Tactics Why Crowding Cover is Wrong, by Shakken

[DGM]

Original post:
[url]http://www.smod-tactical.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1042[/URL]

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Reading the following post completely changed how I play realistic FPS, including RO. See why I may not be using the cover system in RO:HoS...

To answer a question asked several times elsewhere on the forum I present the reason why plus a visual aid.

Diagram A through C show different proximities to cover. The area indicated in red shows the area of vision obscured by cover.

Diagram A Shows the operator leaning on cover to shoot around it. Such close proximity to cover severely limits vision around cover, reducing the area the operator can dominate with his firepower. The proximity to cover not only decreases the operators situational awareness but reduces the space where the user can manipulate his weapon and also does not adequately conceal the position of the operator. In this position the operator's weapon and muzzle flash present visual target indicators. If the operator is leaning against the wall his posture is less fluid and mobile, inhibiting his ability to move in an emergency.

Diagram B Shows the operator further back from cover, this is the preferred distance from cover where the operator's whole body and weapon is shielded by cover. The obscured area beyond cover is reduced allowing the operator to dominate more area with his firepower. At this distance muzzle flash will not be visible beyond the wall. The sound of the weapon fired will also be reflected off cover reducing the enemy's ability to pinpoint the gunfire of the operator.

Diagram C shows the operator pushing further off the wall to increase the area of domination. All the benefits of position B still apply. As long as the player keeps a fluid position the proximity of cover can be varied to either maximize awareness or protection as necessary.

Diagram D demonstrates how when cover is crowded, the operator cannot see the enemy but the enemy can certainly see the operator! The exposed weapon is a dead giveaway for the operators position, which an unseen enemy can either fire upon or in this case flank around the operator.

Additional concerns on crowding cover;

- Cover isn't always an uncomplicated brick wall. Weapons and equipment can get hung up on cover.
- Cover sometimes has apertures in it at varying heights. If you are crowding cover this makes them difficult to shoot through and easy to be shot through.
- Bullets ricocheting/tracking cover can reflect into an operator leaning on it.
- Explosive weapons can detonate on a piece of cover the operator is leaning on.
- Impacts on cover can generate secondary fragments that can distract/injure/kill the operator.
- Weapon moving parts assemblies that make contact with cover can cause the weapon to malfunction. (Handgun slide assemblies, charging handles, etc.)
- Leaning on cover reduces the fluidity of the postures that can be employed from behind cover. Whether they be leaning out or shooting rolled out from prone.
- Consider if you will the possibility that the thing you are using as cover may occasionally be ON FIRE covered in SHARP STICKS or the EBOLA VIRUS.
- Leaning up on cover, to shoot you need to turn the corner, raise the weapon, aquire the target, aim and pull the trigger. When all you really need to do is aim and pull the trigger.

In summary;

- Cover is cover as long as it stops bullets. You do not have to be touching it. You should NOT be touching it.
- The further away from cover, the larger the sector of domination.
- Crowding cover gives away your position and makes your life unnecessarily complicated and difficult.
- Extremely close proximities to cover are the exception, not the rule.
- Crowding cover has limited practical benefit.
- 'Cover systems' are retarded.
- Don't crowd cover!

 

[Zetsumei]

It depends on the type of cover and the proximity of the range you expect to encounter people.
For longer range it can be better to find a stable firing platform, rather than standing or crouching in the open with the cover infront of you.

Unlike other games ro will feature a first person cover system and not a third person one so you have the same advantages as disadvantages in reallife. So use it in the situations it is best to use it, and for more indoor fighting cut the pie.

The main thing of a cover system is to allow you to adjust your hight slightly to whatever you are behind. A table might not cover you, but it does conceal you and give you a stable firing platform. The walls of the room can actually be your cover.

Perhaps you should call the RO cover system a concealment/stable firing platform system, if you prefer. Because you can use it behind objects that arent cover as well, like tables, completely open fences etc.

 

[Drecks]

Some of these suggesion/advice post makes me wonder if some people play a game or want to escape the real life they have.
Its funny for sure.
Note*Its not only this specific post

 

[Floyd]

And quite naturally, the more area you "dominate" the more exposed you are. Its a two way street.

I'll just wait until you back up, and I, as a rifleman 100 yds away laying prone behind cover, will shoot you dead when you back into view.

I call that covering fire for my advancing smg comrades. What is suggested works well in some situations but not in all.

 

[Das Bose]

Also when you factor in the planned penetration I think it is more important to be concealed as cover is only cover until somebody knows you are behind it and proceeds to shoot you, through it, assuming you're not hiding behind a Tiger or similiar

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Diagram A Shows the operator leaning on cover to shoot around it. Such close proximity to cover severely limits vision around cover, reducing the area the operator can dominate with his firepower. The proximity to cover not only decreases the operators situational awareness but reduces the space where the user can manipulate his weapon and also does not adequately conceal the position of the operator. In this position the operator's weapon and muzzle flash present visual target indicators. If the operator is leaning against the wall his posture is less fluid and mobile, inhibiting his ability to move in an emergency.

I stopped here in reading cuz I wanted to respond. I agree 100% with this reasoning and is why I don't even bother with the current leaning system, no did I ever like wall-locking features.

Leaning out doesn't help anything except screw up your view, as many I have seen leaning out of a corner usually always miss me, while I can still take them out..... afterall, the important parts of the body are still sticking out, ie: head and torso. Even if you pull yourself out from the corner quickly before return fire ensues, who's to say you're completely covered? I've seen many try and hide back around the corner from leaning, where their arm, torso and leg were still visible and were easy kills.

With the wall-lock feature, the view mentioned above is correct, and in games that lock me along a wall that I have played in the past do indeed slow my response time and when a grenade comes my way... I have even less time to react because I have to hit extra keys and screw around with getting off the wall..... rather then getting up and just running.

Besides, I don't have a magnet stuck in my arse to pin me against a wall in real life.

Diagram D demonstrates how when cover is crowded, the operator cannot see the enemy but the enemy can certainly see the operator! The exposed weapon is a dead giveaway for the operators position, which an unseen enemy can either fire upon or in this case flank around the operator.

Which is something I try to do often... someone is shooting in one direction and pinning myself or my team down..... then I flank along a direction they can't see me and I take them out.

Pretty much everything else I agree with.

If they want to put this cover-hug thing into the game, all the power to them.... I'll never use it except use it to my advantage by taking out other players who are silly enough to use it.

The players who lean around corners are a snap.... I can only imagine the players using this.

Also when you factor in the planned penetration I think it is more important to be concealed as cover is only cover until somebody knows you are behind it and proceeds to shoot you, through it, assuming you're not hiding behind a Tiger or similiar

The problem I see with that is that if you're a distance back from the cover, it's not so easy to hit you with one of these bullets coming through compared to being right up against the object covering you.

If you're right up against it, all one has to do is shoot the object and they get you..... if you're a distance behind it and they still can't exactly see you, they can shoot the object covering you, but their chances of hitting you are smaller, because distance-wise, you are smaller as a target and they have to try and figure out where to shoot the object in order to hit you.

Of course if they don't know you're there, it doesn't matter if you're right up against the wall or a distance from it, except in regards to your field of view and mobility, which I like to keep maximized as much and as often as possible.

 

[Das Bose]

Makes sense, probably more so in real life than ingame though. I guess we will have to wait and see what tripwire serve up for us

Edit: Btw when I said concealment is a better idea, I wasn't suggesting being closer to said cover, just trying to avoid getting spotted.

 

[Zetsumei]

Everybody is free not to use it ^^.
I'll do what is the most effective, and currently especially in defensive gameplay this consists of resting my weapon on some cover.

 

[Calumhm]

The guy who wrote this thinks he can cover two directions at once

The guy who wrote this thinks he can cover two directions at once

A is dangerous in real life particularly, as you give away your position to those who aren't in your FOV, who may be able to shoot through your cover, or they can plan to kill you in many interesting ways. In games A isn't quite as problematic, and using RO as an example, just like real life, you can lean your weapon on something for sharpshooting.

B is good because it maintains the same FOV as A, without revealing your postion to a 180 degree arc with your weapon. You are however expsed more to people at your 10 and 2 O clock. You are less likely to take hits that have penetrated the cover, or to take shrapnel from the destruction of the cover (in some situations you are more likely).

C gives you the highest FOV, although you can be shot from about two 45 degree areas, meaning 90 degrees. (only counting areas in front of you)
C also requires that you in return for a large proportionate increase of your FOV and your enemies FOV of you, you must be able to watch, and ideally have your gun aimed at, both areas at once.

Also, like B, you cant rest your gun on the cover, so if an aware opponent appears at long range, he has a tactical advantage if prone or simply in the direction you don't have your gun pointed in.

Anyone still think C is great?

 

[Calumhm]

But it does highlight potential weaknesses in the cover system. Still it's alot better than no cover system. You cant blindfire if your not against cover

 

[jamzinator]

Seeming as people are talking about a wall-lock feature, I thought I might join in with a couple ideas.

So, for those that think locking to the wall would limit mobility, there is a way to work against this problem. Say, if a player were to run to a piece of cover, and press a certain button (for example V), their character would move up to the cover, crouch or go prone depending on its height, and maybe with the machine guns and weapons that need to be deployed they are automatically mounted facing 90 degrees forward from the cover. The player can then use A and D to move left and right around the cover, and can mount their weapon on the cover for shooting at the enemy. when a player needs to react to a sudden change in the enviroment, they could dismount the cover by looking away or moving away in the same way as you would when resting a gun on a ledge.

And as for blind firing, the player needs simply to press their fire key whilst behind cover (not resting the weapon on it.) If the cover is a corner (vertical cover) the player could use the leaning keys (Q and E) to lean the gun around the corner for blind firing. For normal firing they can just activate the iron sights.

So yeah, first post on the forums, LOOOVE the game, and I will now have to get the sequel as soon as it comes out. Whadaya think of that for a cover system?

 

[doomis]

Seeming as people are talking about a wall-lock feature, I thought I might join in with a couple ideas.

So, for those that think locking to the wall would limit mobility, there is a way to work against this problem. Say, if a player were to run to a piece of cover, and press a certain button (for example V), their character would move up to the cover, crouch or go prone depending on its height, and maybe with the machine guns and weapons that need to be deployed they are automatically mounted facing 90 degrees forward from the cover. The player can then use A and D to move left and right around the cover, and can mount their weapon on the cover for shooting at the enemy. when a player needs to react to a sudden change in the enviroment, they could dismount the cover by looking away or moving away in the same way as you would when resting a gun on a ledge.

And as for blind firing, the player needs simply to press their fire key whilst behind cover (not resting the weapon on it.) If the cover is a corner (vertical cover) the player could use the leaning keys (Q and E) to lean the gun around the corner for blind firing. For normal firing they can just activate the iron sights.

So yeah, first post on the forums, LOOOVE the game, and I will now have to get the sequel as soon as it comes out. Whadaya think of that for a cover system?

Pretty much this, you can "lock" on the cover, but when looking away you can unlock just like that, no need for an extra button to push. The fact that it will work not only when blind firing above your head/cover but also when leaning left or right will mean that you will no longer accidentally expose your body too much. In real life it doesnt require even a split of a second to calculate how much you need to lean in order to fire around a corner.

A great example for those who have it is the last brother in arms. Sure it switches to 3rd person when you press Q (if I remember correctly) and lock on the cover, but if you play it again or watch some videos on youtube, you can see its pretty handy and I found it really nice when some times the camera got stuck behind an item at the back so I couldnt see a lot, a kind of blind fire mode. Just need to turn it to 1rst person. It wont be the first thing taken from that game after all

 

[Zetsumei]

As mg's can undeploy this time by simply walking away. I think the same practise holds for the 1st person cover system.

 

[LemoN]

As mg's can undeploy this time by simply walking away. I think the same practise holds for the 1st person cover system.

Didn't the video even state that you can just get out of the cover mode by simply walking away?

 

[Zetsumei]

As far as i know the 1st person cover mode wasn't even shown or talked about in the video.

 

[HobbStweedle]

It was in the video. He hides behind a low wall and demonstrates blind-firing around the side and over the top, as well as the ability to 'peak' over the object without fully exposing yourself.

 

[Pvt.Skoko]

Zet you gotta watch the vid again

 

[Zetsumei]

and you should stop reviving dead threads

 

[Xendance]

And you should stop boosting your postcount. It's big enough already.



+1 postcount

 

[FlyXwire]

In summary;

- Cover is cover as long as it stops bullets. You do not have to be touching it. You should NOT be touching it.
- The further away from cover, the larger the sector of domination.
- Crowding cover gives away your position and makes your life unnecessarily complicated and difficult.
- Extremely close proximities to cover are the exception, not the rule.
- Crowding cover has limited practical benefit.
- 'Cover systems' are retarded.
- Don't crowd cover!

There's soft cover and there's hard cover, and so cover doesn't always stop bullets, even though it might limit line of sight.

So now, let's see how military cover actually is used:

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ"]YouTube - How Not To Be Seen[/URL]