What's with the Rambo hate?

[SMIFF]

Your entire argument consists of "stop going off alone and killing everything, I'm tired and annoyed of my tactic of sitting in one place and waiting for specimens to come to me doesn't work if you're not with us."

Killing Floor is a game. Play it how you like, and don't ever let anyone tell you that what you're doing is wrong. As long as you're having fun, and it's not at the cost of someone else (except for competitive exclusion, obviously), then you're not doing anything wrong.

Don't tell me what I can and cannot do. Especially when I'm still alive, and you died because your first instinct was to call for help instead of figure out a way out of the situation you're in (or God forbid think ahead and not get into the situation in the first place).

I find greifing fun.
So you wouldnt mind if i consistently greifed you, blocked your path and tk'd you over and over again?

You wouldnt find that wrong as long as i was having fun?

EDIT: "its not at the cost of someone else (except for competitive exclusion, obviously)"

Just read that bit, sorry, i didnt read it properly.

But competition for the highest kills?.....i suppose i could still kill you to secure my spot at the top.....competitively.

 

[Deafmute]

I find greifing fun.
So you wouldnt mind if i consistently greifed you, blocked your path and tk'd you over and over again?

You wouldnt find that wrong as long as i was having fun?

Not getting too involved in this silly debate, but I'm pretty sure his post stated "as long as you're having fun, and it's not at the cost of someone else..."

Read more carefully before you try to poke holes in someone's argument.

 

[SMIFF]

Not getting too involved in this silly debate, but I'm pretty sure his post stated "as long as you're having fun, and it's not at the cost of someone else..."

Read more carefully before you try to poke holes in someone's argument.

i see you posted whilst i was editing.

 

[Nenjin]

Your entire argument consists of "stop going off alone and killing everything, I'm tired and annoyed of my tactic of sitting in one place and waiting for specimens to come to me doesn't work if you're not with us."

And your argument is "don't repress me. I have the right to not play a co-op game cooperatively." The only leg you have to stand on is that you detract from the total wave count. Which is pretty weak. You leech off the benefits of the team too while acting like you don't need them. Which is crap.

I'll fully support TWI giving you guys a 100% challenge solo mode so we can all be happy. Well, we'll be happy anyways and I'll have to spend less time alt-tabbing to kick foos.

Don't tell me what I can and cannot do. Especially when I'm still alive, and you died because your first instinct was to call for help instead of figure out a way out of the situation you're in (or God forbid think ahead and not get into the situation in the first place).

Well, setting aside hypothetical about who dies when so the other can look tough...

I'm not telling you what to do. I'll leave that up to my Kick/Ban button. He isn't much for conversation, but in the end he's never wrong.

 

[Herborist]

And your argument is "don't repress me. I have the right to not play a co-op game cooperatively." The only leg you have to stand on is that you detract from the total wave count. Which is pretty weak. You leech off the benefits of the team too while acting like you don't need them. Which is crap.

I'll fully support TWI giving you guys a 100% challenge solo mode so we can all be happy. Well, we'll be happy anyways and I'll have to spend less time alt-tabbing to kick foos.



Well, setting aside hypothetical about who dies when so the other can look tough...

I'm not telling you what to do. I'll leave that up to my Kick/Ban button. He isn't much for conversation, but in the end he's never wrong.

Before we continue this charade, I'd like to point out that you've completely misconstrued my thesis. I am not in support of everyone running off in six different directions. All I am saying is that people blame others far too often for their own individual failures. It's not the team who has died, it's you. Personal performance is always first and foremost your biggest responsibility. That doesn't mean you should ignore your teammates - in fact, that means you should strive to not only be good enough to keep yourself alive, but keep them alive and still win.

I'd also like to point out that "solo players" don't leech anything from a team - they'd be too far away to force a medic to heal them, they don't require other players covering them, and they kill zombies. I will agree that solo'ing detracts from the total efficacy of the team, and the total efficacy of the team is a factor in the net efficacy of your squad as a whole. And again, I am in no way an advocating for "rambo'ing".

I would argue some more with you, but your comment about kicking and banning players makes me think that you've stereotyped me and that you'll misconstrue everything I say in order to make me fit into who you think I am or what you think I am saying.

 

[Nenjin]

People get their fair chance on our server. If they just continually run off by themselves wave after wave, yeah, we might kick them just because we want everyone playing as a team. If it's resulting in a really boring game, it's a definite kick. I suppose we could ask them to leave...but that usually results in "FU", so why bother?

And by leeching, I mean this. People play MP games and then go rambo because they want a greater challenge without being forced to play anyone's way but their own. They do that at the expense of other's challenge. They do it because they can't find what they're looking for in a solo game. I consider that leeching, personally.

And I'm not saying the minute you're 40m away, you deserve to be kicked. If you're surviving out there by yourself near the end of the game, you might get to stay just so we can see if you can pull it off.

But people that run off, slow down our game and/or die leaving us with extra specimen to kill....that crap is annoying. And unfortunately, the game doesn't do a good job of addressing that through spawning, it seems like. One person can draw half the spawns on a map, leaving a large group of people with little to kill.

If rambos didn't slow down the game so much for the team players (playing a team game), I probably wouldn't care as much. But since I have the means to solve the problem, I do.

 

[Herborist]

People get their fair chance on our server. If they just continually run off by themselves wave after wave, yeah, we might kick them just because we want everyone playing as a team. If it's resulting in a really boring game, it's a definite kick. I suppose we could ask them to leave...but that usually results in "FU", so why bother?

And by leeching, I mean this. People play MP games and then go rambo because they want a greater challenge without being forced to play anyone's way but their own. They do that at the expense of other's challenge. They do it because they can't find what they're looking for in a solo game. I consider that leeching, personally.

And I'm not saying the minute you're 40m away, you deserve to be kicked. If you're surviving out there by yourself near the end of the game, you might get to stay just so we can see if you can pull it off.

But people that run off, slow down our game and/or die leaving us with extra specimen to kill....that crap is annoying. And unfortunately, the game doesn't do a good job of addressing that through spawning, it seems like. One person can draw half the spawns on a map, leaving a large group of people with little to kill.

If rambos didn't slow down the game so much for the team players (playing a team game), I probably wouldn't care as much. But since I have the means to solve the problem, I do.

You're not upset with "rambos", you're upset with poor players. Rambo slaughtered everyone single handed. Five times.

 

[Nanostrike]

Bottom line: You can Rambo if you want. But don't be surprised if people dislike you or kick you, because they can do so as well if they want. A Rambo, highest kills or not, taking up a slot for one of my teamplaying friends is just begging for a kickvote, and most players tend to feel the same way.

About 99% of the time, unless the Rambo is GODLY skilled (And my definition of such skill is very, very hard to live up to), I'd rather have a solid teamplayer, even if his skills are only average.

 

[Entangler]

I can't help but notice that by far the most repeated point against ramboing in this thread is "there's nothing left for us to kill". I'm afraid I just can't take that argument seriously. How is it that the one player is killing six players' worth of specimens? Is the difficulty too low, or (if on Suicidal) the game just too easy? If the one rambo can do all that by himself, surely the game would be completely and utterly bereft of challenge if all six were contributing. What's the point of that? What is a game without challenge?

Rambos that fail are annoying; rambos that fail spectacularly are amusing; rambos that do something amazingly stupid (like enraging a Scrake for no particular reason) that affects the rest of the team are votekick bait. But if a rambo can do well, I don't begrudge him that. If his success leaves the rest of the team with little to do, then unless he joined a lower difficulty game on purpose just to gratify himself, it isn't his fault that the game can't keep up.

 

[Herborist]

Bottom line: You can Rambo if you want. But don't be surprised if people dislike you or kick you, because they can do so as well if they want. A Rambo, highest kills or not, taking up a slot for one of my teamplaying friends is just begging for a kickvote, and most players tend to feel the same way.

About 99% of the time, unless the Rambo is GODLY skilled (And my definition of such skill is very, very hard to live up to), I'd rather have a solid teamplayer, even if his skills are only average.

So you would rather lose with an average player, than win with someone who can "rambo" and hold his own? That's asinine.

 

[smilin]

I can't help but notice that by far the most repeated point against ramboing in this thread is "there's nothing left for us to kill". I'm afraid I just can't take that argument seriously. How is it that the one player is killing six players' worth of specimens? Is the difficulty too low, or (if on Suicidal) the game just too easy?

It has nothing to do with skill.

Because of the way the spawn system works someone running off and killing a lot of specimens can cause fewer to spawn near the rest of the team.

 

[smilin]

So you would rather lose with an average player, than win with someone who can "rambo" and hold his own? That's asinine.

No, I'd rather win with a teammate than lose with an annoying rambo.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

No, I'd rather win with a teammate than lose with an annoying rambo.

Agree most of the time. This is one of those situations where "its not whether you win or lose, its how you played the game"

 

[Herborist]

Someone who can perform well without the need of a team is not an "annoying rambo". They say nothing to you (besides warnings, or other normal game chatter), and they're performing better than you. I'd rather have someone like that, than a teammate who harps about how we didn't save him in time when he inevitably dies.

 

[Entangler]

It has nothing to do with skill.

Because of the way the spawn system works someone running off and killing a lot of specimens can cause fewer to spawn near the rest of the team.

You didn't read the rest of the post, did you?

I can't help but notice that by far the most repeated point against ramboing in this thread is "there's nothing left for us to kill". I'm afraid I just can't take that argument seriously. How is it that the one player is killing six players' worth of specimens? Is the difficulty too low, or (if on Suicidal) the game just too easy? If the one rambo can do all that by himself, surely the game would be completely and utterly bereft of challenge if all six were contributing. What's the point of that? What is a game without challenge?

Rambos that fail are annoying; rambos that fail spectacularly are amusing; rambos that do something amazingly stupid (like enraging a Scrake for no particular reason) that affects the rest of the team are votekick bait. But if a rambo can do well, I don't begrudge him that. If his success leaves the rest of the team with little to do, then unless he joined a lower difficulty game on purpose just to gratify himself, it isn't his fault that the game can't keep up.

The point being: If the game's difficulty was adequate, that rambo would be swarmed and killed almost instantly. If that doesn't happen, then it isn't. If all six players were equally sharing the burden being taken on by that one rambo, the game would be so easy as to be not worth playing.

Unless, of course, the rest of the team is really, really bad...

 

[Nenjin]

I'd rather have someone like that, than a teammate who harps about how we didn't save him in time when he inevitably dies.

Yeah, because all the team players I know go out of their way to blame the rambo for their death. That's like, what, 1% of players? Compare that to rambos who, whether they open their gobs or not, still manage to screw up game play for the rest.

By the way, what difficulty ARE we talking about here Herborist?

Consider this as well. There can be a MAX of 32 specimen (iirc) in play at one time, for a perk-enabled game. While you're running around ramboing (and kiting to save yourself since you've got no one to watch your back) you're actually preventing new specimen from spawning. That more than anything underlines how self-centered and, well, stupid ramobing is in a KF co-op match. Even if you're not intending to cock block anyone, that's exactly what you're doing. Whether they're camping or not, you're slowing down the whole game for everyone else. The line between "engaged" and "bored" is paper thin for KF vets, and the only thing that keeps it fun is having a non-stop wave of guys to kill.

 

[Herborist]

Yeah, because all the team players I know go out of their way to blame the rambo for their death. That's like, what, 1% of players? Compare that to rambos who, whether they open their gobs or not, still manage to screw up game play for the rest.

By the way, what difficulty ARE we talking about here Herborist?

Consider this as well. There can be a MAX of 32 specimen (iirc) in play at one time, for a perk-enabled game. While you're running around ramboing (and kiting to save yourself since you've got no one to watch your back) you're actually preventing new specimen from spawning. That more than anything underlines how self-centered and, well, stupid ramobing is in a KF co-op match. Even if you're not intending to cock block anyone, that's exactly what you're doing. Whether they're camping or not, you're slowing down the whole game for everyone else. The line between "engaged" and "bored" is paper thin for KF vets, and the only thing that keeps it fun is having a non-stop wave of guys to kill.

Your post contains a lot of conflicting thoughts.

I already said above that "rambo'ing" should only be condoned if they're successful, so people who run off and die aren't successful and I condemn them just like you do.

Surely the game MUST prioritize targets and spawn specimens near the majority of players, who, as you are insisting, are all sticking together. One player cannot be running around the map with 30+ specimens in tow.

If you're not engaged in what you're playing, then you're playing a game mode that's too easy for you. Running off alone isn't possible on suicidal.

If you could, please resist useless hyperbole and histrionics in your posts. I'm not sure how you found the "you're preventing specimens from spawning!" argument to be feasible, but I assure you, it's mathematically not.

 

[Nenjin]

Surely the game MUST prioritize targets and spawn specimens near the majority of players, who, as you are insisting, are all sticking together. One player cannot be running around the map with 30+ specimens in tow.

I don't think that it does. I think it just looks for the presence of a player near a spawn volume. I don't think it cares how many there are. Which is why rambos running through the level get a disproportionate number of specimen on them. If it was equalized, I wouldn't be complaining, would I? You'd be getting an appropriate number of spawns, and I wouldn't be standing there going "Where the hell are all the specimen?"

If you're not engaged in what you're playing, then you're playing a game mode that's too easy for you. Running off alone isn't possible on suicidal.

Yes, you can. And yes, I have been that bored on suicidal. I'm not claiming to be uber, at all. But I've been bored on suicidal because of this problem.

If you could, please resist useless hyperbole and histrionics in your posts. I'm not sure how you found the "you're preventing specimens from spawning!" argument to be feasible, but I assure you, it's mathematically not.

Again, yes you can. Every specimen following you is part of the cap. As the other players kill specimen, the chance they will spawn on you instead (and get kited) increases. Eventually you have the bulk of spawned specimens on you. Some spawns will return to the other group as you kill them off...but the flow of specimen to the group is obviously impacted.

I'm not saying you can dominate every single specimen, that's almost impossible. But you can tie up the majority of them, and take away new fresh spawns from the other group, enough that it makes for a boring game for them.

 

[Herborist]

I don't think that it does. I think it just looks for the presence of a player near a spawn volume. I don't think it cares how many there are. Which is why rambos running through the level get a disproportionate number of specimen on them. If it was equalized, I wouldn't be complaining, would I? You'd be getting an appropriate number of spawns, and I wouldn't be standing there going "Where the hell are all the specimen?"

Yes, you can. And yes, I have been that bored on suicidal. I'm not claiming to be uber, at all. But I've been bored on suicidal because of this problem.

Again, yes you can. Every specimen following you is part of the cap. As the other players kill specimen, the chance they will spawn on you instead (and get kited) increases. Eventually you have the bulk of spawned specimens on you. Some spawns will return to the other group as you kill them off...but the flow of specimen to the group is obviously impacted.

I'm not saying you can dominate every single specimen, that's almost impossible. But you can tie up the majority of them, and take away new fresh spawns from the other group, enough that it makes for a boring game for them.

In almost every map there are specially marked spawn spots that they spawn from. Sometimes these spawn points are easy to spot, other times not so much - in WestLondon there's a spawn point above the bridge so that most of the crawlers and stalkers are coming from there. The game will not choose to all specimens in one area, so unless the solo player runs by you and kites the specimens away from you, your argument is fundamentally invalid.

And when I say it's impossible to solo on suicidal, I don't mean it's impossible to branch off from the group, I mean it's impossible to clear 10 suicidal waves and kill the patriarch alone. It just is. Perhaps you ran off into the distance and killed a few specimens, but you don't clear an entire wave single handed.

I'd also like to mention bias: you're obviously looking for information that confirms your argument, and I am too. So unless you can disprove my points, or vice versa, this argument is going nowhere. Ask someone from TWI how monsters spawn - if they do indeed spawn the way you suggest, then I concede that solo play detracts from the mutual experience of all the other players, but if it doesn't, then going solo does nothing at all to the five other players, and you are all therefore just whining.

 

[Temstar]

Spawn points are not all active at the same time. The game will pick a few closest spawn points that's not within the players line of sight.