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Increasing the overall difficulty of KF

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#21
Sounds like you are ready for a man's challenge.... 70% Friendly Fire.
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Yep. We've started playing FF now. Which is why I made a bullet point for it since FF gets no attention through the filters or even exists as an option in the minds of the general fan base.

And yeah, there is a definite lack of FF servers out there. It makes me wish, now, that KF had started with FF on default. Another one those shifts to a "hardcore mentality."
 
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#22
Bej-Bej said:
But, the problem with really fast specimens is that they don't give the player enough time to be scared. The specimens deal so much damage to the player that you go from the mindset of "This is going well" to "Rats, I'm dead" in a matter of seconds.

Take the kfmod for example. The specimens moved slower then they do in retail and compensated by eating your bullets and asking for seconds and then thirds. This, overall, slowed down the pace of the game and gave the player ample time to think "oh @#%&!".
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Not to get in the mindset of lets turn this into kf-mod, I would say that a straight nerf to all weapons plus the rebalances that have been brought up before would force the game to lower difficulties where specs are slightly slower anyways (also medic and berserker speed buffs need to be looked at).

Also a removal of lv5/6 weapons spawns and an increase in map weapon spawns would be cool, but most maps aren't built to work like this. Something though to force players to use weaker weapons for longer to give the sense of impending doom that retail has none of.
 
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#23
Nenjin said:
Beginner can be beginner, but starting at normal I think the team should be wiping more often than not, because the game is already hard at that level...and not because people don't know what they're doing.
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Well, the way I see it

Beginner would be for 6 year old kids who dont even know where the fire button is.

Normal would be for "beginners", the difficulty you use when learning the game. That means, the first couple of weeks you will think the Patriarch is impossible and keep getting wiped out all the time. After youve learned the basics and know which perks are best for taking out each specimen, you move to...

Hard. This would be the next step after youve learned to survive on Normal difficulty, and imo this is the difficulty where majority of KF players should be.

Suicidal instead, is the difficulty for long-time KF fans who know all secrets of the game :), or at least enough to survive there. But sadly, everyone having lvl 6 perks already and with the new weapons, its no longer the challenge it should be.

--------> So, Id say we wait for the new update to come out, just to see what kind of balance tweaks TWI is going to add. Then, if we still need to alter the difficulties, Id say we make suicidal harder and leave all other difficulties the way they are atm.

What comes to Friendly Fire, Im still gonna say a big NO just because there is way too many idiots out there who either 1. kill teammates just for the fun of it 2. dont give a **** wether they damage their teammates with nades or similar. Not to forget accidental deaths. FF works with games like Wolf ET where you got max 30 second respawn but in KF you might have to wait MINUTES until the next wave starts, so no.

You guys play on FF servers where most of the time the players know what they are doing and they chose FF server because they like it. But if FF was a default, youd see how much pain it would cause when all the nubbies flooded your servers too.
 
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#24
HaTeMe said:
What comes to Friendly Fire, Im still gonna say a big NO just because there is way too many idiots out there who either 1. kill teammates just for the fun of it 2. dont give a **** wether they damage their teammates with nades or similar. Not to forget accidental deaths. FF works with games like Wolf ET where you got max 30 second respawn but in KF you might have to wait MINUTES until the next wave starts, so no.

You guys play on FF servers where most of the time the players know what they are doing and they chose FF server because they like it. But if FF was a default, youd see how much pain it would cause when all the nubbies flooded your servers too.
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I actually like what was said earlier about the revers FF, damage a team mate and you take the damage. Much harder to exploit.
 
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#25
What comes to Friendly Fire, Im still gonna say a big NO just because there is way too many idiots out there who either 1. kill teammates just for the fun of it 2. dont give a **** wether they damage their teammates with nades or similar. Not to forget accidental deaths. FF works with games like Wolf ET where you got max 30 second respawn but in KF you might have to wait MINUTES until the next wave starts, so no.
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I would have agreed with you in the past. But after months of KF, I'm sick of the run 'n gun mentality. I'm sick of berzerkers that, by default, sit right in your line of fire because they don't have a reason not to. As much fun as bloomping my own teammates is, it's cheesy and as Demo I basically make the first 7 waves a non-issue when FF isn't on.

Getting shot by a nub is annoying, yeah. But it's also a chance to go "Hey, let's work together as a team better." Sometimes they're like "Yeah!" and you make a new friend who plays with a serious mindset.

Other times they're like "lol." And that's when you shoot them back. :p

I dunno. Playing on FF has really changed the way I appreciate the game. Fights are almost as tough at the right difficulty because of where you choose to stand as what you have to kill.

I really encourage vets to start playing FF. It's the _only_ reason I can stay interested in KF right now. Mowing down the umpteenth wave of specimen just isn't doing it for me anymore.
 
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#26
Wolfmyth said:
I actually like what was said earlier about the revers FF, damage a team mate and you take the damage. Much harder to exploit.
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Hmm that might have some potential in it. Couldnt be exploited but still worked the same way (having to avoid shooting teammates).

But still, I dont think even a "reverse ff" will ever become default in KF because it would make the lives of berserkers and demos a bit too hard. Imagine you planted a ton of pipebombs and some nubbie teammate thought it would be a safe place to camp, so a fleshpound comes along blowing up the pipebombs -> teammate takes the damage and it transfers to the demo as teamdamage -> dead demo. Berserkers instead, they wouldnt actually be in harms way themselves, but they are always at the front so theyd become a major annoyance to other team members, especially anyone using explosives (demo again..).

It might help if most servers had active and FAIR admins, but sadly they dont usually. Or if they have active admins, they are all idiots lol... Like today there was some wannabe clan trying to host a server, they restarted the game like 3 times and after 2 waves they closed the server because they werent top killers in the game. Just great.
 
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#27
BEEEEEES said:
You don't need a whole slew of changes to make KF the intense experience you want. What you want is a whitelisted mutator that cranks specimen move speed way up.

The reason it's boring is that you have plenty of time to putz around while zeds walk up to your position under a hail of bullets, and when they finally do get to you, most are easily outrun regardless of perk. I guarantee that if the slow move speeds of all zeds was jacked way up, the game would seem pretty wicked intense on any difficulty.
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Well i'm not a seasoned expert i'm a newcomer with perks all at only 4, but this hits the nail on the head for me.

The game is obviously easier when things are under control, and it's easy to to do so with skilled, experienced players that know the maps well. \th lumbering speed of most specimens, means even a few mistakes or missed shots are forgiven as high level players can recover quickly.

I've only played suicidal once, with some decent organised players, and we only lost to the pat after pretty much plain sailing thou the rounds.

Not only is this game (obviously) at it's hardest, but also at it's most enjoyable for me when things go tits up and you lose control.
Increasing specimen speed is the best way to increase this threat and keep players under pressure to not let it happen.

oh yeah, i agree FF is a great option - I'm certainly not lacking a challange with KF but i already prefer FF and always have done- it adds more tension when you're being over run and when a team mate is caught up it almost turns into a hostage situation..
 
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#29
Not all the game, just add a new difficulty

Not all the game, just add a new difficulty

My friend, you have forgotten that this game is already extrememly difficult. You are just so used to it that you dont see it as difficult anymore.

If you dont remember your first days of gaming, then you should know that KF is one of the more difficult games out there. Make the WHOLE game more difficult and it becomes a 'cult' game, a game reserved for leets, a game that is a financial liability for TWI.

If you would care to actaully check on the 99% of KF players not on the forums, then you might realize that, for the averageplayer, this is devilishly hard. Normal kills noobs almost instantly, hard is reserved for veterans, and suicidal....even I can only win a round on defense 2-b, and then only occaisonally. I have not won another map to date on suicidal. Begginner is the only garunteed win, and even there you see dieing noobs suffering from macheting FPs, rocketing patties, and unseen crawlers on bedlam.

If you increase the total difficulty, you make KF a cult game, reserved for leets, and a financial liability for TWI. You have to think about more than the leet population here. Instead of ruining this game for newcomers for your own entertainment, create an even higher difficulty. A difficulty that would be a challenge to any player, old or new. So, please, rethink your idea, so that we can all coexist. This game doesnt need to shutout new players, but to bring in new blood, keep the old players, and make this game a pleasant and varied ex[erience for players of all experience levels.
 
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#30
I'll admit, in looking for ways to make KF more difficult (and fun) I've found some I didn't know about before. The No-Trader progression maps are a nice challenge with FF on hard and suicidal. They're like puzzles you have to tease apart before you get how best to survive. That's been nice.

Still, as the game grows in scope, its overall difficulty has to keep pace so veterans are just as happy as newbs. And pending a balance patch for the Levelup Update, which many are still expecting...so far it's not doing it.

I stick by my suggestion, on the premise that overall difficulty has to change as perk levels and weapons get better and better. Simply adding a new specimen or two can't compensate for bigger numbers, better damage and better ways to expend ammo that players will eventually get.

And, like I said, I think there's less redeeming value in a casual co-op shooter than there is in a focused, hardcore style shooter. Casuals come and go. The fanbase is forevah. :p (And we shell out money on command for TWI.)

The options can always stay there so people can modify their play experience...but in terms of what people are presented with when they first launch the game, I think KF needs to change its approach a little.
 
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#31
timur said:
My friend, you have forgotten that this game is already extrememly difficult. You are just so used to it that you dont see it as difficult anymore.

Normal kills noobs almost instantly, hard is reserved for veterans, and suicidal....even I can only win a round on defense 2-b, and then only occaisonally. I have not won another map to date on suicidal. Begginner is the only garunteed win, and even there you see dieing noobs suffering from macheting FPs, rocketing patties, and unseen crawlers on bedlam.
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I hardly think that normal is difficult. Normal is typical 'normal' level fare for standard fps genre games and the learning curve is somewhat steep but levels out way to quickly. A few weeks playing will easily allow nearly any player to pass normal.

Beginner is a joke. You can sit at a level 0 berserker and get attacked by 12 clots for something like 20 seconds before dying. A friend of mine who had played about 3 hours of KF and generally doesn't play fps games got to the last wave and died while playing with level 0 perks with someone else with level 0 perks (it was a read only perks server).
Every game requires some skill to play and has a learning curve. Since this game is a 18ish+ game (depending on where you live) all your players should be old enough to understand what is going on and learn to the game.

But the big issue isn't that the highest difficulties are too easy in and of themselves but they don't challenge the player. It's like if you had a game where a d20 was rolled and you died unless a 5 was rolled. You wouldn't win very much but it wouldn't be challenging or fun.
 
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#32
[UIT] Akame said:
But the big issue isn't that the highest difficulties are too easy in and of themselves but they don't challenge the player. It's like if you had a game where a d20 was rolled and you died unless a 5 was rolled. You wouldn't win very much but it wouldn't be challenging or fun.
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I once suggested somewhere (hope it wasnt this topic lol) that the specimens should gain new abilities on harder difficulties. So for example on suicidal

1. Scrake could enrage randomly when he sees a player
2. Siren could be screaming a lot more often even when players arent near her (to make sure she destroys all pipebombs around and players really cant damage her with nades). Also her screams should destroy nades from the grenadelaunchers, which they dont atm for some reason.
3. Husks should attempt to "snipe" instead of mindlessly walking towards players, to make them harder to kill (altho Im not sure wether thats possible with the engine)
4. Stalkers should be ALWAYS cloaked
5. Crawlers could be venomous, such as most spiders are. So when ever they attack theres a 25% change of being 'poisoned' and you would take damage over time until healed, at a rate of 1hp per second or so (increased speed from multiple attacks, 3 bites before heal would be 3hp per second and so on)
6. Gorefasts should NEVER stop to attack, because they still do it occasionally.
7. Clot hug would prevent players from jumping, and they wouldnt release the grap until killed. (atm you can break the grap by either jumping or attacking the clot)
8. Bloats could be harder to decap
9. Fleshpounds couldnt be decapped, not even with a crossbow.
10. Patriarch would have more bodyguards (maybe even a few fleshpounds?)
 
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#34
HaTeMe said:
I once suggested somewhere (hope it wasnt this topic lol) that the specimens should gain new abilities on harder difficulties. So for example on suicidal
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I agree with this but it would take a decent amount of work to do this; then again I'm not sure there is an easy way to address balance issues. Headshots in general have a huge impact and either need to be toned down or removed, particularly the M14 and Crossbow bonuses.
 
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#37
A added game mode the mobs aggro increasing as any player's frags goes up would be extremely challenging. Any one player taking down anything and everything he sees would quickly find himself in for a show . the aggro would increase on anything from crawlers, gorefests up to Scrakes and FPs. Last wave should stay as it is.
 
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#38
I definitely think the specimen count for Normal and Hard should go up. I agree that the game should be much harder...for the people who want it to be harder. Let it be an option, not a mandatory slap in the face for all the difficulties and the player who choose them. Not everyone who plays KF is here for the "uber challenge" or mind-blowing amounts of skill required through endless playtime and understanding of everything involved (from the Zeds and their weaknesses/attack patterns, to the strength and weaknesses of your weapons).

Just have a higher difficulty option, or allow more difficult servers to be rewarding rather than not worth anything (Perk advanement and continued accumulation of Perk experience). I'm saying don't shaft one half while you give a supposed holy grail to the other, that way you can appeal to both hardcore players and casual players alike. Let a new difficulty be added or just allow more customization of server options to be coded in (and I realize that may be more hassle than I'm thinking) without penalizing the player's right to advancement/accumulation.

What I mean by server customization options, is that you would be allowed more control over several aspects of Killing Floor when setting up your server options. Such as the ability to increase Zed speed, the sturdiness of Zed heads, the health of each individual type of Zed, the attack strength of each individual type of Zed, weapon strength, weapon costs, money rewards for kills (and round-end bonus), etc.

Or just add another level of difficulty with all of that cranked up. I really do think more server customization options for the game itself would allow a greater freedom and challenge based upon the player's perspective of a challenge, and would allow the user to reate the level of difficulty suitable to their fancy (however options that undermined the set-in base difficulty to be lower than what is originally coded would result in no perk experience or accumulation, where as going above and beyond the starting difficulty settings would result in more reward rather than none at all).

A nightmare to code? Not being a coding wiz or having any remote idea of how much time or effort that would take I'll just say probably.
 
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#39
xIRiShxBLeNdx said:
how about a diffuculty called "Are you Sh*tting Me?"
u start out with zero cash
the trader is a ripoff and prices are way to high
clots have the damage of a Fleshpound
Theres only 1 pick up in the entire map, and its 5 pounds.

And if you can survive 10 rounds, every killing floor achievement is unlocked for you.:cool:
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and the fleshpounds have lazor beems

and there are scarkes
 
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