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The Specimen Role Idea: what do we NEED?!

Well, I was just thinking about what roles we need/want for KF future specimens. I mean, there are just too many good ideas; we need to figure out which specific roles need to be filled maybe, instead of the other way around? It's just a new aproach the same problem.


so, I am asking for specific roles that need priority filling for a good specimen team. I mean, take L4D for example; while the original had fewer zombies, they had specific roles as team players, which makes them a superior team of deadly hunters.

Now, what roles do we need? What ways are the specimens weak? Where could they use some reinforcement? What are the gaps that need filling?

These questions should be the first on our mind. Then we make the specimen prefectly suited to fit. There are enough awesome zed ideas to fill a thousand pages, so we arent exactly lacking in those, just in the choices of which we need to implement.

So, without having a particular specimen idea in mind, please put down a specific place for a theoretical new zed could make the entire team more deadly. Put priority roles first, so we may agree on the most urgently gaping holes in the zed offensive.
 
id like to add that this list should NOT include anything that can fly or crawl on walls - both are not possible due to maps not being properly equiped for it.
THIS

Also, the want for additional specs is largely the fault of SS being able to deal with everything. Hopefully after the promised balance update things will be better.

The big thing that I would push is something that is either resistant or immune to headshots. This would improve the roles of perks that are being underused right now and dealing with it would be different from other specs. If they were short it could hide in mobs and change the plane at which players shoot.
 
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I present Blob http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=42618

Also, the want for additional specs is largely the fault of SS being able to deal with everything.

Check

The big thing that I would push is something that is either resistant or immune to headshots.

Check

This would improve the roles of perks that are being underused right now and dealing with it would be different from other specs.

Check

If they were short it could hide in mobs and change the plane at which players shoot.

Check.

Not only does Blob have your requested attributes, it has those attributes specifically for the reasons you mentioned.
 
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id like to add that this list should NOT include anything that can fly or crawl on walls - both are not possible due to maps not being properly equiped for it.

I want a specimen that can burrow underground. It could pass beneath any welded doors by going below them and then popping out from underneath players, Shoryuken style.

I present Blob:
blob.gif

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=42618
 
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Let me think.
Imo, there's still room for enemies that:

  • Resurrect a lot of times unless killed with fire (think "The Thing". Firebug-food)
  • Teleport (towards you or randomly when shot with bullets so they need to be melee'd/killed with fire? To counter everything that relies on shooting, like the sharpshooter)
  • Are immune to headshots (no head, head regrows etc)
  • Buff other specimens (making them faster, stronger, invisible, better in bed etc.)
  • Blind, slow, freeze or otherwise de-buff players ("aura", without dealing actual damage)

There is no room for:

  • Enemies that are so stupidly strong that they require a full 6 man team to be taken down (gets suggested all the bloody time, that's what the fleshpound is supposed to be. Just buff it to its old glory)
  • On that note, fulfill the exact same role as another specimen (like a husk, but with a rocketlauncher or a fleshpound, only stronger)
  • Enemies that are specifically designed to counter melee (by, for example, being flat out immune to it or having a range attack or leaving long lasting puddles of acid that reduce your mobility which you need to actually get to the enemy or, you know, all of it. Crawlers, sirens, husks, fleshpounds, there are more than enough melee counters in-game already)
  • Enemies that counter firebug (by being immune/resistant to fire. Firebugs got it rough already, give them a break)
  • Enemies that pull you out of cover ("Smoker". That would basically be an insta-death-sentence. Like being grabbed by a clot multiplied with an enraged fleshpound running towards you)
  • Enemies that are impossible to kill solo (think, something with as much HP as a scrake that charges towards you to grab you like a clot. Teamwork is good and well but if you're the last survivor, you should still have a realistic chance to win. This also includes enemies that you are required to shoot in the back to kill, it's just not gonna happen solo)
 
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Let me think.
Imo, there's still room for enemies that:

  • Resurrect a lot of times unless killed with fire (think "The Thing". Firebug-food)
  • Teleport (towards you or randomly when shot with bullets so they need to be melee'd/killed with fire? To counter everything that relies on shooting, like the sharpshooter)
  • Are immune to headshots (no head, head regrows etc)
  • Buff other specimens (making them faster, stronger, invisible, better in bed etc.)
  • Blind, slow, freeze or otherwise de-buff players ("aura", without dealing actual damage)

There is no room for:

  • Enemies that are so stupidly strong that they require a full 6 man team to be taken down (gets suggested all the bloody time, that's what the fleshpound is supposed to be. Just buff it to its old glory)
  • On that note, fulfill the exact same role as another specimen (like a husk, but with a rocketlauncher or a fleshpound, only stronger)
  • Enemies that are specifically designed to counter melee (by, for example, being flat out immune to it or having a range attack or leaving long lasting puddles of acid that reduce your mobility which you need to actually get to the enemy or, you know, all of it. There are more than enough melee counters in-game already)
  • Enemies that pull you out of cover ("Smoker". That would basically be an insta-death-sentence. Being grabbed by a clot at the wrong time is bad enough already.)
  • Enemies that are impossible to kill solo (think, something with as much HP as a scrake that charges towards you to grab you like a clot. Teamwork is good and well but if you're the last survivor, you should still have a realistic chance to win. This also includes enemies that you are required to shoot in the back to kill, it's just not gonna happen solo)

I second that.

A lot of exploits are caused by zeds not being able to reach the player, so basically we need specimens that CAN reach players on the oddest places.
1. Specimen being able to teleport short distances, therefor being able to reach players camping of top of or behind obstacles.
2. Specimen with a ranged attack being able to knock enemies back, which means anyone camping on a flagpole or similar would drop down to his death.
3. Small specimens being able to move in tight places (like crawlers).

Also, since SS can take out anything with one shot, we need a specimen which you cant kill with headshots (hydra).
 
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+1 to that whole post, 9_6. I especially like the first idea, admittedly in part because I'm a Thing fan.

Gears of War 2 had something a little similar too, a large brute who would often fall down after taking a few bullets and then get back up momentarily. The only way to be sure of his death was to blast him to pieces as he lay on the floor, or cut him in half with your bayonet. :D

It wouldn't hurt to make it so he could be beheaded or something while in torpor; it might overcomplicate things if a firebug-less group had to kill these guys every few moments, or bog things down if the group must kill the last 2-3 zeds over and over to open up the trader's shop. Not that I expect the idea to be implemented any time soon.

2. Specimen with a ranged attack being able to knock enemies back, which means anyone camping on a flagpole or similar would drop down to his death.

Thanks, just prodded me to imagine a zed tossing a newly triggered pipe bomb into a demoman's face. Lovely.
 
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Let me think.
Imo, there's still room for enemies that:

  • Resurrect a lot of times unless killed with fire (think "The Thing". Firebug-food)
  • Teleport (towards you or randomly when shot with bullets so they need to be melee'd/killed with fire? To counter everything that relies on shooting, like the sharpshooter)
  • Are immune to headshots (no head, head regrows etc)
  • Buff other specimens (making them faster, stronger, invisible, better in bed etc.)
  • Blind, slow, freeze or otherwise de-buff players ("aura", without dealing actual damage)

There is no room for:

  • Enemies that are so stupidly strong that they require a full 6 man team to be taken down (gets suggested all the bloody time, that's what the fleshpound is supposed to be. Just buff it to its old glory)
  • On that note, fulfill the exact same role as another specimen (like a husk, but with a rocketlauncher or a fleshpound, only stronger)
  • Enemies that are specifically designed to counter melee (by, for example, being flat out immune to it or having a range attack or leaving long lasting puddles of acid that reduce your mobility which you need to actually get to the enemy or, you know, all of it. Crawlers, sirens, husks, fleshpounds, there are more than enough melee counters in-game already)
  • Enemies that counter firebug (by being immune/resistant to fire. Firebugs got it rough already, give them a break)
  • Enemies that pull you out of cover ("Smoker". That would basically be an insta-death-sentence. Like being grabbed by a clot multiplied with an enraged fleshpound running towards you)
  • Enemies that are impossible to kill solo (think, something with as much HP as a scrake that charges towards you to grab you like a clot. Teamwork is good and well but if you're the last survivor, you should still have a realistic chance to win. This also includes enemies that you are required to shoot in the back to kill, it's just not gonna happen solo)

I second that as well. I am especially agreeing on the underlined and bolded ones.
 
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I've been saying we need a specimen that can teleport for a while now. It doesn't need to do sick damage (because that would be kinda broke) but Stalkers aren't very effective at getting in and around teams...mostly because of all the commandos, and because they're not super hard to spot. A specimen that can pop in behind people (SSs) and force them to turn around when they weren't planning on it, would notch things up a little.

Also, I think it'd be neat to have 'random' boss spawns during a wave. Once per game, when the match is 1/2 over, there's a chance for a super strong boss-type specimen to spawn. You'll only ever get one per game, but there would be several types/variants so you're never quite sure what you're going to get.
 
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yes, but a specimen that is resistant/immune to bullets? what happened to that part about " we need to allow the last man alive to survive"? I mean, most classes are bullet-driven, and forcing a massive transition to melee or fire would not so much help things as make it particularly annoying for anyone that wants to play more than 2 perks. Sorry:eek:

Also, I really hate to say it, but I specifically said NOT to make suggestions based on specimen ideas. The idea is to make the roles first, and therefore priority, with specimen ideas LATER, not the other way around!

Well, hypocritically, let me just suggest another competitor for the 'head-shot-resistant' slot, the behemoth. That was really hypocritical, but I just couldnt resist with all these others being mentioned.
 
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I suggest something completely and utterly terrifying in terms of visuals. And give it the ability to poison players, slowly (very very VERY slowly, for balance issues) killing players until they heal themselves.
Either that or the age old attack that everyone seemed to agree on before; something that can slow players for a limited time. This poses more of a threat to Medics who like to run away often, which with their ultra speed and buffed armour, shouldn't really pose as too much of a Perk-Ruiner.

EDIT: What about a Massively Big and Massive specimen that like, obstructs your shot and has LOTS AND LOTS of health. It's weakness would be that it can't attack in any way, only get in your way and be massively annoying. Might not work, but it's a new idea anyway. It should also have no head, making it pretty resilient to the more overpowered weapons. The blob idea could work. Also, make it overly weak against fire. That way, a Firebug would do wonders on your team on a harder difficulty.
 
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So basically something that can only be killed easily with fire, shotguns or a concentrated stream of bullets. (i.e. an entire mag from a SCAR or M14 fired non-stop or a coupla blasts from a shawty) it's essentially a health-regenerating creature. something that acts as a distraction rather than something that attacks with massive damage. The creature could be solo-able, but absorbs a lot of ammo and is kinda slow-moving (think of the bloat). Initial health changes with the number of players present, like fleshpounds and scrakes.

Balanced, IMO. It's solo-able, it doesn't have attributes similar to that of other creatures (except speed) and it blocks vision rather than kills people quickly.
 
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So what we need is not more zeds, but just more something???

I still think the rival company coming to capture the zed is a good idea and can lead to a KF 2.

Storyline-
With the fall of Horzine its competitor Vectorus (Im drawing a blank here) has been in testing phase of the zed soldier since before the outbreak. With negative results, after years of testing, Vectorus scientest have not been able to recreat what was done to create the zeds at horizine. It was decided to send a team of hunters in to capture specimens to be brought back for testing and possible cloning.

Vector Hunter:
The Vector Hunter is a Private military soldier employeed by the Vectous company wearing a suit designed to capture the zeds. The suit is resistant to bloat bile, saw, cleave, and grind attacks. It uses an experamental weapon called gr-87. Firing 2 battaries at the chest of the target making them immobile. The gun is experamental, so it has a tendency of exploding.

Edit: Just to add, they dont like players, so they will attack you if you kill the zeds :)
 
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id like to add that this list should NOT include anything that can fly or crawl on walls - both are not possible due to maps not being properly equiped for it.

The point is that we really do not need anything like that.
Sure, it would be cool, but game engine really couldn't allow it and it might take too much effort for TWI to program.

But we still need some sort of uniqueness in the specimen.

There are basically 2 groups of specimen atm:
1) Melee ones [Clot/Crawler/Stalker/Gorefast/Scrake/FP]
2) Ranged ones [Bloat/Siren/Husk]

Out of all the specimen the only truly unique ones are Clot (it can grab you, so it poses a big threat), Crawler (small and jumps) and 1 of the ranged ones (take your pick).All 3 ranged ones are almost identical.
Sure, Siren shakes your screen and doesn't damage armor, husk has slightly longer range, but they really don't have any truly unique touch to them.

And all melee specimen just charge towards you and try to maul you.They only differ in HP/Damage/Speed in essense.
Enrage for Scrake and FP are hardly unique and Stalker is like a weaker clot, as its invisibility is more like a gimmick.


Suggestions like "Hydra" or "Specter" are what I'm talking about.
We don't need to aim for some complex mechanics necessarily (like using physics engine to grab players and drag them etc.), but just add some extra flavour to the enemies.
 
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If at all we add a teleporting a specimen i think it shouldn't be able to teleport more then like 256 UU's ( or whatever).......... or less.

people even say the Patriarch had an experimental teleportation device and i actually believe he does... KIND OF. But Yeah im up for teleportation.

and also, the KF Monsters we have already cover almost any area a zombie could possibly have :( TWI probably cries thinking about new ideas :O

When you do something too good you make everything harder, because you have too make everything afterwards better. :/
 
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