real talk from a seasoned pro. perks need balance changes

[someguyhunter]

just wanted to say, this game prob the best 10 bucks i spent on steam when i got it on discount. love all the additions making this game greater than when it was released. nice work TW.

i am pretty experienced with kf. im all level 6, nearly filled up all the level 7 bars(although there is no level 7). i have soloed every official map on suicidal and beaten them with other players. 100% achievements also. might not mean much but if it has anything to do with kf, ive tried it.
besides, i only know a handful of people who have beaten all the maps on suicidal solo.
there are a total of 7 perks now. but a few need some changes so ill get into it.

1. sharpshooter. it has to be the first cause it is the best. the most op. the **** you use when you want to win. for a few reasons.
> crossbow. doesnt need any changes except maybe price. 500 would be fair. its THE weapon that defines sharpshooter. its cheap at 400 pounds and has pretty much the highest damage potential in the game. does about 5400-6000 damage at level 6 sharpshooter on a headshot. this means 1 shot on fleshpounds and scrakes on suicidal with 6 players. it means 2 shot on patriarch on suicidal solo if you can hit him as soon as he gets up from kneeling. best weapon in the game. it does what its supposed to do. headshot then profit. without this gun i would not have been able to solo suicidal.
>handcannons. one of the best secondary weapons in the whole game. very cheap with level 6 sharp. works well either single or double because having 1 just means less reload with same clip but more frequent reloads. works well with firebug or support or even demolitions. but in the hands of a level 6 sharpshooter it is god. you can kill clots crawlers and often stalkers in 1 body shot. gorefasts 2-4 depending on player count. and good damage to blow up bloats or sirens in an instant. needs no changes.
>m14. its fine. it does what sharp needed. needed a high tier weapon with less damage than xbow but faster.
>lever action. worst weapon in the game imo. sure it reloads fast but it has crap ammo. it does ok headshot damage at best. with the cost of the gun + full ammo its just better to get a xbow for like 50 more pounds.xbow has full ammo no matter when you buy it so you dont ever need to fill up expensive ammo.
>dual pistols. ok if you find em. ditch for hc. its fine tho.

~everything after this cannot match sharpshooter in power. they are just not as good.~

2. support. with full ammo it is the most expensive perk in the game. with AA12 being like 1200 and having 11 nades, it will drain your money fast. dont die. it needs some small changes.
>shotgun. its fine. its cheap and does well and is soon replaced. nice to buy once fill up then sell when its empty. really think it should have 100% penetration again tho. just cant hold up to scrakes and FP. needs more oomph.
>hunting. its fair. could use a tiny faster reload or damage to be of more use vs scrakes and FP without getting hit. which sharp can do from like half a map away...... with less hits.....
>AA12. little expensive. should be 750. started using AA12 with crossbow when i play support now instead of AA12 + hunting. im liking xbow better.

3. commando. one of the most unbalanced imo. ill get into it. other than gun balances, would be nice if commando had something extra. maybe more nades or run speed. would be good.
>bullpup. its fair. 50 clip size. doesnt seem to run out like it used to with 40 clip. still. damage is pretty pitiful on hard/suicidal with 6 players. could use a TINY damage buff. its great for anything bloat and under. it has one of the best sights in the game. easy to headshot cause of low recoil. bad vs siren/scrake/fp.
>ak. good ol ak. another decent backup weapon. good for demolitions. 37 clip is pretty fair. maybe should be 40.damage could be a bit higher vs scrakes and fp also. 1 full clip barely takes a FP to 60% life. then you are in a world of pain.
>scar. one of the best additions to the game imo. but needed the most balancing! its fast, has a slightly higher recoil than bullpup. decent sights and damage. but wtf 25 clip?!?!?! 1 full clip seems to do the same as 37 ak clips. it does more than ak in less time then is cut short by this low *** clip size. take a level 6 commando. buy a scar(which the price i think is ok.)go up to a fleshpound on hard. shoot it. see how bad it is for the highest commando tier weapon. considering commando takes a long *** time to level. should be better. my suggestion, keep damage, price, reload, and ammo the same. just make clip size 35. and ak 40. i think it is the best possible upgrade to a perk that desperately needs it.

4. firebug. nice to snipe with long range. decent to spray.
same prob as support. needs more damage to handle scrakes or FP without getting hit. FP can kill you in 2 hits in suicidal with full armor!!!! or give firebugs fire armor or some crazy idea @_@.

5. demolitions. its ok. smoke is a ****ty mess but i guess its fair for an explosive class.

*by the way tripwire, arent you going to fix law to demo clip size any time soon? why is support still giving it +3 ammo. move it it demolitions perk plz!!*

6. berserker. i think its pretty damn balanced. using katana + crossbow make zerker a good time. needs 1 thing back really. autoswing on katana. seriously, even the knife has it -_-*. if it makes people not want to use chainsaw, then make chainsaw do some damage . its so slow and cumbersome it should be doing way more damage to compensate for not using fast moving katana.

7. finally medic! yay almost to the end!!! it heals a lot with a mp7+syringe and using xbow for backup to survive and take out scrake/fp for munnies.
pretty balanced. cant think of anything bad about it. tons of survivability at the price of no damage buffs. its fair.

seems like im repeating this a lot. scrake and FP. being able to handle em without taking hits. i know its a recurring mesage but its a huge part of the game. people spend 1000-2000 pounds on commando or support or even demolitions. they are level 6 and getting owned by wave 6 or 7 when scrakes or FP start flowing in. when sharpshooters can kill em with a 400 pound crossbow in 1 hit.

so that is my observation and suggestions for killing floor. i have played this game since release on steam and i love it. many of the balance suggestions, I feel, will create a much fairer playing field and should let people have equal chances at survival and kills no matter what perk they choose.

comments are welcome.

 

[18672]

just wanted to say, this game prob the best 10 bucks i spent on steam when i got it on discount. love all the additions making this game greater than when it was released. nice work TW.

I second that thought [I pre-ordered for $15]. I think metascores.com should re-review Killing Floor; meta-critics gave it a average of 7.1/10 while players [over 600votes if I recall correctly] gave it a average of 8.8 or 8.9. Thats saying something.

 

[CandleJack]

>m14. its fine. it does what sharp needed. needed a high tier weapon with less damage than xbow but faster.

I stopped reading here.

How can you be experienced at KF without noticing that the M14 is mainly used by fvcking n00bs with no skills, and even then they spam it like a bullpup.

I'm sorry but you lost all past, present and future credibility with your support of the M14 as it is.

 

[SMIFF]

I agree with candlejack, M14 is insanely overpowered.
so is the crossbow.

its easy to solo suicidal with level 6 sharpshooter.

From reading your post, it seems you want to make everything as powerful as the sharpshooter, and thats just dumb, its boring.

I wouldnt call you a seasoned pro if you can only solo suicidal with a crossbow either.

 

[HaTeMe]

I stopped reading here.

How can you be experienced at KF without noticing that the M14 is mainly used by fvcking n00bs with no skills, and even then they spam it like a bullpup.

I'm sorry but you lost all past, present and future credibility with your support of the M14 as it is.

My thoughts exactly. "Coming from a seasoned m14 spamming nub" would have made a better topic title I guess.

...and yes we all know the perks are unbalanced, you could have done some searching/reading around the forums so youd know there IS a balance update coming, BUT it will prolly take several months if not a whole year or two before TW is able to release the update. If I havent been completely misslead.

with AA12 being like 1200 and having 11 nades, it will drain your money fast.

Why an earth would you buy 11 nades every round?

>shotgun just cant hold up to scrakes and FP. needs more oomph.

Its supposed to be his weakest weapon, a backup. Its not supposed to be able to take down scrakes and fleshpounds -_-

>hunting. its fair. could use a tiny faster reload or damage to be of more use vs scrakes and FP without getting hit. which sharp can do from like half a map away...... with less hits.....

Wtf.. Even YOU stated sharpshooter is overpowered. Yet, you want to bring all perks in his level? Something I noticed when reading your post further and further is that you want ALL weapons to kill fleshpounds and scrakes with one hit so you dont get hit yourself >_>

Pro my ***. I was actually gonna give a longer reply but I realized you just want "godmode" for all perks so I thought it would be pointless to dig deeper into this subject... You are clearly NOT a pro if you cant handle fleshpounds or scrakes with the current perks.

Jesus..

 

[FPK_I_AM_CONAN]

I will not reiterate the flaws of the m14, they have been stated in abundance.
Rather, i would like to give my opinion on what you said about the commando since it is my favourite perk.

First, I do not think "something extra" for the commando should be more nades, since most people rarely or never use them.

As for the bullpup, you mentioned the great sights and how they make headshots a pretty easy achievement. This shows instantly why no damage increase is needed imho. 50 rounds and a great aim equals a fair amount of decapitated specimens, so no additional dmg is required. I know you can't go out there with your trusty ol' bullpup huntin' youself sum big un's, but that is to be expected of the tier 1 weapon that sports the biggest mag in the game.

The AK doesn't let you kill the tough ones either, although I must say that the damage is awesome if you're a lvl 6 commando. On 6man suicidal, if you do not care much for aiming, you'll need just 2 Bullets to bodyshot Crawlers, 3 for Clots, 4 for Gorefasts and Stalkers. Personally, I use AK singleshot on 6 man suicidal, doing 3 times the number of headshots the m14 guys seem to be doing, and it has to be said that the amount of ammo for the AK doesn't really force me to switch to the SCAR until end of wave 6 or 7... AK is, at least in my opinion, the finest Commando weapon out there. (if anyone wants to shout OMG, N0oB, SCAR does moar DMG!!! -yeah, I know, thx alot)

The low SCAR clip is admittedly, some kind of a hindrance, but the high amount of spare mags you can carry and the reload time that is (I think) between bullpup and AK makes up for this. The SCAR (you may notice my abundant use of the semi automatic setting now) can, via headshot, kill Crawlers, Stalkers, Clots, Bloats and Gorefasts with a single bullet. The nice little red dot in the sight and the recoil reduction make this gun the best headshot-getter in the game (alright, X-Bow, I know). Switching to full auto on the other hand gives you almost a demolitions feeling, clearing a room in no time.


Congrats for staying with me through this epic text wall, here's my two cents cut short:

-Commando weapons lack the ultimate punch to kill Fleshpounds. My solution: find someone else to kill them for you. The Commando is maybe THE crowd control class of the game, a special weakness keeps you on the edge.
-Not enough bullets/mag. Find a balance between semi and full auto, after all, you do have the toggle fire mode button, knowing when to use it is the crowning skill for a commando, followed closely by quick headshotting, yelling "Fleshpound" while retreating, looking and firing on the move to support your team and keeping crawlers off your berserker.

 

[[UIT] Akame]

@FPK_I_AM_CONAN

It seems like you don't play online with other players very much, given that much of your post references solo suicidal and your scope on the perks seems only to be from using the perk in solo and not as a part of a team.

I couldn't tell you the portion of players that only/mostly play solo, but the game was created with co-op in mind and that is how it is viewed in this forum. Perks don't have to be able to deal with everything and if they can, then that is a sign that something is wrong.

Also, your sentence structure is terrible and makes it hard to read, much less understand, your ideas.

 

[anthracy]

Honestly, the two most overpowered classes are sharpshooter and medic.

Sharpshooter can kill anything and medic just CAN'T die.(level 6 of course)

 

[FPK_I_AM_CONAN]

@ Akame

sry for the hard to read sentences, english is not my first language.
You may notice that I never once used the word solo. In fact, I wrote 6man suicidal quite regularly.
Thanks for your l2p post, but I did play solo just once, in the days of the 2.11 mod.

Also:

-Commando weapons lack the ultimate punch to kill Fleshpounds. My solution: find someone else to kill them for you.

I will keep it even simpler than in my previous post then: Commandos DO NOT kill Fleshpounds, SOMEONE ELSE does.

Maybe even reading the whole post would have made things more clear, but do as you like.

 

[nath2009uk]

@ Akame

sry for the hard to read sentences, english is not my first language.
You may notice that I never once used the word solo. In fact, I wrote 6man suicidal quite regularly.
Thanks for your l2p post, but I did play solo just once, in the days of the 2.11 mod.

Also:



I will keep it even simpler than in my previous post then: Commandos DO NOT kill Fleshpounds, SOMEONE ELSE does.

Maybe even reading the whole post would have made things more clear, but do as you like.

Finally.
No perk should be able to kill everything, if a Support with the first shotty can't solo a fleshpound, he shouldn't.

 

[someguyhunter]

m14 is really not insanely overpowered. sharpshooter is the only perk that benefits from headshots which makes the weapons have huge damage. out of the new tier weapons (m14, scar, and AA12) i agree that it is the most powerful. but still xbow does the job better and cheaper.

as for me asking for every perk to be up to sharpshooting level, its not really what im asking.

what im saying is that the ease of using sharpshooter pretty much overshadows all the other perks that cannot handle scrakes and flesh pounds without taking damage. but rather than bringing sharp down a notch, the other perks should be buffed.

when AA12 and scar cant match a crossbow for damage, considering they are the most powerful weapons of that perk, they definitely need a buff. i understand commando isnt the perk to be using for killing scrakes or fleshpounds. however, dont you think that the strongest weapon of support and commando should be somewhat VIABLE vs FP?
should it take 3-5 clips of a scar to take down 1 FP on suicidal while it takes 1 bolt from a crossbow?

the unbalanced perks are much less noticeable on normal or hard until you see level 6s dropping left and right on suicidal because there wasnt someone who is sharpshooter. we shouldnt HAVE to have a sharpshooter to be able to kill flesh pounds or scrakes safely.

and i asked for comments, not whiny trolls crying from their basements.

more than a few people have agreed with me on these changes.

 

[someguyhunter]

I stopped reading here.

How can you be experienced at KF without noticing that the M14 is mainly used by fvcking n00bs with no skills, and even then they spam it like a bullpup.

I'm sorry but you lost all past, present and future credibility with your support of the M14 as it is.

personally. i dont even use m14 much. crossbow has a better scope, range, damage, penetration, and price. most people i meet dont really complain about m14 too much. it does have a lot of ammo and tends to be spammy but its really the LEAST of the balance issues in kf.



and whats with all the people crying about me calling myself a pro at this game?

ive played the game since release on steam, played all the perks to the highest potential, consistently survive in every wave in every difficulty when i play, and i know every weapon and nearly every official and custom map with quite a bit of detail. i am totally efficient with ammo and heal/stick with my teammates. what more could i possibly do to prove to the cry babies that i know what im talking about when it comes to kf? and just because you dont agree with my comments on the m14 doesnt make the rest of my comments false.

leave the bias at the door. all im trying to do is get a more even playing field on one of my favorite games on steam.

 

[nutterbutter]

First of all, I agree with CandleJack and the others about your m14 comment. The m14 is ridiculously overpowered with much too much ammo. That being said, let's look at the rest of your suggestions.

crossbow. doesnt need any changes except maybe price. 500 would be fair.

Even more expensive would be better. I wouldn't mind seeing lvl 6 SS spawn with dual hand cannons (lvl 5 with LAR) and the xbow being 1000. Refills would be 20 bolts and 50 per refill. MAke the one shot kills extremely expensive. And I mainly play SS.

>m14. its fine. it does what sharp needed. needed a high tier weapon with less damage than xbow but faster.

Bad bad weapon. Too light a weight. Too much damage. Too much ammo. Reduce the damage some and the ammo by half.

>lever action. worst weapon in the game imo. sure it reloads fast but it has crap ammo. it does ok headshot damage at best.

That comment makes me think you aren't quite the "seasoned pro" you think you are. The rifle owns. Big time. 3 headshots drop an FP at lvl 6. Accurate powerful weapon that is relatively fast and dirt cheap.

2. support. with full ammo it is the most expensive perk in the game. with AA12 being like 1200 and having 11 nades, it will drain your money fast. dont die.

Support gets buckshot and the ability to drop crowds with a single shot. It should be expensive. Oh, and just say no to grenades. Worthless, IMO, except to open doors quickly. Grenades are a very quick way to die.

>bullpup. its fair. 50 clip size. doesnt seem to run out like it used to with 40 clip. still. damage is pretty pitiful on hard/suicidal with 6 players. could use a TINY damage buff. its great for anything bloat and under. it has one of the best sights in the game. easy to headshot cause of low recoil. bad vs siren/scrake/fp.

Bullpup is a great weapon with tons of ammo and great damage. When I play commando on hard/suicidal I always use the bullpup first until it gets down to about 2 mags then I switch to SCAR. Yeah, no one is going to drop a scrake or FP with the bullpup, but why in the world should every weapon be able to drop the scrake and FP?

damage could be a bit higher vs scrakes and fp also. 1 full clip barely takes a FP to 60% life. then you are in a world of pain.

Again, every weapon shouldn't be able to drop the FP.

>scar. one of the best additions to the game imo. but needed the most balancing! its fast, has a slightly higher recoil than bullpup. decent sights and damage. but wtf 25 clip?!?!?! 1 full clip seems to do the same as 37 ak clips. it does more than ak in less time then is cut short by this low *** clip size. just make clip size 35. and ak 40. i think it is the best possible upgrade to a perk that desperately needs it.

The SCAR already has 375 rounds and you want it to go above 500?!?

4. firebug. nice to snipe with long range. decent to spray.
same prob as support. needs more damage to handle scrakes or FP without getting hit. FP can kill you in 2 hits in suicidal with full armor!!!! or give firebugs fire armor or some crazy idea @_@.

Firebug shouldn't be going head to head with the FP anyways.

seems like im repeating this a lot. scrake and FP. being able to handle em without taking hits.

Let me ask you this... How much fun do you think the game would be if everyone was able to handle the scrakes and flesh pounds without taking hits? Pretty damn boring if you ask me. The fun of the game, any game, is overcoming challenges and if every class can own the FP and scrake without taking any damage then no one would play the game. After all, why would they? The game would be boring.

i know its a recurring mesage but its a huge part of the game. people spend 1000-2000 pounds on commando or support or even demolitions. they are level 6 and getting owned by wave 6 or 7 when scrakes or FP start flowing in.

Find better players. Who cares about money anyways? There is a ton of it in the game.

I think most of your suggestions are "Make the game easier." The game doesn't need to be easier.

 

[dextronaut]

commando is probably one of the most balanced perks. just because we cant take out a FP on suicidal by ourselves doesnt mean commando isnt balanced. this is a team game.

 

[derito]

You know, although 3rd tier weapons are quite expensive, it shouldn't be some bloody doomsday device annihilating every single specimen. Which means that no matter their cost they must have (at least) a weakness.

Playing a game since a long time and knowing the weapons don't make you a pro you know ?
(for example I play TF2 for 2+ years and know the weapons and class however I'll get owned by any serious gamer)

Oh and:

Also: try to avoid this kind of thing

and i asked for comments, not whiny trolls crying from their basements.

If you can't stand contradiction a forum might not be the best place to go. And if you think this person is insulting just ignore him.

 

[nutterbutter]

m14 is really not insanely overpowered.

Yes it is. The insta-kill feature is the big problem.

but rather than bringing sharp down a notch, the other perks should be buffed.

Dear Lord, no. If the game is easy for the SS, then the last thing we need is every other class doing the same amount of damage.

we shouldnt HAVE to have a sharpshooter to be able to kill flesh pounds or scrakes safely.

You obviously don't remember the days when teams HAD to have melee players (with chainsaws) in order to survive. Multiple scrakes or FPs were an absolute terror. Having to purchase full armor each wave. No weapons above the bullpup. Those were the days.

and i asked for comments, not whiny trolls crying from their basements.

You are getting comments. While you may not realize it, you are asking for an easier game.

 

[Major Liability]

The only change that needs to be made to the M14 is decreased ammo carrying capacity, so that spammers will run out before the wave is even close to finishing and the skilled players who use the M14 properly get the insane kills they deserve. I don't understand the hatred for the weapon, it's the dumbass who spams it that is the problem (and more often than not gets himself killed).

 

[YoungSpice]

I had a suggestion for the Demo perk. Everyone knows that when the enemies are in lines with one behind the other the demo man can't just shoot the first specimen because he will just absorb most of the damage. So I was thinking that for every level increase the demo man will get a reduction in the amount of smoke created if he shoots at objects that are not specimens (Walls, ceilings etc..).

For example, if a group of clots are walking down a hallway in a straight line the demo man SHOULD shoot the wall next to them to spread the damage out better. I think if the demo man is smart enough to do that he should see a reduction in the amount of smoke created. Not a whole lot though cause smoke is supposed to be part of their drawbacks, but enough to see a LITTLE bit better.

This is just an example of what it could look like:

Level 1: 5% Reduction in smoke produced when grenades are detonated on inanimate objects.

Level 2: 7% Reduction in smoke produced when grenades are detonated on inanimate objects.

And so on and so forth.

Maybe the top % could be like 25 or so. Just estimates. Let me know what you guys think. If you guys think it is a bad idea let me know. I just thought I would throw that idea out there.

 

[CandleJack]

The only change that needs to be made to the M14 is decreased ammo carrying capacity, so that spammers will run out before the wave is even close to finishing and the skilled players who use the M14 properly get the insane kills they deserve. I don't understand the hatred for the weapon, it's the dumbass who spams it that is the problem (and more often than not gets himself killed).

I see your point, and it has been made often enough.

120 rounds is plenty of ammo for the M14. That's 6 mags overall, or 20/5.

20/14 is way too much.

Because right now i can't differentiate between f cking spamming n00bs and pro players because they both use the same weapon.

EDIT: Support is one of the three perks that are perfectly balanced.

I solo'd wave 10 on 6man hard, with a shotgun and AA12. 2 Fps, and the last 10 waves featured 7 scrakes.

Support is fine if you know how to use it.

Same with commando and medic.

 

[[UIT] Akame]

Finally.
No perk should be able to kill everything.

Except for suicidal, most of the perks -assuming level 6- can kill everything without dying. Suicidal being an exception, but on solo it isn't that hard.

@Conan
You used the word solo exactly four times, usually in reference to beating the core map on suicidal. You mention 6 man once, in reference to being able to decap FPs in one shot with a crossbow. You can see why I think that you don't play multiplayer- particularly since you complain about not being able to kill specs before they hit you- since you seem to not take other perk being present into account.

@someguyhunter
Completing a 10 wave game on suicidal multiple times kind of takes the fun out of play the game. It is rather boring to win all the time. So it is good if you lose. A lot. So that you have some goal to reach for.