The State of Balance in Killing Floor
- Thread starter Hedon
- Start date
I think support is fine too. I think the rest of the classes are too weak and need some boosts, however small the boosts may be. Like Sharpshooter...even if you don't increase the damage, give 'em some **** ammo bonuses so they don't run out every single wave in Hard!
Upvote
0
Support is not really that overpowered.
Obviously most of the people in this thread have not played Suicidal. Supports are NEEDED in suicidal due to every other class blowing a left nut in damage, and also usefullness.
Sharpshooter:
Sharpshooter lv4 does not even kill a bloat in one headshot with lever rifle on Suicidal, this needs to be fixed, a Sharpshooter hitting anything the head with a lever rifle short of the bigger mobs should kill it in one hit by level 5. Hence 'SHARPSHOOTER' they should be awarded for having good aim, instead of having their kills kill-stolen due to them not even killing the thing in one hit.
On top of this, Sharpshooters are basically useless. They serve no obvious use in team or solo. All of their kills get stolen easily between just the support and commando, commando wipes all smaller stuff with a fully automatic gun while support can just run up close and unload on the bigger stuff. SS just weakens higher mobs but that's it, they hardly serve a significant use. They need better perks and atm I can't think of anything useful aside from allowing their headshot bonus to be bumped WAY up so that they can kill scrakes/fleshpounds in a matter of a few headshots. (Since their crossbow only gets 40 shots anyways.)
Commandos:
Commando's need a damage boost, these guys should be the main weapon against the abundence of smaller mobs. They should kill crawlers, clots, and gorefasts in a matter of shots at lv5 while on Suicidal. Increase their damage for the love of god. Also I fully agree making a LAW boost part of their perk, to make that their teir 2 weapon. (SS get Xbow, Support Hunting Shotgun, Beserk Chainsaw, ect ect.)
Medic:
Medics deserve a boost in weapons somehow, but a small one, and with a small gun, perfect choice? Pistols.
I believe a perk should give pistol bonus, and Medic's seem perfect. That way they can't go rambo and kill stuff on their own instead of heal, but at least if they're getting attacked they can kill it. I'm not saying give them 50% damage bonus, but even a 15-20% bonus would be lovely, otherwise (or even with no pistol bonus) the class is amazing.
Firebug:
Firebugs are a weird class. I would not normally choose them, and they are a rare class played. I believe we can fix that by giving them a job. What job? De-buffing.
I'm not sure if they already do this, but one thing they should be able to do is after a target is 'scorched' and they're all burnt to a crisp, they should take more damage from weapons. Firebug could also use a SMALL ammo boost, like two canisters more.
What also to do?
Grenades. Take the grenade boosts and capacity increases off Supports, slap them on Firebug and make sure it's firey napalm grenade goodness gets that debuffing as well.
This will make the firebug desireable in a team.
Now, that is what I believe needs to be done to make every class desirable or funner to play.
I STRONGLY advise you guys to play Suicidal before you say any more about Support nerfing.
I have a lv5 support, two friends of mine are lv4 commando/sharpshooter and one friend is a lv5 medic and we played Suicidal, we got reamed. I could barely kill stuff at a fast pace, and we knew what we were doing, Normal and hard is basically easy for our group, yet Suicidal we still got reamed due to Commando and sharpshooter unable to keep up with Support and dying while I was barely hanging on. The Medic did great to heal us but got attacked by 3 gorefasts and died being unable to kill them off him and us busy holding off Fleshpounders that just would not die.
Obviously most of the people in this thread have not played Suicidal. Supports are NEEDED in suicidal due to every other class blowing a left nut in damage, and also usefullness.
Sharpshooter:
Sharpshooter lv4 does not even kill a bloat in one headshot with lever rifle on Suicidal, this needs to be fixed, a Sharpshooter hitting anything the head with a lever rifle short of the bigger mobs should kill it in one hit by level 5. Hence 'SHARPSHOOTER' they should be awarded for having good aim, instead of having their kills kill-stolen due to them not even killing the thing in one hit.
On top of this, Sharpshooters are basically useless. They serve no obvious use in team or solo. All of their kills get stolen easily between just the support and commando, commando wipes all smaller stuff with a fully automatic gun while support can just run up close and unload on the bigger stuff. SS just weakens higher mobs but that's it, they hardly serve a significant use. They need better perks and atm I can't think of anything useful aside from allowing their headshot bonus to be bumped WAY up so that they can kill scrakes/fleshpounds in a matter of a few headshots. (Since their crossbow only gets 40 shots anyways.)
Commandos:
Commando's need a damage boost, these guys should be the main weapon against the abundence of smaller mobs. They should kill crawlers, clots, and gorefasts in a matter of shots at lv5 while on Suicidal. Increase their damage for the love of god. Also I fully agree making a LAW boost part of their perk, to make that their teir 2 weapon. (SS get Xbow, Support Hunting Shotgun, Beserk Chainsaw, ect ect.)
Medic:
Medics deserve a boost in weapons somehow, but a small one, and with a small gun, perfect choice? Pistols.
I believe a perk should give pistol bonus, and Medic's seem perfect. That way they can't go rambo and kill stuff on their own instead of heal, but at least if they're getting attacked they can kill it. I'm not saying give them 50% damage bonus, but even a 15-20% bonus would be lovely, otherwise (or even with no pistol bonus) the class is amazing.
Firebug:
Firebugs are a weird class. I would not normally choose them, and they are a rare class played. I believe we can fix that by giving them a job. What job? De-buffing.
I'm not sure if they already do this, but one thing they should be able to do is after a target is 'scorched' and they're all burnt to a crisp, they should take more damage from weapons. Firebug could also use a SMALL ammo boost, like two canisters more.
What also to do?
Grenades. Take the grenade boosts and capacity increases off Supports, slap them on Firebug and make sure it's firey napalm grenade goodness gets that debuffing as well.
This will make the firebug desireable in a team.
Now, that is what I believe needs to be done to make every class desirable or funner to play.
I STRONGLY advise you guys to play Suicidal before you say any more about Support nerfing.
I have a lv5 support, two friends of mine are lv4 commando/sharpshooter and one friend is a lv5 medic and we played Suicidal, we got reamed. I could barely kill stuff at a fast pace, and we knew what we were doing, Normal and hard is basically easy for our group, yet Suicidal we still got reamed due to Commando and sharpshooter unable to keep up with Support and dying while I was barely hanging on. The Medic did great to heal us but got attacked by 3 gorefasts and died being unable to kill them off him and us busy holding off Fleshpounders that just would not die.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I honestly couldn't give a toss if the health bar thing stays or goes. Frankly i find it more useful that it shows the location of Crawlers alot more easily if they're by your ankles or in vents. The actual healthbar is worthless as a perk buff over Supports numerous and far more valuable buffs. You can't shoot the big guys or you burn through ammo in no time.
Any class (bar Zerker) can play anti-Crawler to keep the Zerkers safe. The difference is Commando's do it because they suck at the big things. The only enemy he gets any real benefits towards are Stalkers and they can generally be seen anyway depending on the map and are so few and far between that levelling the perk takes forever.
Whine about how 'zomg its not PvP how can it be unbalanced' all you want, that comment got old years ago. Commando needs more buffs, most importantly an increase in ammo capacity. Support not only gets an increase in carry capacity, allowing him to take Shotgun, Hunting Shotgun and Dual Handcannons at lvl5, he also gets more ammo!
As for the Firebug... i was playing it again yesterday on Solo and it really needs an increase in its DoT. Either you fire a quick burst at some of the slightly tougher enemies and have them continue on, probably forcing another teammate to finish the job before they burn to death, or you have to use up more ammo than is necessary for a gun that has very little in the first place and can burn (ha) through an entire tank in seconds. That or its rate of consumption could be reduced. Same ammo, lasts longer, something a bit more original.
Any class (bar Zerker) can play anti-Crawler to keep the Zerkers safe. The difference is Commando's do it because they suck at the big things. The only enemy he gets any real benefits towards are Stalkers and they can generally be seen anyway depending on the map and are so few and far between that levelling the perk takes forever.
Whine about how 'zomg its not PvP how can it be unbalanced' all you want, that comment got old years ago. Commando needs more buffs, most importantly an increase in ammo capacity. Support not only gets an increase in carry capacity, allowing him to take Shotgun, Hunting Shotgun and Dual Handcannons at lvl5, he also gets more ammo!
As for the Firebug... i was playing it again yesterday on Solo and it really needs an increase in its DoT. Either you fire a quick burst at some of the slightly tougher enemies and have them continue on, probably forcing another teammate to finish the job before they burn to death, or you have to use up more ammo than is necessary for a gun that has very little in the first place and can burn (ha) through an entire tank in seconds. That or its rate of consumption could be reduced. Same ammo, lasts longer, something a bit more original.
Upvote
0
Yeah, support is way overpowered. Assault takes WAY too long to level. Berserker might actually be a little bit overpowered, but is such a niche roll that it almost has to be. I don't agree with the assertion that firebugs are underpowered though.
Fire Bug isn't weak at all, people just don't use it right. Firebugs will kill clots, crawlers, sirens, and bloats easily at range. And by this--I mean so easily that they're practically not in the game anymore. The only things that give them problems are gorefasts, which can rush to the firebug before they burn to death (you can spray them to kill them, but it wastes precious ammo); Scrakes in smaller areas; and Fleshpounds (simply too slow). If you add in basically any other class with a gun, Firebugs can hold most areas pretty easily. Even if stuff does get close enough, the flamer and even GRENADES don't damage the firebug at level 5.
They could even out Support by DRASTICALLY cutting down on its ammo, and giving its grenade bonuses to Assault. In exchange, make it more effective with the LAW, and maybe give it a mine or the option to use grenades as booby-traps. According to its name, support shouldn't be a front-line fighter, it should be helping out when needed; such as against scrakes, fleshpounds, and large groups of enemies. The huge amount of ammo right now allows it to be a front-line fighter. If the support class had to save its ammo to deal with the major threats, I think it would balance it out quite a bit. Giving Assault grenade benefits would make them more effective in the front line.
Fire Bug isn't weak at all, people just don't use it right. Firebugs will kill clots, crawlers, sirens, and bloats easily at range. And by this--I mean so easily that they're practically not in the game anymore. The only things that give them problems are gorefasts, which can rush to the firebug before they burn to death (you can spray them to kill them, but it wastes precious ammo); Scrakes in smaller areas; and Fleshpounds (simply too slow). If you add in basically any other class with a gun, Firebugs can hold most areas pretty easily. Even if stuff does get close enough, the flamer and even GRENADES don't damage the firebug at level 5.
They could even out Support by DRASTICALLY cutting down on its ammo, and giving its grenade bonuses to Assault. In exchange, make it more effective with the LAW, and maybe give it a mine or the option to use grenades as booby-traps. According to its name, support shouldn't be a front-line fighter, it should be helping out when needed; such as against scrakes, fleshpounds, and large groups of enemies. The huge amount of ammo right now allows it to be a front-line fighter. If the support class had to save its ammo to deal with the major threats, I think it would balance it out quite a bit. Giving Assault grenade benefits would make them more effective in the front line.
Upvote
0
It's weird, the Commando class in the mod was nowhere near as underpowered as it is now. In the mod, the Commando was quite efficient at destroying crowds of enemies and (if you aimed for the head) could hold their own against the scrakes and, to a certain extent, fleshpounders. Here, the Commando is insanely hard to level and doesn't stand a chance against tougher enemies, also his weapon is heavily outclassed by other weapons.
But anyway, I agree with the topic creator on all his points, especially the Commando and how hard he is to level up.
But anyway, I agree with the topic creator on all his points, especially the Commando and how hard he is to level up.
Upvote
0
I've played Suicidal. I find support to be overpowered. Especially on things LOWER than Suicidal. Why would you bother being any other class? Let's take Hard for example. Sharpshooter? Why bother when Support has stupidly long range, and takes out multiple enemies per shot? Berserker? Why bother when Support holds chokepoints and kills Scrakes almost as fast, and doesn't have the same problem with Crawlers? Commando? Why bother playing that class in the first place? Firebug? Why bother when Support does the same AoE that you do and doesn't have problems dispatching tougher opponents without wasting ammo?
Upvote
0
Because a shotgun for all its oomph still can't out-badass a CHAINSAW
And because nothing can match the feeling of going toe-to-toe with a 12 foot pissed off killing machine and ripping its head off. It'd be like a tiny 90 pound schoolgirl taking on an Arnold terminator in a fist fight and winning. A decked out SAS commando could do it 100 times easier, but you'd still be like "holy **** that's awesome!" and even the commando would be scratching his head going "WTF just happened???"
Upvote
0
I can answer all of those(for suicidal) by saying that its a TEAM game, and as a TEAM you dont want 6 supports. We're going through suicidal maps with a mix of 1 firebug 2 support(1 of which switches zerker often) 1 commando 1 medic and 1 sharpshooter.
The sharpshooter in a game on Manor earlier got 700 kills at level 4 while the support who sat next to him the whole game, with level 5, doing equal amounts of combat got around 450-500. Firebug followed behind, with commando behind that, and me on 2nd support sitting at the back killing any rear spawns coming 5th on kills while welding for 30mins. I dont honestly think support is overpowered on suicidal (especially since the knockback removal on the hunting rifle), but I do think it is almost neccesary to have at least 1(same as a firebug when it comes to patriarch). For the same reason a firebug is almost essential for downing a patriarch(keeping it visible) a commando is useful even if for a call on vent if the fire wears off so we can pick up on him fast before he 1 shots someone.
If this were a solo or pvp game I would agree and say support should be brought in line, but since it isn't, why? All it will do is make an already hard game, harder. If we're planning on balancing around beginner-normal, please let us choose which balance we want to run so we can keep playing suicidal. Majority of players may play on lower difficulty, but that doesn't mean thats all there is.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This is all very, very true. Tried Suicidal today. No, we weren't newbies, as everyone there had played a good bit and all were at least level 4 in their jobs, most at level 5! Supports were the only ones able to scratch anything, especially larger mobs.
The Sharpshooters would get swamped easily, as headshots don't kill ANYTHING anymore. The piss-poor damage they do on non-headshot hits made 'em get killed easily by a few Gorefasts or Crawlers that would swarm them. And when they didn't get rushed, they ran out of ammo, as it's nowhere near the 'one shot, one kill' that it needs to be for them to work.
Berzerkers were usually pecked to death by Crawlers and Stalkers. Sirens were a nightmare for 'em too, as they can take a LOT of punishment from the pitiful Pistols and slightly less pitiful Handcannons most 'Zerkers carry, and getting close to them on Suicidal is, well...suicidal...
Firebugs ran out of ammo crazily fast (And they were being VERY careful with the ammo usage too!). Enemies also usually didn't die to fire before they were able to close on the Firebat and do some serious harm. The flame-nades were great, though. The biggest problem with them aside from the ridiculously small amount of ammo, was lack of kills (Teammates usually kill on-fire enemies before they burn to death), and how slow the kills actually came in.
Medics were good. Damage was piss poor and they had to focus mostly on healing others. A lot of the medics on our team usually took shotguns, handcannons, or the Bullpup and focused on Crawlers and Sirens. They can take a LOT of damage and live, though.
Commandos were stuck almost exclusively killing Stalkers and Crawlers. The damage of the bullpup on even Gorefasts and the like was terrible. Even picking off Sirens with it was very difficult, taking almost a full clip! Even crawlers take 3-5 rounds from a level 5 Commando...
The Supports were the only real damage dealers. Hunting shotguns shred heavier specs while piercing them and killing mobs. Normal shotguns kill everything else, also penetrating. Uber-grenades helped too. Not to mention the ammo capacity boost. The only reason our supports would die is simply because everyone on the team who wasn't a support was dead and they got flooded.
This shows that support is a perfectly fine class in suicidal...the other classes are just too weak to hold their own. It's not just in suicidal either. YOu can start to notice it even in Hard games...
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
Because a shotgun for all its oomph still can't out-badass a CHAINSAW
Going toe to toe with a Fleshpound on Easy can leave you hurting, never mind on Normal. On Hard/Suicidal you'd be lucky to survive. Of course its main advantage lies in being able to clear away the weaker foes without using ammo, thereby conserving it for the rest of the team. Course this only applies when people aren't out to level perks or get killcount as things will get shot at regardless of the fact a Berserker has it covered.
Aev, not everyone has 5 friends with Vent to play with who have maxed perks. If so i might play higher levels than Normal with the odd Hard game.
Upvote
0
I hate to compare it to WoW but this is one of the things that made me quit that game. I played high end arena back in 07-08, and like here people were complaining about balance while playing at low level - then the devs listened and kept adjusting the game to suit the needs of the players who whined the most, even though most of them were low end. Over time this kept going and eventually ruined the game for alot of people.
It's not exactly the same, but the principles are. The balance, in my opinion, is fine. It's a co-op game, intended for co-op, with difficulties that rely on a good team who work together; so why change the balance for solo players on pub servers?
Upvote
0
I think the Berserker is pretty well done, however I'd really like to see a slight increase in melee movement speed (which includes with the chainsaw) as on most difficulty modes with a fair amount of players you can't really do much against a Fleshpound. If you could run in, smack it over the head, and run out with enough speed to not be dead meat, I think it'd be good. At the moment you pretty much have to shoot it from a distance if you have any decent gun at all. Even being able to at least distract the Fleshpound while others attack it would be fine, but under any difficulty other than beginner they run faster than you.
Additional melee movement speed would also be rather handy for taking on Sirens, as running towards a pair of them on normal is pretty much suicide as you can't get close enough in time unless you ambush them.
As for Support, I agree that it really seems to outshine other classes.
Regarding Commando, I'm not really sure what it'd take to fix it but I feel that if it had C4 or claymores it'd be more useful.
Additional melee movement speed would also be rather handy for taking on Sirens, as running towards a pair of them on normal is pretty much suicide as you can't get close enough in time unless you ambush them.
As for Support, I agree that it really seems to outshine other classes.
Regarding Commando, I'm not really sure what it'd take to fix it but I feel that if it had C4 or claymores it'd be more useful.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Because the subtle difference is, and this is key, that the game is imbalanced at all levels of play, and especially so at low end. Hell, the difference between a random group of Pubs or a well knit group only compounds the situation. If we make a team of the best perks, turns out Commando aint on that list, and that more than likely, Support is on there thrice or more. Is it some sort of bizarre situation where 99.9% of the playerbase is donning some absurd piece of equipment and that the very fabric of the game has become so uniform and stale that without drastic change all sense of challenge or nonuniformity will be drained from the game?
Nah.
But that doesn't mean balance is fine.
Co-Op has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't matter if a game is a ten thousand man free for all where all you do is kill eachother, or if the game has you work together to achieve the same goal. There must be balance. It's poor game design to think otherwise.
Furthermore, how would bringing Support into line balance the game around solo people in pubs, and not Clans or whatever? Suddenly, your frontman's abilities are slightly reduced! Oh no! Our team is in dissarray, up is down, left is banana! All hope is lost! Let panic overcome rationality and let chaos run rampant! Oh waaaaait, it won't change much, except achieve balance.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
You see that only works for some things. This isn't PvE vs PvP or low level PvP vs high level PvP. It doesn't even come close to applying to this. Something that is underpowered to alot of people on Normal is still underpowered on Suicidal. Normal vs Suicidal is not low level vs high level. Especially when things have just been made more powerful, if anything a class that gets a stockpile of powerful shotguns with increased ammo supply is even more overpowered on a mode where every class but you runs out of ammo after a while.
The general consensus for pub players is Support is by far more powerful than the rest. Sure you get the odd Sharpshooter that probably turns his brightness up to max so he can see everything a mile away and gets alot of kills or Commando's that get 100s of kills because they shoot all the little things from distance. That doesn't mean a Support wielding a 9mm couldn't do it, then switch to a Shotty when they get too close. Line things up properly and you save yourself 4 shots.
Upvote
0
Other than possibly a few bug issues, I don't really see what the problem is. Balancing is a gimmick that I don't want to see in games, nor do I want to see them in these classes. It really is as simple as that. Some harder, some easier, so what?
Upvote
0
If your not willing to say why things shouldn't be balanced other than purely because "i don't want to" then your opinion isn't worth noting and you have no right to complain if/when things get changed.
Upvote
0
Oh really? Perhaps your opinion isn't worth noting....
Why on earth should things be balanced? Because it is a game and the big companies like to put balance in their games so it appeals to the kiddie masses? If things are/seem unbalanced, it adds variety to the game and makes the differences between classes seem all that more unique and worth experimenting between. Is that reason enough or should I go into more details?
Upvote
0
Oh really? Perhaps your opinion isn't worth noting....
Why on earth should things be balanced? Because it is a game and the big companies like to put balance in their games so it appeals to the kiddie masses? If things are/seem unbalanced, it adds variety to the game and makes the differences between classes seem all that more unique and worth experimenting between. Is that reason enough or should I go into more details?
Please go into more detail, i wanna see if your reasons can get more ridiculous. "i don't wanna" has morphed into "only children want balance". Minor imbalances aren't worth the effort, major imbalances take away from the game, not add to it.
Upvote
0