i personally feel that aim zoom should be implemented into ROOST, as it will be in HoS because there are so many legitimate reasons for it and it wouldn't be to hard to implement.
Aim zoom.
- Thread starter Hipocracy
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1. I highly doubt RO OST will get any updates which changes the game mechanics.
2. There is no legitimate reason for it. If you focus something it doesn
2. There is no legitimate reason for it. If you focus something it doesn
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By having ironsight zoom, Arma fails to be a realistic game. Because that's not realistic.
Tripwire doesn't need to implement it. What you need to implement on the otherhand, are these:
1. Get used to it.
2. Train a better spotting sight for enemies.
3. Get a bigger monitor.
Problem solved, at the expense of you, and not the rest of the community. Because I actually do enjoy not having the zoom. It makes calculating bulletdrop and aiming ahead of a moving object that much more challenging and enjoyable.
I would go along the line with Craig's idea and suggest maybe the ability to pick up nades.
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The issue is whether you want a game that looks realistic, or plays realistically -- RO offers a nice treatment to aesthetic realism, but yields a lot of functional realism as far as how the game is played due to the fact it offers no mechanics for managing the limits of pixel resolution. It's obvious many on these fourms don't understand the issue, or its consequences -- here's an edited recitation that explains the design considersations in more detail:
Pixel Resolution & View Distance
Display pixel resolution severely curtails View Distance in games (not to be confused with 'Draw-Distance'); even at higher end of practical resolutions like 2560*1600 it is not possible identify a friendly player at even a fraction of the distance you can in the real world; in fact you can't even see and identify a 'man target' as the player models will appear a pixelated blob that can be anything at the same distance you could easily identify a person as someone you actually knew, what they were wearing and even carrying in the real world.
That most Gamers are playing at substantially lower resolutions then 2560*1600, lowers the bar further; if the Steam Hardware Survey is any indication 1280*1024 is the average resolution, or mean of the bell-curve with more then half of all Gamers on Steam playing at or below the resolution of 1280*1024. Obviously the Player with the higher resolution display has a considerable advantage, ie. he can see and or IFF the Player with the lower resolution display before he is seen...
Aim-FOV/Zoom & IFF
The only known means to resolving this to where a game or simulator can offer realistic view distance, range of engagement, and concomitant ranged fire-maneuver tactics is to offer some amount of change in FOV when a weapon is 'aimed', aka Aim-FOV/Zoom, or Aim-Zoom. In fact all infantry combat simulators do exactly this, as do nearly all serious tactical realism games, and even many action/arcade realism games.
While Aim-Zoom may not be as aesthetically realistic, the consequences of playing with forced -1.75 (or less) Diopter Myopia is far less realistic -- completely obviates realistic tactical maneuver and ranged firearms engagement which obviously in the case of simulators for tactical training would be a plate of baked fail...
Aim-Zoom was a part of Red Orchestra during most of its life as a Mod for Unreal Tournament 2003/4, and in the view of many worked and played very well. There were several server mutators and client side scripts that offered Aim-Zoom as an option -- the outcome where it was used was dramatically lower friendly-fire kills then what we see in RO and its mods today, realistic ranged combat was not only possible but practical, and the Mod sustained its Audience on a much broader range of maps then we've seen during the retail life of Red Orchestra...
Most Developers of serious tactical realism games and consumer simulators recognize the issue and also incorporate Aim-Zoom; from Rogue Spear, the Rainbow Six games, Ghost Recon, GRAW, Armed Assault, America's Army, Operation Flashpoint to the Brothers In Arms series -- even more arcade realism games like Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor incorporate Aim-Zoom to allow for more realistic ranged combat and tactics, and for a reduction in friendly fire kills...
Aesthetic Realism Vs. Functional Realism
Aesthetic Realism caters to making a game look, and/or feel as realistic as possible within the constraints of Engine and Artistic capability; this appears to be the reason that FOV scripting/mutator capability was removed from the commercial version of the game, i.e. some (or more specifically someone) felt it 'looked' unrealistic...
Functional Realism is more concerned with how a game or simulator 'plays' and solves issues of emulated realism like: are realistic tactics not only possible but do they consistently prevail, are weapons not only able to be employed realistically but are they practical used that way, and are they effective used as they would be used in the real world... In both cases, for Red Orchestra sans realistic View Distance via Aim-Zoom, the answer is 'not as much as was the case when you could see further', and 'no where near as much as some other games'...
Of course anyone wanting more realistic view distance in Red Orchestra and a substantial advantage can purchase the highest resolution display money can buy, and the expensive PC hardware required to drive it; but that's not a practical solution for everyone -- and the issues of compromised functional realism, balance, and fairness remain.
Modern game engines now easily allow for panamorphic, ananmorphic, linear, spherical and progressive zoom distortions that can be exploited for a much more subtle 'Zoom' effect that does not move at the boarders of the screen, or realistically exploits the 'pin hole' camera effect of aperture sights...
Game-Play
View-Distance has a substantial impact and consequence on how games are played, the vast majority of Red Orchestra: Ostfront '41-45 engagements, tactics employed, and kills occur at pistol ammunition range -- relegating all the draw distance and LSS render capability of the game to little more then superficial aesthetic eye-candy, and combat to a close range parody of real ranged fire-maneuver combat.
Another significant consequence for a game like Red Orchestra where the effective range of the weapons exceeds the Players ability to see to realistic scale distance; is a ridiculous number of friendly kills due to the inability to IFF (identify friend or foe)... In three hours of playing the Darkest Hour Mod for Red Orchestra I made an attempt to record total friendly-fire and enemy kills of all Players -- the results were conservative at over 40%, due to the fact that many unforgiven kills got counted as enemy kills.
This isn't just a questionable issue of game-play quality, it's also a good measure of how unrealistic IFF and view distance is effecting what may be an otherwise realistic game -- as even the most unskilled and poorly trained forces in WW II didn't have friendly-fire casualties anywhere approaching even half what you will typically see in a Red Orchestra game...
Even ignoring issues of functional realism, or realism in entire; there are the outstanding issues of game-play fairness; Players with higher resolution displays have a substantial advantage over a Player with a lower resolution -- and here even a small change in FOV Aim-Zom can markedly reduce the difference and bring things closer to balance.
Though the player with the higher resolution display will always maintain an advantage unless the effective range and accuracy of all weapons are nerfed to the effective range of sling-shots -- with Aim-FOV/Zoom all Players with high and low resolution displays will have IFF limits closer to the effective range of weapons with realistic metrics.
Summation
The facts are easy to measure, corroborate and speak for themselves... That Tripwire has decided to offer Aim-Zoom in the next Heroes of Stalingrad iteration of RO (just as it was in RO the Mod) should make their view on the issue pretty plain.
Obviously there are those that prefer aesthetic realism over functional realism, and many will prefer Red Orchestra 'as is', but, there is a substantial Audience that values more scale and functional realism, rather then less, and Aim-Zoom can not only take Red Orchestra a long ways in that direction, it solves other problems, and can easily be offered as a 'server-side option' that excludes no one, and gives everyone a choice in what they're looking for.
Red Orchestra and it's third party mods and maps offer a enormous volume of ranged combat maps where zoom would make a tremendous difference in realism, playability, and appeal -- and again that these maps stand idle and unplayed for years, while two or three urban/industrial maps are played exclusively, and this sort of thing was not the case when RO was a Mod and offered Aim-Zoom offers another compelling reson to allow it again.
I hopeTripwire will revisit Osfront 41-45 before Heroes Of Stalingrad ships with an update that offers an Aim-Zoom option and perhaps a few other minor changes to pave the way and Player expection for Heroes Of Stalingrad. Now more then ever with hundreds of thosands of man hours of work on large scale maps sitting idle for lack of play -- out of consideration of all the work invested it would be smart business practice to offer update that might get more Vets playing, get the old maps revisited, and give RO's game play a much needed bump of realism away from the speed-spam, one map play that currently prevails.
∆
Pixel Resolution & View Distance
Display pixel resolution severely curtails View Distance in games (not to be confused with 'Draw-Distance'); even at higher end of practical resolutions like 2560*1600 it is not possible identify a friendly player at even a fraction of the distance you can in the real world; in fact you can't even see and identify a 'man target' as the player models will appear a pixelated blob that can be anything at the same distance you could easily identify a person as someone you actually knew, what they were wearing and even carrying in the real world.
That most Gamers are playing at substantially lower resolutions then 2560*1600, lowers the bar further; if the Steam Hardware Survey is any indication 1280*1024 is the average resolution, or mean of the bell-curve with more then half of all Gamers on Steam playing at or below the resolution of 1280*1024. Obviously the Player with the higher resolution display has a considerable advantage, ie. he can see and or IFF the Player with the lower resolution display before he is seen...
Aim-FOV/Zoom & IFF
The only known means to resolving this to where a game or simulator can offer realistic view distance, range of engagement, and concomitant ranged fire-maneuver tactics is to offer some amount of change in FOV when a weapon is 'aimed', aka Aim-FOV/Zoom, or Aim-Zoom. In fact all infantry combat simulators do exactly this, as do nearly all serious tactical realism games, and even many action/arcade realism games.
While Aim-Zoom may not be as aesthetically realistic, the consequences of playing with forced -1.75 (or less) Diopter Myopia is far less realistic -- completely obviates realistic tactical maneuver and ranged firearms engagement which obviously in the case of simulators for tactical training would be a plate of baked fail...
Aim-Zoom was a part of Red Orchestra during most of its life as a Mod for Unreal Tournament 2003/4, and in the view of many worked and played very well. There were several server mutators and client side scripts that offered Aim-Zoom as an option -- the outcome where it was used was dramatically lower friendly-fire kills then what we see in RO and its mods today, realistic ranged combat was not only possible but practical, and the Mod sustained its Audience on a much broader range of maps then we've seen during the retail life of Red Orchestra...
Most Developers of serious tactical realism games and consumer simulators recognize the issue and also incorporate Aim-Zoom; from Rogue Spear, the Rainbow Six games, Ghost Recon, GRAW, Armed Assault, America's Army, Operation Flashpoint to the Brothers In Arms series -- even more arcade realism games like Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor incorporate Aim-Zoom to allow for more realistic ranged combat and tactics, and for a reduction in friendly fire kills...
Aesthetic Realism Vs. Functional Realism
Aesthetic Realism caters to making a game look, and/or feel as realistic as possible within the constraints of Engine and Artistic capability; this appears to be the reason that FOV scripting/mutator capability was removed from the commercial version of the game, i.e. some (or more specifically someone) felt it 'looked' unrealistic...
Functional Realism is more concerned with how a game or simulator 'plays' and solves issues of emulated realism like: are realistic tactics not only possible but do they consistently prevail, are weapons not only able to be employed realistically but are they practical used that way, and are they effective used as they would be used in the real world... In both cases, for Red Orchestra sans realistic View Distance via Aim-Zoom, the answer is 'not as much as was the case when you could see further', and 'no where near as much as some other games'...
Of course anyone wanting more realistic view distance in Red Orchestra and a substantial advantage can purchase the highest resolution display money can buy, and the expensive PC hardware required to drive it; but that's not a practical solution for everyone -- and the issues of compromised functional realism, balance, and fairness remain.
Modern game engines now easily allow for panamorphic, ananmorphic, linear, spherical and progressive zoom distortions that can be exploited for a much more subtle 'Zoom' effect that does not move at the boarders of the screen, or realistically exploits the 'pin hole' camera effect of aperture sights...
Game-Play
View-Distance has a substantial impact and consequence on how games are played, the vast majority of Red Orchestra: Ostfront '41-45 engagements, tactics employed, and kills occur at pistol ammunition range -- relegating all the draw distance and LSS render capability of the game to little more then superficial aesthetic eye-candy, and combat to a close range parody of real ranged fire-maneuver combat.
Another significant consequence for a game like Red Orchestra where the effective range of the weapons exceeds the Players ability to see to realistic scale distance; is a ridiculous number of friendly kills due to the inability to IFF (identify friend or foe)... In three hours of playing the Darkest Hour Mod for Red Orchestra I made an attempt to record total friendly-fire and enemy kills of all Players -- the results were conservative at over 40%, due to the fact that many unforgiven kills got counted as enemy kills.
This isn't just a questionable issue of game-play quality, it's also a good measure of how unrealistic IFF and view distance is effecting what may be an otherwise realistic game -- as even the most unskilled and poorly trained forces in WW II didn't have friendly-fire casualties anywhere approaching even half what you will typically see in a Red Orchestra game...
Even ignoring issues of functional realism, or realism in entire; there are the outstanding issues of game-play fairness; Players with higher resolution displays have a substantial advantage over a Player with a lower resolution -- and here even a small change in FOV Aim-Zom can markedly reduce the difference and bring things closer to balance.
Though the player with the higher resolution display will always maintain an advantage unless the effective range and accuracy of all weapons are nerfed to the effective range of sling-shots -- with Aim-FOV/Zoom all Players with high and low resolution displays will have IFF limits closer to the effective range of weapons with realistic metrics.
Summation
The facts are easy to measure, corroborate and speak for themselves... That Tripwire has decided to offer Aim-Zoom in the next Heroes of Stalingrad iteration of RO (just as it was in RO the Mod) should make their view on the issue pretty plain.
Obviously there are those that prefer aesthetic realism over functional realism, and many will prefer Red Orchestra 'as is', but, there is a substantial Audience that values more scale and functional realism, rather then less, and Aim-Zoom can not only take Red Orchestra a long ways in that direction, it solves other problems, and can easily be offered as a 'server-side option' that excludes no one, and gives everyone a choice in what they're looking for.
Red Orchestra and it's third party mods and maps offer a enormous volume of ranged combat maps where zoom would make a tremendous difference in realism, playability, and appeal -- and again that these maps stand idle and unplayed for years, while two or three urban/industrial maps are played exclusively, and this sort of thing was not the case when RO was a Mod and offered Aim-Zoom offers another compelling reson to allow it again.
I hopeTripwire will revisit Osfront 41-45 before Heroes Of Stalingrad ships with an update that offers an Aim-Zoom option and perhaps a few other minor changes to pave the way and Player expection for Heroes Of Stalingrad. Now more then ever with hundreds of thosands of man hours of work on large scale maps sitting idle for lack of play -- out of consideration of all the work invested it would be smart business practice to offer update that might get more Vets playing, get the old maps revisited, and give RO's game play a much needed bump of realism away from the speed-spam, one map play that currently prevails.
∆
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I would need citation on this article. I obviously don't have this "functionality" problem because during the course of play, you do realize that enemies will be approaching from a certain direction and very rarely find a friendly solider on that opposite end. Even if so, I can usually tell it's friendly because they would be facing the other direction either aiming or firing. It took me some time in the beginning to differentiate the germans from the soviets, but I think I can distinguish them fairly well even from a distance from the hue of the uniform. I run at 1280x1024 resolution and I rarely have any problem with this.
The friendly fire rate that was recorded by this author cannot be weighed heavily, since it was over a short-term (3 hours) and unspecified as to which server or the level of experience of the players.
All too often, critics are too eager to put down Red Orchestra without giving it a fair chance, so I wouldn't take 1 personal editorial to be the end all of discussion, especially backed by testimonials from gamers of unknown origin.
The friendly fire rate that was recorded by this author cannot be weighed heavily, since it was over a short-term (3 hours) and unspecified as to which server or the level of experience of the players.
All too often, critics are too eager to put down Red Orchestra without giving it a fair chance, so I wouldn't take 1 personal editorial to be the end all of discussion, especially backed by testimonials from gamers of unknown origin.
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I appreciate the argument that enemies are more difficult to pick out in a game than they would be at the equivelent distance in RL.
However that said I have never had a noticable problem hitting targets with IS in RO compared to any other game.
Phaps this is because the lack of IS zoom advantage is mitigated by an inherent trueness of shot combined with the more realistic mobility of your targets.
And when i do miss, it's simply because i've not aligned my shot precisly, as opposed to a reason i can put down to to lack of zoom, indeed i seem to have more misses in the mid ranges where targets are moving relatively quicker.
So in conclusion I would not like to see an aim zoom added to RO ( moot anyway cos it's not gonna happen) and would like to see this only as an option in HoS
However that said I have never had a noticable problem hitting targets with IS in RO compared to any other game.
Phaps this is because the lack of IS zoom advantage is mitigated by an inherent trueness of shot combined with the more realistic mobility of your targets.
And when i do miss, it's simply because i've not aligned my shot precisly, as opposed to a reason i can put down to to lack of zoom, indeed i seem to have more misses in the mid ranges where targets are moving relatively quicker.
So in conclusion I would not like to see an aim zoom added to RO ( moot anyway cos it's not gonna happen) and would like to see this only as an option in HoS
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What exactly do you 'need' cited?
Your perception of a lack of some kind of 'problems' is not the point or center of discussion. The point is you can not even see a player to engage him, at all, at a fraction of the distance you could in the real world. You may enjoy RO's pistol ammunition range game-play, but it's not even on the map with regard to realistic fire maneuver tactics prevailing (or even being possible), in fact RO is less realistic in many regards then Unreal Tournament, or Quake III Arena with respect to ranged combat tactics.
'This Author' has played RO since it was a Mod in early alpha, 'this Author' was on the RO mod team, 'this Author' is confident that his conservative statistics repore an experience that fairly representative RO's game-play.
Then know my 'origin' and my work on combat simulators...
Your appreciation must be rather superficial, as it's not a matter of 'difficulty', but impossibility -- you can not even see a player at a fraction of the distance you would engage him in the real world -- period.
The discussion is not about your difficulty in hitting targets...
A far more likely and credible explination for your ease in making shots is the fact that the vast majority of the engagements in RO are well inside pistol ammunition range if not point-blank contacts.
I'm sure your aesthetic preferences will be given intense and due notice by all concerned, but I doubt you have the authority to decide what is 'not gonna happen'... The fact that Aim-Zoom will be a feature of the next version of RO, and that there is still an active Ideas & Suggestions forum clearly suggests the door is open.
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it puzzles me that a large amount of people prefer pseudo-realism over functional realism, people still use this " well i do fine without it " " its unrealistic when you aim down sights things don't become magically realistic in real life, idiot " attitude. ever ask your self whats played more CQB infantry battles or ones that are more long range? ever ask yourself why there is a 24/7 Danzig server that is the top US server? because bot action rifles don't have the functionality in ROOST that they do IRL. why? NO AIM ZOOM, if there was aim zoom so many things that are frustrating could be remedied and ROOST would come out overall as a better game, but that is becoming is nearly impossible because of the insane attitude that immersion > realism attitude on these forums.
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are you talking about the extremely tiny bit of aim zoom that happens when you aim down sights in CoD? because that is not what i am suggesting, i am suggesting allot more zoom than that so we can actually play the game without being confined to CQB or tank battles.
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Will some mod please sticky the threads suggesting, iron sights zoom, including the King Tiger, removing mg tracers, delay exiting from tanks, and ways every one can get a go with the sniper threads so that we don't have to have the same discussion every two months?
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How about an 'OPTION' so that you can play Red Orchestra: Counter-Stirke, the way you like it; and those of us looking for more relistic game-play on LSS maps can have what we had when RO was a Mod...
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I need citations of basically everything you've written.
Well if you were part of the mod team, then you only have your self to blame. You worked the mod, and didn't implement the aim zoom, and I can only assume from that point you left the mod team because of that.
What do you consider 'fraction' of distance? Because given time and careful observation, I can pick out movement farely far ahead (sniper distance) and it becomes not a matter of impossibility, but rather getting off the aim to hit that target.
And this isn't real world. You are in a given environment to play realistically to that environment, not functionally. Period. That's the whole point of it.
Just becaus you worked on the mod, and have experience on combat simulators or whatnot doesn't mean your theories are end-all-word-of-gold. Just because you can't spot enemies from distance or can't appreciate the lack of functionality of a feature, that does not mean other people can't either. Don't go badgering people for what they appreciate and branding it superficial. If you want real action, play paintball or join the army.
"Realistic game-play" that in itself is flawed. Game plays are never realistic. Only game setting may emulate that.
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I say no to this into RO Ost because of the maps. They were made with no zoom accounted, save for some maps. Giving aim zoom into normal RO Ost maps is bound to break the gameplay.
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Then a little work on your English literacy skills and a trip to the library will get you exactly what you 'need'...
Nope.
It's not about what I or anyone for that matter 'considers' a fraction of real world vis distance; it's a matter of empirical mathematical fact. At a display resolution of 1280*1024 (the statistical mean of Players on Steam), depending on render settings (which vary widely), you can't see a man-target to ~ 1/5 the distance you could in the real world before he becomes a unidentifiable, pixelated blob. It's not a function of your personal perception, what ever skills you believe you have; it's a limitation of pixelation, period.
Then you must have a display with a horizontal resolution of over 5,000 pixels, or, you don't know how to measure distances in games, and/or your full of s*it as a baby turkey -- considering the nature of your remarks the last two seem a very reasonalbe bet...
Did you need help figuring that out, or did you do it all on your own?
No... YouTube - Samuel Jackson English Mo Fo
Good gawd, are you really that ignorant and lazy? Visit the Developer Diaries, where the issue is acknowledged and it's clearly stated Aim-Zoom will be a feature in the next iteration of RO, and the reasons why. What's being discussed is not my perception, but a technical fact, and one you clearly don't understand, and aren't willing to make an honest effort to understand...
How old are you?
It would help your communication and cognitive skills enormously if you were to discover the use of a dictionary...
Well, in fact some of the maps in RO:OST were designed back when RO was a mod and had Aim-Zoom; moreover most Level Designers work on much higher resolution displays then the statistical mean reported on the Steam Hardware Survey and that most Players use which obviates such an objection.
What I don't understand is why all the objection, hysteria and histrionics when: (1) pixelation view distance is a fact, and limitation that has been acknowledged by Developers in the industry for nearly a decade (2) the issue is far greater now then it's ever been due to the larger disparity of display resolutions in the channel (3) this was previously a feature in Red Orchestra, (4) it will be a feature in the next iteration of Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad, (5) I and others are only suggesting the feature be re-enabled in RO:OST as an option...
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