IanTheM1's Massive Berserker Idea Thread

[IanTheM1]

Hi there, folks! Me and my KF team have been talking lots lately about perk balance and other such quandaries, and out of all these discussions, the most to be said has been about the Berserker. I've come up with a nice bounty of ideas for the class, so I thought I might as well consolidate them.

To start off with, let me explain what I feel the Berserker is meant to accomplish.

1) The first line of offense or defense. The Berserker, by nature, is always in the thick of action. This means that when your team has to fight your way through a horde of Zeds, the Berserker leads, and when holding down a particular spot, the Berserker is ahead of the firing line, softening enemies or finishing them off.

2) Pinch attacker. Due to his speed bonus, the Berserker should potentially be first-responder to any emergencies, helping to fight back the Zeds as they overrun a particular hold point. (This is admittedly somewhat naive, since ranged attack capability beats travel time, but I'd say this more depends on map and map location.)

3) The tanking class. The Berserker should have the capability to take punishment for the rest of his team when necessary, mainly when it comes to Scrakes and Fleshpounds (and potentially the Patriarch).


Berserker Offense

Berserker Problem 1: Weapon variety, and reasons to use the Fire Axe.

The current melee weapons are thus:

Knife - Fast, free, though not particularly strong.
Machete - Fast, cheap, reasonably strong.
Fire Axe - Slow, slightly less cheap, somewhat stronger, range bonus.
Chainsaw - Slow movement, but constant damage, highest melee price, supposed to be strong but currently borked.
Katana - Fast, highest melee price, very strong, range bonus.

The issue is that once you get the Chainsaw, or more likely, the Katana there's no reason to use the previous weapons. I find this okay for the Machete, since it's basically an upgraded knife, but the Fire Axe seems left in the dust by comparison.

Here's my suggested secondary effects for the weapons:

Knife - N/A

Machete - Don't know. I don't think it needs one, since it's basically Knife Level 2, but I'm open to ideas.

Fire Axe - Has the strongest strike damage due to its slow speed, as well as the ability to stun enemies. After all, that thing is heavy!

Chainsaw - Technically doesn't get one, as its constant damage is its special effect. But I would suggest a mechanic where your initial strike on a zed gains a slight goring bonus - a bit of burst damage to help bring the Chainsaw back to where it's supposed to be.

Katana - Decapitation bonus, since it's a big, sharp sword.


My overall goal with these weapon changes is to make using more than one more attractive, as well as giving each one a more distinct flavor and use. The way I see it, the Fire Axe is your "tanking" weapon to use against heavy Zeds. The Chainsaw is for laying waste to a long line of Zeds, railroading through them en masse. The Katana should be for finesse and using its speed benefits for precision strikes.


Berserker Problem 2: The Chainsaw needs help.

I know it's been said a million times, but I can't just skip this. The Chainsaw needs some help, beyond my goring bonus idea above. The Katana's superior range, speed, and weight were already forcing the Chainsaw out of use, but once Level Up borked the Chainsaw's ability to kill, there's really no clear reason to use it anymore.

This has more to do with the Katana being so dang strong, but I'd rather see the Chainsaw buffed to compensate than the Katana nerfed.

Seems like the Chainsaw could stand to be less heavy, less speed-reducing, and have slightly longer range.


Berserker Problem 3: The Katana should be fixed.

This isn't so much a suggestion as it is a criticism - the Katana change is dumb. There's really no getting around it. Why even bother removing auto-fire if incessantly clicking the button still works? This doesn't balance the weapon, it just makes it more annoying to use. Bring back Katana auto-fire. Zed time extensions and breaks in Zed attacks are reason enough to not want to hold the button down all the time.


Berserker Problem 4: Single target specialization.

The Berserker, even with the Chainsaw, is very single target-focused. No matter which weapon you choose, your attack options are limited and uninteresting. I'd propose that the melee power attacks be turned into an area of effect, sweeping attack in front of the Berserker to help clear hordes of Zeds, either in order to advance or to better hold a position.

Presumably this means that the power attacks would stop being quite as powerful for balance reasons, but that's what my weapon effect tweaks were meant to help fill in for.


Berserker Defense

Berserker Problem 5: Survivability

Berserker has issues with staying alive. Theoretically, his speed bonuses should help, but they mean nothing if he's pinned down by tons of Zeds. He also can't really do anything against a Fleshpound post-Level Up, which is bad. On top of all that, the Berserker has several counters, and through some folly of randomization and map design, tend to stack like crazy - multiple Sirens, Sirens spawning right next to Bloats (this really needs to stop, because it's a silly design), a full half-wave of Crawlers, etc.

These are all possible options to make the Berserker more survivable.

- Increase Berserker damage resistance. Honestly, I don't understand why Field Medic gets so much better damage reduction than the Berserker. Yes, I know that the FM's is exclusive to body armor, but there's a huge gap in reduction all the same.

Right now the Berserker caps out at 25% damage resistance (versus the Medic's 75% better body armor). I feel this should easily go as high as about 50%. Maybe 10% per level, capping at 60% at level 6?

- Blood healing. Bloodlust. Whatever you want to call it. Give the Berserker back a portion of health based on damage done to enemies with melee weapons. I'm not entirely sure of the programming logistics of this, and it's somewhat realism-breaking, but it would also add even more flair to the class and also stops the Berserker being able to abuse the combination of straight damage resistance and speed with ranged weapons.

EDIT: - Melee damage resistance! Not sure why I didn't think of this. Slightly reduces the abuse-threshold of the straight resistance bonus, and would have higher numbers (just like the buff above, in upwards of 60% at least). And the best part is that it's even pretty dang balanced, since it means the Berserker starts taking more damage from his main counter-Zeds, the Siren and the Husk, yet also reduces the obnoxiousness of Crawlers. A win-win-win-win scenario!

- Consider changing the Bloat bile resistance to something else. This perk bonus always confused me for both the Medic and the Berserker. I suppose the idea is that with bile resistance the Berserker can fight in tight quarters without having to worry about his teammates blowing up Bloats around him, but this seems like an unlikely situation to me. I'm not clear why the Medic gets it at all (Siren resistance seems like a more interesting one for the Medic to me personally, but that's another thread).

One possibility is reducing the percentage slightly and instead turning it into Fleshpound resistance. After all, the Berserker is a melee expert, surely he knows how to deal with a crazy mutant with threshers on his arms, right?

Importantly, this adds to the Berserker's ability to take hits for the team. Right now Fleshpounds are incredibly dangerous to Berserkers because unlike Scrakes, they can't be stunned or controlled in any viable way. Every other class has the massive (or slight, depending on the map/location) advantage of range, whereas Berserkers either have to face the horror of the double-fist instant kill, or switch to a ranged weapon and plink at the FP with the rest of his team.


That about wraps up all of my ideas. Hopefully they entertained or perhaps even inspired some more ideas on how to lift the Berserker up a bit. Lemme know what you think!

 

[LadasN]

Personally, for the machete, I'd kinda like to see dual wielded machetes. Kind of like dual 9mms, you use it to get fast rate of fire and clean up gorefasts, clots and other minor threats. Thats my only imput I feel I can say for the berserker that I can not find a serious drawback to.
Thanks.

 

[robdude19]

1) Let the zerk dual-wield machetes, with a faster attack rate than the katana (ideal for quickly clearing weaker zeds); should have a powerful alt-fire scissor attack that does as much damage as the katana, but with slower attack rate than katana (to kill a gorefast in one hit without switching weapons)

2) Buff the axe, or let the axe hit multiple targets, or create a new tier 3 heavy axe/ ball and chain that hits multiple targets; a ball and chain could have a 360 alt-fire attack (good when surrounded); OR, give all weapons multiple target alt-fire attack like you said (would offer extra versatility in a pinch without switching weapons, increasing survivability); make right-click trigger alt-fire for melee weapons instead of mouse wheel (posted here)

3) Buff the chainsaw and reduce movement speed penalty; give damage bonus against husks, scrakes, and fps (the big weapon should handle the big zeds)

4) Make zerk speed bonus and damage resistance inverse proportional to health; as his health decreases, his survivability increases (more self-reliant)

5) Increase zerk speed during zed time (awesome, over-the-top concept, gives zerk extra style, discussed here).

Buffing the chainsaw and axe would be an easy fix to give them more game play, while the other suggestions would offer much more to the perk in general. I particularly like your alt-fire area attack idea, perhaps each successive strike would do less damage after the first like the xbow. This wouldn't apply much to the chainsaw, machete or knife but would help for the axe and katana, the disadvantage being it would remove a possible incentive for using a future tier 3 multi-attack melee weapon like a heavy axe or ball and chain.

 

[IanTheM1]

1) Let the zerk dual-wield machetes, with a faster attack rate than the katana (ideal for quickly clearing weaker zeds); should have a powerful alt-fire scissor attack that does as much damage as the katana, but with slower attack rate than katana (to kill a gorefast in one hit without switching weapons)

I like this idea. Definitely balances itself out, and gives the Machete something special.

2) Buff the axe, or let the axe hit multiple targets, or create a new tier 3 heavy axe/ ball and chain that hits multiple targets; a ball and chain could have a 360 alt-fire attack (good when surrounded); OR, give all weapons multiple target alt-fire attack like you said (would offer extra versatility in a pinch without switching weapons, increasing survivability); make right-click trigger alt-fire for melee weapons instead of mouse wheel (posted here)

D'oh. I always forget this. The moment I started playing KF I switched alt-fire to right click and ironsights to middle mouse, since I had recently played FEAR where ironsights were middle mouse, IIRC, and in every other game alt-fire is right click.

3) Buff the chainsaw and reduce movement speed penalty; give damage bonus against husks, scrakes, and fps (the big weapon should handle the big zeds)

Not sure about this. I've always seen the Chainsaw as a train of death, plowing in a straight line through weaker Zeds. I feel like all three weapons should offer something against tougher Zeds, and those three offer a clear picture of how. Katana allows dodging Husk projectiles, Axe allows stunning Scrakes, Chainsaw allows big damage trading against the FP.

4) Make zerk speed bonus and damage resistance inverse proportional to health; as his health decreases, his survivability increases (more self-reliant)

I've always disliked this sort of system, since it's more of a stop-gap solution, and is gameable. I've seen problems in other games that used something similar.

5) Increase zerk speed during zed time (awesome, over-the-top concept, gives zerk extra style, discussed here).

I actually considered adding that to my post since it is wicked cool, but I felt it was a little too odd, would require some code work for sure, and didn't really fix any specific problem. I do like that it would effectively turn the Berserker into a Zed time machine.

the disadvantage being it would remove a possible incentive for using a future tier 3 multi-attack melee weapon like a heavy axe or ball and chain.

I don't see a ball and chain being particularly realistic, nor a heavy axe. Especially since the Fire Axe should already be a heavy axe.

 

[Kogitsune]

I actually considered adding that to my post since it is wicked cool, but I felt it was a little too odd, would require some code work for sure, and didn't really fix any specific problem. I do like that it would effectively turn the Berserker into a Zed time machine.

Although I don't have the code to backup my words, the idea is fairly simple:

Speed boost in direct relation to the slow down. 50% slower in zed time? Double the speed to make it normal speed.

Same could be applied to the weapon animations and timing.

I feel it's feasible, considering that both are already implemented in the game ( run speed and reload / attack speed on a per-perk basis ), but the effect would take some work to balance away from slicing the crap out of everything within striking range, but not to the point of just getting away faster.

The main issue is that you run into the berserkers who chain off the limit of extensions ( happens more often on higher difficulties ) would be outright killing machines that could probably clean a whole mob inside the limit rather than everything in arm's reach.

So rule of cool versus game breaking.

 

[Keaton Fox]

I never play Berserker but I have a weak random idea for them. Some sorta adrenaline rush, for higher level Berserkers. When they have less than 20 health they move XX% fast and do XX% more damage. When health is back over 20, it's over.

I know the idea sucks, but the percentages can be anything that seems fair. It doesn't seem like something they can try to do to get the bonus, since they be risking easy death.

 

[robdude19]

I never play Berserker but I have a weak random idea for them. Some sorta adrenaline rush, for higher level Berserkers. When they have less than 20 health they move XX% fast and do XX% more damage. When health is back over 20, it's over.

I know the idea sucks, but the percentages can be anything that seems fair. It doesn't seem like something they can try to do to get the bonus, since they be risking easy death.

My original thought was similar, i.e. increasing boosts at lower health levels, but a sudden jump in speed might throw off your melee strike, so it should be a gradual boost. I'd stay away from faster melee attack, since it would probably get really annoying having to constantly adjust to the timing, but faster movement speed should have a lesser effect in that regard. I'd also stay away from damage increase and keep this skill a defensive measure so zerks don't run off too much, but rather would be better able to get to safety when they take too many licks.

 

[Smilomaniac]

@IanTheM1

Interesting read, nice insight.

Every other class has the massive (or slight, depending on the map/location) advantage of range, whereas Berserkers either have to face the horror of the double-fist instant kill, or switch to a ranged weapon and plink at the FP with the rest of his team.

I think that this is what makes a berserker interesting to play, knowing when to get the hell out of there and let the others deal with it.

But I have an idea on how to deal with this.

Introducing the Riot Shield.

Basicly it's a 100-200 Hitpoint shield that you take out in order to block things. Only it, takes damage, not you. On a side note you could wield a machete or knife(as long as it's one-handed) weapon at the same time.
So when the Fleshpounder comes running, you whip out the shield and stand firm until the others take it down, enabling you to stand there at least, and keeping the pounder at bay from the others.

Alt fire makes you block with the shield, and main fire is swinging or stabbing with the knife/machete. It's made of plexi-glass obviously so you can see through.

Going back to the why-I-think-zerker-is-fun, I think that keeping beserkers vurnerable against some things also require that you can't stun with the axe, or shouldn't be able to at least against a fleshpounder. if you can just stunlock them, it takes out the effort. But if it worked against anything lower, possibly also against scrakes(but I'd rather it didn't), I think that would be awesome.
If you could interrupt a siren, husk or bloat with an axe swing, that would be neat.

I'm all for making the berserker more fun to play though, nice read!

 

[Keaton Fox]

My original thought was similar, i.e. increasing boosts at lower health levels, but a sudden jump in speed might throw off your melee strike, so it should be a gradual boost. I'd stay away from faster melee attack, since it would probably get really annoying having to constantly adjust to the timing, but faster movement speed should have a lesser effect in that regard. I'd also stay away from damage increase and keep this skill a defensive measure so zerks don't run off too much, but rather would be better able to get to safety when they take too many licks.

Yea I was thinking if they have such low health, attacking is their defense. I also don't wouldn't plan on having faster attack. The idea is just meant to keep them alive without it being too easy to stay alive.

 

[IanTheM1]

I think that this is what makes a berserker interesting to play, knowing when to get the hell out of there and let the others deal with it.

But I have an idea on how to deal with this.

Introducing the Riot Shield.

Basicly it's a 100-200 Hitpoint shield that you take out in order to block things. Only it, takes damage, not you. On a side note you could wield a machete or knife(as long as it's one-handed) weapon at the same time.
So when the Fleshpounder comes running, you whip out the shield and stand firm until the others take it down, enabling you to stand there at least, and keeping the pounder at bay from the others.

Alt fire makes you block with the shield, and main fire is swinging or stabbing with the knife/machete. It's made of plexi-glass obviously so you can see through.

Not a bad idea. It's definitely another solid concept for adding to his defense, especially since at least one of the characters is in fact a riot cop, as I recall.

Going back to the why-I-think-zerker-is-fun, I think that keeping beserkers vurnerable against some things also require that you can't stun with the axe, or shouldn't be able to at least against a fleshpounder. if you can just stunlock them, it takes out the effort. But if it worked against anything lower, possibly also against scrakes(but I'd rather it didn't), I think that would be awesome.
If you could interrupt a siren, husk or bloat with an axe swing, that would be neat.

Well, as far as I know you can't stun Fleshpounds (outside of their AI borking up every so often), so no worries there. I'm definitely not looking to trivialize FPs, just make it so that the Berserker isn't rendered useless. And I think it's fair mostly because of how badly his other weaknesses tend to gang up - hordes of Crawlers, Bloats always spawn with Sirens, stacked Sirens, etc.

Thanks for the kind words!


Also, a small correction, since I happened to recheck this last night - as part of adding the sweep move, the Fire Axe's primary and secondary attack animations would have to be reversed, not that it's a major concenr.

 

[BEEEEEES]

Some great ideas.

To comment on movespeed though: movespeed doesn't help in tight situations or when zeds are blocking where you need to go. Movespeed does not equal increased survivability.

Crowd-control does, however. Mad props to making alt-fire on weapons a sweeping strike, but it had better interrupt attacks or those GD gorefasts are still going to be every bit as annoying with their BS non-animating "hahaha I'm not interrupted" attacks. Side note: if the chainsaw alt-fire is going to be a sweeping attack...please change the animation to sweep side-to-side not up 'n down. Use the animations common sense dictates, please.

...and put some teeth back on the chainsaw primary fire- take those stupid feather ticklers offa there.

 

[Skunkee]

I've been on the "Give certain melee weapons a sweeping attack in a Berserkers hands" bandwagon for months. However, I think this might be difficult to code since modifying how a weapon operates when a specific perk uses it would be harder to code than say "Perk A gets X% more damage from gun B".

I think it's in the realm of possibility, though, since firebug grenades turn into molotovs at ranks 3 and above.

 

[robdude19]

Some great ideas.

To comment on movespeed though: movespeed doesn't help in tight situations or when zeds are blocking where you need to go. Movespeed does not equal increased survivability.

Crowd-control does, however. Mad props to making alt-fire on weapons a sweeping strike, but it had better interrupt attacks or those GD gorefasts are still going to be every bit as annoying with their BS non-animating "hahaha I'm not interrupted" attacks. Side note: if the chainsaw alt-fire is going to be a sweeping attack...please change the animation to sweep side-to-side not up 'n down. Use the animations common sense dictates, please.

...and put some teeth back on the chainsaw primary fire- take those stupid feather ticklers offa there.

Yes, in general move speed does increase survivability. Why do you think good medics can solo 100+ zeds? Zerk is the only other class that can really do that, it's no coincidence that he also has a speed boost. It helps keep you from getting trapped as long as you have good situational awareness. Crowd control also increases survivability, so sweeping alt-fire attacks would be great in addition to a low-health speed/resistance boost. Sweep attacks would help get you out of traps, where you can take advantage of your move speed again.

 

[Skunkee]

@IanTheM1

Interesting read, nice insight.



I think that this is what makes a berserker interesting to play, knowing when to get the hell out of there and let the others deal with it.

But I have an idea on how to deal with this.

Introducing the Riot Shield.

Ugh. Sooooooo many threads have been made about riot shields. The community has a generally mixed response to them. I'm on the "FFFFFFFFFF no" side of that issue.

 

[Smilomaniac]

Ugh. Sooooooo many threads have been made about riot shields. The community has a generally mixed response to them. I'm on the "FFFFFFFFFF no" side of that issue.

This is the part where you insert a "why"
I'm sure you've stated it before, but you could at least link to a prior thread on the topic if you have so much against it.

I think a riot shield would fit very much into the theme of the game, seeing as there are police officers in the mix, and that you're keeping hordes of mindless bastards off.
It also adds a tactical part to the game, enabling a player to hold a front while the rest deals with something more pressing.

An alternative could be a weapon such as a sledgehammer that has a very slow attackspeed and windup, but knocks back Zeds. Maybe even an FP on a headshot (which would take skill).

 

[Skunkee]

[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/search.php?searchid=420651[/URL]

Somewhere in those posts.

Mainly, I feel that it's just unnecessary. I think it would basically delay the inevitable (since you'd be forced to use a knife/machete while using it) and end up being a waste of quid. If any major change needs to happen to the berserker, it should be to break up the monotony of the existing weapons rather than adding new ones.

When it all boils down: Nobody uses the machete or the fireaxe. Berserker is the only perk besides firebug where you're basically inclined to skip over all the other options along the way.

Examples:
Support specialists still use the shotgun for some situations even if they have the AA12 (since they use different sources of ammo, the regular shotgun or hunting shotgun is a better choice for weaker zeds).

Commando still uses the bullpup for weaker specimens because it has a high ammo capacity and indiscriminately decapitates them even though the SCAR is more powerful.

Same goes for Demoman/Sharpshooter/Medic. M79 for weak groups, 6 round launcher for big boys. 9mm/Handcannon for weak groups, Crossbow/M14EBR for tougher mobs (although M14 is pray and spray right now). Syringe and the Medic Gun are both on different cooldowns as far as the healing aspect is concerned, and a good medic can keep his team up all day swapping between them.

My point is: Give the berserker a situation to use the Axe or the Chainsaw (don't really care about the machete, I think it should be replaced with a sledgehammer. Mentioned it elsewhere in other posts as well), because right now you're basically limited to the katana.

 

[Smilomaniac]

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/search.php?searchid=420651[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/search.php?searchid=420651[/URL]

Somewhere in those posts.

Mainly, I feel that it's just unnecessary. I think it would basically delay the inevitable (since you'd be forced to use a knife/machete while using it) and end up being a waste of quid. If any major change needs to happen to the berserker, it should be to break up the monotony of the existing weapons rather than adding new ones.

When it all boils down: Nobody uses the machete or the fireaxe. Berserker is the only perk besides firebug where you're basically inclined to skip over all the other options along the way.

Other than giving others the money, how is it a waste?
You're not delaying things, it's supposed to be used on later waves, staving off immediate threats while people in the back gun down whatever is pressing the group. Which is usually an FP that rushes in while you're pressed by an unlycky zerg.

It's adding a viable tactic to something the berserker is having specific problems with, as well as presenting utility to the group.

 

[Jelan]

@IanTheM1

Introducing the Riot Shield.

I think a Riot Shield+Nightstick combo should be made a new weapon. The stick would have damage somewhere between the axe and the machete (with a slower-stronger alt-fire), but with the AIM button you could raise the shield and absorb about 10% damage/level. So, a zerker could absorb up to 85% damage, while dealing decent damage. Would be awesome

 

[robdude19]

No riot shields

No riot shields

Other than giving others the money, how is it a waste?
You're not delaying things, it's supposed to be used on later waves, staving off immediate threats while people in the back gun down whatever is pressing the group. Which is usually an FP that rushes in while you're pressed by an unlycky zerg.

It's adding a viable tactic to something the berserker is having specific problems with, as well as presenting utility to the group.

I don't think halting raging FPs should ever be a painless procedure. Aside from killing them, the safest way to stop a FP is to take a hit with medic armor, which still involves risk and should only be done a couple times in emergencies before the armor wears off. The riot shield would be OP against raging scrakes and FPs, practically useless against everything else (better to have a katana and kill stuff in front of you, otherwise the mob could surround you anyway).

 

[Nanostrike]

@IanTheM1

Interesting read, nice insight.



I think that this is what makes a berserker interesting to play, knowing when to get the hell out of there and let the others deal with it.

But I have an idea on how to deal with this.

Introducing the Riot Shield.

Basicly it's a 100-200 Hitpoint shield that you take out in order to block things. Only it, takes damage, not you. On a side note you could wield a machete or knife(as long as it's one-handed) weapon at the same time.
So when the Fleshpounder comes running, you whip out the shield and stand firm until the others take it down, enabling you to stand there at least, and keeping the pounder at bay from the others.

Alt fire makes you block with the shield, and main fire is swinging or stabbing with the knife/machete. It's made of plexi-glass obviously so you can see through.

I'd like to add three things about this:

1) Even if you have the shield, there's zero guarantee that a FP will choose you to target. And if it doesn't choose you, the shield forcing you to use a crap weapon will make itself near useless.

2) 100 or even 200 HP is NOTHING on Hard and up. Nothing. An FP does over 100 damage on a raged hit. A Gorefast does upwards of 60 damage. And the Scrake's is probably somewhere around the 80-damage ballpark too. Basically, a 200 HP shield would absorb MAYBE 3 good hits before shattering and making you feel depressed that you wasted money on it...

3) Sirens/Husks would probably be able to bypass it and, if it's coded to only block frontal hits like it should be, it'd be near useless when you're taking hits from all sides (Crawlers, Stalkers, ect).

I don't see it as being anything but a novelty that'd do nothing to remedy the zerker's overall situation.