I think, is not possible anyway because of random pellet speeds), there is only 1 teleport.

Right. I keep asking this because I want to know if the other two pellets do damage.

Care to elaborate?

Sure. As long as the bullets pass through and damage the mobs behind specter, then just keep firing through specter until the spectre is directly in front then knife it. Damage is still damage.

...because you all used xbows and deagles.
Exciting.

A good game doesn't necessarily mean being the sole survivor down to 3 health while trying to find one more box of ammo before the final specimens kill you. Don't get me wrong. I wish just about every wave ended like that.

However, playing a game that shows an unbelievable degree of skill from every player is fun as well. Doesn't mean I want every game like that. But being able to do it once is satisfying.

Just ask CandleJack. He is still talking about the game where he didn't have to kill anything. I almost had the mirror image of that game. Played SS in a 6 man suicide game and went almost the entire game without taking damage. A husk popped me from WAY down the hall with splash damage on wave 10 with about 8 mobs left.

And you have to have really, really bad luck to run into 2-3 sirens at the same time so they're not too common now, are they.

I've run into a group EIGHT sirens before on foundry. Yes, that was rare, but a group of 3 to 4 is common.

You could very well apply that to scrakes right now.

Not really. Scrakes can be stunned. I am far from being the best melee in the game (probably average), but I can simultaneously keep two scrakes stunned while killing other mobs around me. Talented melee can obviously do better.

What about a 3 player team that has 2 players hack away with katanas for 15-20 seconds while the third has to fight the rest of the mobs? What about them?

They are screwed. Any time a player has to disengage everything else for 12 seconds or more then the team is screwed.

What about a 2 or 3 player team that doesn't have an xbow or a katana? What about them?

Since you didn't specify, I am assuming you mean for scrakes and fp.

Hunty. SCAR. M14 (unfortunately). bullpup + ak47 for scrake. aa12

What about a small team that doesn't want a melee or sharpshooter? What about them?

They can still cope easily.

Hell, what about a 6 man team that didn't buy any weapons because they're pacifists or something and now has to face one with 9mms? What about them?

If they are pacifists, why are they playing?

The answer: They have problems. Because they're unprepared.

My main problem with spectre was forcing everyone to purchase a katana and lowering their weapon weight capacity by 3. Since spectre no longer gains health with additional players and can be effectively engaged with a knife then there is no reason to keep discussing this.

You know, when I first played killing floor I thought the fleshpound was a horrible enemy idea since it just waltzes right in and kills the whole team without you being able to do much about it.
Then I learned how to deal with it and it suddenly became less of a threat.

And the additional weapons and perk bonuses had nothing to do with it?

Except that weapon nerfing has no place in a specimen suggestion thread.

I didn't say it did. Don't get focused on my example. What I said was when designing a solution, it is a much better process to design to benefit something rather than to negate something. If some design needs to be negated or reduced, it is better to fix that specific thing rather than design something global that affects everything but only partial fixes the problem.

As for suggestions to weaken it, it could maybe not teleport straight towards the players.
In fact one of my first ideas was just to have it teleport in random directions.
I left it out because it'd be considerably less of a threat that way and just be a mild annoyance.

It would be. Teleporting towards the player is the right choice. That is also why I asked what would happen if it was attacking a player and someone shot it. That would be a strategy to pull spectre off someone. Of course, that would also put the spectre behind the shooter if close enough.

Another idea was to only make it teleport if there are sparks coming from its helmet.
The helmet could spark for like 5 seconds, be out for like 1 second and so on so you have to time your shots.
Problem with that is, with a bit of timing, it'd be nothing more than yet another walking target, a nerfed gorefast.

Yeah, that doesn't sound good.

"As much health and damage as a gorefast" are just very rough approximate values.

As long as you keep the health a constant so the knife is effective then I think it is a good idea.

One more thing... Just because I disagree with you that doesn't mean I am saying you are wrong or trying to prove you are wrong. I'm not. You have your ideas and I have mine. If we agree then that is great. If we disagree that is great as well. Nothing says we have to agree on everything.