Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?

[brphoenix]

I'm not entirely sure of how to calculate the odds of this perk going into KF sometime... and I do not want to give false hopes to anyone (though I'm kinda doing it to myself :/)... so, pros and cons

Pros:

I heard there was a perk dedicated to pistols in the original mod. +1

70% of pool voters would like this perk in-game. +1

Most of this perk's ideas aren't difficult to implement compared to other suggestions I've seen here. +1

⅔ of this perk's weapons are already implemented. +1

It's a step towards balancing SSs. +1

Cons:

I've yet to hear someone saying his suggestion got implemented. -1

Adding perks is something big, and bring a whole lot of trouble. -1

It would require a new weapon, which would need to be balanced. -1

Most players are asking for a single/dual switch for pistols on the fly. This would require a LOT of coding, I think. -1


Well, those are the pros and cons I can think of... For a grand total of +1.

Of course, that means nothing. Depends on the devs, whether they want to add or not. Still, +1

 

[Undedd Jester]

A fair point, I'd imagine its something they will probably look into after balancing the sharpshooter, since that seems to be the major rage at the moment. Depending on how much he is cut down by will most likely have an effect on the likelyhood of the Pistoleer being added.

I wouldn't say its unlikely that the perk will be added, but I think it will majorly boil down to how the game will change when the SS is nerfed and whether or not the Pistoleer would serve a purpose in th game

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

the one thing that this suggestion has going for it is that out of all the suggestions for perks throughout the forums, this is the simpliest in form and has the most potential. not saying it WILL get implimented, but that it has the best chance.

 

[omarfw]

Many suggestions made by the KF community have been implemented. Not huge ones like new perks, but weapons, adjustments, balance issues, graphical tweaks, all the little stuff, many of the current changes were posted on this forum at one point. Not saying TWI must have read the forums and used those suggestions, but it's far too non-coincidental.

 

[Madhate969]

actually, I think the Demoman came from the forum. I didn't have the game then (i didn't even have the game on the free weekend, I only got it cause my brother bought it for me around thanksgiving, best gift I ever got) but I like reading the old threads to see if there are any ideas, and i saw one from when the level up came out, and it seemed like the demoman was a forum Idea

 

[Phantomspiker]

I don't see the point of this perk to be honest, anything that this perk could do could be done much better by the commando or support specialist.

 

[Madhate969]

and likewise there is nothing a support can do that can't be done better by a commando (piles of little zeds) or a demo (big damage ina small area) other than welding, and they could give that to the medic, so he has something to do then the team is working together well. But i like playing with the shotgun, so i'm glad they have the support, and I think a pistol guy would be cool also

 

[Phantomspiker]

and likewise there is nothing a support can do that can't be done better by a commando (piles of little zeds) or a demo (big damage ina small area) other than welding, and they could give that to the medic, so he has something to do then the team is working together well. But i like playing with the shotgun, so i'm glad they have the support, and I think a pistol guy would be cool also

The shotguns do have their strengths over the assault rifles though, for instance I would rather use a hunting shotgun or an aa12 on bigger enemies than an ak or scar. The demoman perk is also a great last line of defense class when crap really starts to hit the fan.

What would be the gunslinger's strengths in terms of killing zeds? I personally just see myself reloading more than shooting because of the smaller magazines. Now would it be a fun perk? Sure, but I think it would just cause more harm to the team in the long run.

 

[Madhate969]

Also a factor would be, people first weapon experiance would be with the GS, so if the GS is a bit weaker/ more limited and other perks it would be ok, since right now everyone is getting started with the FP killer perk, and we have tons of them, and half are noobs. With how the GS is looking it would be a commando/SS blend. Small guns for lots of bullets/trash clearing at shorter ranges, and then a huge revolver for stopping power on the big ones. I don't this would create problems, but It would be a nice perk to figure out the game on since you have a couple of tactic options, and it just sounds awesome, as well as it seems like one I would use to solo,

 

[brphoenix]

The shotguns do have their strengths over the assault rifles though, for instance I would rather use a hunting shotgun or an aa12 on bigger enemies than an ak or scar. The demoman perk is also a great last line of defense class when crap really starts to hit the fan.

What would be the gunslinger's strengths in terms of killing zeds? I personally just see myself reloading more than shooting because of the smaller magazines. Now would it be a fun perk? Sure, but I think it would just cause more harm to the team in the long run.

Aaaaand another one who did not read the thread.

We want the gunslinger perk to be a versatile, "all around" perk. This means having a little of everything a weapon can bring to the battle: Crowd control for smaller zeds, can handle middle-level zeds, and has a long-range, powerful weapon to take down the big guys.
No other perk does that, except Sharpie, which WILL be nerfed ( or at least I hope it does)

 

[Phantomspiker]

Aaaaand another one who did not read the thread.

We want the gunslinger perk to be a versatile, "all around" perk. This means having a little of everything a weapon can bring to the battle: Crowd control for smaller zeds, can handle middle-level zeds, and has a long-range, powerful weapon to take down the big guys.
No other perk does that, except Sharpie, which WILL be nerfed ( or at least I hope it does)

Yeah, we already have that perk. Its called the Commando.

Oh yeah....i did read the thread.

 

[Madhate969]

I have to disagree about the commando taking down the big guys, in the tatic section there is a thread about how to handle scraks and FP with a commando. the the general concenus is, let them SS get it, if they refuse then kite if possible, or spray and pray.
I know not everyone is going to want to play the GS, and there isn't a need to do any new perks, the game would have been fine without the Demoman (some smoke haters would say better), but i think it would be fun, and useful enough. Just like the demoman have found a niche,a nd some players love the demoman, I think the GS has enough support that if it does come out, that there will be plenty of players using the perk. And unlike the demoman, noone will have their vision blocked

 

[Phantomspiker]

I have to disagree about the commando taking down the big guys, in the tatic section there is a thread about how to handle scraks and FP with a commando. the the general concenus is, let them SS get it, if they refuse then kite if possible, or spray and pray.
I know not everyone is going to want to play the GS, and there isn't a need to do any new perks, the game would have been fine without the Demoman (some smoke haters would say better), but i think it would be fun, and useful enough. Just like the demoman have found a niche,a nd some players love the demoman, I think the GS has enough support that if it does come out, that there will be plenty of players using the perk. And unlike the demoman, noone will have their vision blocked

I agree that the commando isn't the greatest weapon for the task, but I don't think we need another class that can take down bigger enemies.

I will say that I probably wouldn't be bothered by the addition of the GS perk, but I think that their are more pressing matters to attend to. I feel that Tripwire's resources would be better spent on new maps, game types, enemies and even new firebug weapons. These additions would have a much greater impact on Killing Floor in my opinion.

 

[Reise]

Yeah, we already have that perk. Its called the Commando.

Oh yeah....i did read the thread.

Variety is bad!

 

[Phantomspiker]

Actually if you read my post above yours you would see that I think quite the opposite.

I will say that I probably wouldn't be bothered by the addition of the GS perk, but I think that their are more pressing matters to attend to. I feel that Tripwire's resources would be better spent on new maps, game types, enemies and even new firebug weapons. These additions would have a much greater impact on Killing Floor in my opinion.

See? I even quoted it for you. I think that these additions would add even more variety than a perk that really wouldn't add anything substantial to game play

 

[Madhate969]

I agree that the commando isn't the greatest weapon for the task, but I don't think we need another class that can take down bigger enemies.

I will say that I probably wouldn't be bothered by the addition of the GS perk, but I think that their are more pressing matters to attend to. I feel that Tripwire's resources would be better spent on new maps, game types, enemies and even new firebug weapons. These additions would have a much greater impact on Killing Floor in my opinion.

I think it would be nice to have something to challenge the SS, and an alternitive to using tons of ammo or changing to a SS when the FPs arrive

I think modders and making plenty of wonderful maps (and Fel and Dex are working on 2 story maps right now)
I have seen a couple of game type mods for download, I wouldn't mind seeing them, but we just got DA2 so we have options
I would like new enemies, but I don't think they are more needed than a new perk.
New FB weapons, you are 100% correct, i do not think that making a perk is more important than working on the FB and zerker. But once those are fixed, I hope they read thru here and think about the GS. And if so I want to make sure they have all kinds ideas and opinions to start with

 

[Reise]

You have no idea how many times I've seen the "TW has more important things to do" line.

It's a suggestion. Resources aren't going to be committed to it unless TW wants to do so. Obviously this is secondary to patching and whatever fixes need to be made.

 

[brphoenix]

This perk would provide variety, yes, but it wouldn't be proficient at any of those ranges. Let me explain, perk by perk, and you'll see what I mean:

Commandos: They are efficient in both short and middle range, but lack firepower to take down larger zeds;

Firebugs: Middle range, VERY effective on huge crowds;

Demolitions: Middle to long range, can take down bigger stuff, but must spend ammo carefully;

Berserkers: Um... obvious please?

Support: May choose one of two paths, taking down zeds with shotguns at short range, or on the back, welding the door;

Medic: Healing please;

Sharpshooters: while they are able to hand all ranges, it's mainly because they have access to five weapons, while two of them com in "pairs" - one is the other's upgrade - giving long, middle and short range. This is, of course, what the GS would be able to do. But, if you have read the whole thread, you'd see that the pistols are NOT sharpshooters weapons.

My point is, commandos aren't optimally versatile, since they can't handle really long ranges like a sharpie can, and can't handle a FP.
The GS would be a class that can take them down at longer ranges, yet would require a lot of skill to do so. It's a class that is versatile, that can do what other perks do, but can't do as well as others can.
He'd be better at long range than Commando, but Sharpies would outshine him.
He'd be better at middle range than Support is, but Commando would be better.
And he'd be better at short range than the before-M14-spam sharpie was, but worse than Berserker or Support.

Overall, he'd be a perk you'd choose if you want to handle every part of the game, kinda at the same time, but without being the best at them. Or at least that's what I want it to be.

A true versatile, all around perk.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

range is a variable, but along with that is strength of the weapon vs. each individual type of specimen. granted the handguns currently in the game would not be enough against FP/Scrakes at any range unless they were at low health, which dual handcannons would be strong enough to finish them off. however should the handgun damage that is currently applied to the SS be transfered to the new gunslinger perk, the handguns would be satisfactory against all the zeds except FP/Scrakes for short-medium range. should the headshot damage received by SS with handguns also be transfered but ONLY apply with handguns, that would give a range boost against all the tier 1 and tier 2 zeds.

the gunslinger would never be the role to take down FP and Scrakes, but with enough abilities, it could do just fine as a well balanced perk against the majority of zeds from primarily short/medium range, but even extend to further distances with accurate headshots.

 

[robdude19]

Yes to Gunslinger, if done right.

Yes to Gunslinger, if done right.

All perks have their range limits, except the SS. Cutting M14 ammo reserve in half and/or replacing the laser sight with a scope, in addition to removing the pistol boosts, would effectively limit the SS's effectiveness at close range, creating more balance compared to the other perks. (The laser sight should be given to the LAR, encouraging non-spammy short-range tactics).

Having said that, you wouldn't want to introduce a new perk that is also effective at all ranges, so you shouldn't have a scope on the S&W 500. Let the Gunslinger operate at short-mid range, similar to Commando, but also give him new abilities to distinguish him from Commando.

Someone else suggested quick draw to be included in the perk stats, I was thinking the same thing. From reading many, many posts, here's my idea:

Gunslinger lvl 6
+70% damage with handguns
-50% recoil with handguns
50% faster reload with handguns
+25% handgun ammo
+15% movement speed with handguns
60% faster draw with handguns
70% discount on Handcannon and S&W 500
Spawn with S&W 500

The damage boost needs to be substantial due to limited range, rate of fire, no reflex sights, and small clip capacity. His limited firepower will be compensated with high mobility and unique akimbo tactics (independant weapon firing & reloading, and swapping to single pistol on the fly). The S&W 500 should put out about 100-125 dmg per shot, more than the Handcannon but less than the LAR. Since it has only 5 shots per reload, the S&W 500 needs another trick to give it an advantage over the Handcannon: 25-50% extra damage against tough zeds (husk, scrake & FP). This can be justified as extra penetrating power against the tough leather-like zed skin. This would give the GS an edge over the Commando against tough zeds.

The GS reload and recoil boosts are in between the SS and Commando. Movement speed is less than Zerk and Medic. He gets the highest base dmg multiplier next to zerk. This is to compete with the Support's stacking penetration damage and the SS's extra headshot dmg. He does all of his shooting with a single pistol aimed ironsight or akimbo hip-firing. This gives him short to medium range and moderate to substantial firepower depending on which he uses, which he can switch at will. This flexibility, combined with quick draw and independant akimbo operation, would make the Gunslinger a finesse perk. He could run and gun when needed, provide moderate sustained gun support (continuous firing/reloading between 2 guns), high emergency gun support with quick weapon switches, and even pluck targets slowly from a distance. Note that the GS would be the only perk besides SS that can switch between 3 different perk weapons, and quickly at that. If pistol boosts were taken from SS, the GS would have a distinct advantage in this regard.

Headshots would count for SS points and pistol damage would count for GS points, so a headshot could award points to both perks or just the SS.

As for siren resistance, it sounds pretty gimmicky and arbitrary. Bloat resistance for Medic/Zerk makes some sense since they have better armor/dmg resist. Triggering zed time at will would be fun but should not be implemented with the Gunslinger since it would basically require a rage meter and be out of place. I mentioned a while back that zed time could be triggered at will with a remote-detonated claymore mine, something epic like that would be a better way to activate zed time imo.

...Upon further consideration, I think it might be good to put a 2X scope on the S&W 500 after all, since the GS would be very similar to the Commando in terms of effective range otherwise. Again, the style of combat would still differentiate it, but with similar ranges, it would largely be a matter of personal taste, the main tactical advantage being extra S&W 500 dmg against tough zeds.

EDIT: no scope on the S&W 500, that would be a Sharpshooter weapon.