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What hidden messages are there in this concept art

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#21
TheSoviet9th said:
There is a scene where Russian soldiers, wave by wave, are rushing a German machine gun and getting gunned downed. I shouldn't have to say this, but that's NOT how Russian tactics work.
Click to expand...

So you decided to wipe out the fact, that it really worked that way.

Before war Stalin Executed 3 of 5 Marshals, 13 of 15 Army Commanders, 8 of 9 Admirals, 50 of 57 Highest Field Commanders and 154 of 186 Division Commanders. So when the war started there wasnt enough capable commanders.

Other facts is that many of Russian Soldier and Commander got his training on steppe. It doesnt matter what ever you do on steppe, because there isnt any cover. Thats why rushing is best tactic there, but not in cities.

Cant remeber anymore word by word what Finnish Marshal Mannerheim said about Soviet tactics, but it was something like that.

"Soviet Army is like a orchestra where all musicians are asynchronous. Its not rare that they first use infantry, when infantry is defeated, comes tanks absolutly too late and they end their attack by useing artillery"

Thats like useing all of those 3 unit elemets totally in wrong order.

How ever in same paragraph Mannerheim point out that Soviet soldier is very brave and obedient.

So dont get me wrong i would say soviet soldier was one of the bravest soldier of ww2. But losses like this

Winte War:
Finland - - Soviet
26,662 - - 87,506 dead
43,557 - - 188,671 wounded & contused

happens because of poor tactics and poor leading and because of rushing against mg's.

And that you cant wipe away, even if you want to.

Also dont know about insulting. Soviet usually rushing headup even on their own films YouTube - WW2 HAND-TO-HAND combat scene 1 ГУ-ГА
 
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#22
Also the entire frustrated effort was to keep the encirclement secret and moving. While the "encirclement" troops were pretty well equipped the frontline Soviet soldiers in Stalingrad were not! Death from starvation and disease(Typhus among others) were common as well as from battle. Not to mention that while the encirclement delt with weaker less organized German allies on the flanks while the Soviets in the city dealt with a well orgainized army with airsupport/superiority as well as very accurate artillery fire (they artilleried the Volga until the last days of Stalingrad) and a very capable Panzerwaffe all of which did much to get to Stalingrad and played a key role in taking critical postions until after the last offensive in Novermber of 1942 to take the city failed and later the encirclement was sealed.The lack of adaquate resupply in the winter months for the Germans eventually led to their surrender.
 
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#23
Other good example of Soviet tactics was when they decided to blind German strong hold. So they bring lot of anti-aircraft searchlights to front line. And turned them horizontally against german lines. How ever they were too impatient and decided also use heavy artillery. Heavy artillery rised lot of smokes on german lines and when they switched lights on, smoke reacted as a mirror and turned all that light back to Soviets and made them blind.

I dont maybe need to tell how that attack ended up.
 
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#24
Susi said:
Other good example of Soviet tactics was when they decided to blind German strong hold. So they bring lot of anti-aircraft searchlights to front line. And turned them horizontally against german lines. How ever they were too impatient and decided also use heavy artillery. Heavy artillery rised lot of smokes on german lines and when they switched lights on, smoke reacted as a mirror and turned all that light back to Soviets and made them blind.
Click to expand...

I saw a documentry on something like this which, General Georgi Zukov was responsible for in Berlin (1945): Apparently the Red army expected little German resistance when they attacked this perticular entrenched position in Berlin (I think it was on the central front) however when they attacked the Germans defened the positions with such ferocity (they were shooting from everywhere and with everything they had mortars, Soviet accounts say artillery, ect.) That the Soviets put up a smoke screen to in order to continue the advance however it was dark they had no way to see where they were going so they had spot-lights brought up to guide the way, which of course made a visable silhouette on the German side and led to a massacre of Soviet troops.
 
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#27
Susi said:
So you decided to wipe out the fact, that it really worked that way.

Before war Stalin Executed 3 of 5 Marshals, 13 of 15 Army Commanders, 8 of 9 Admirals, 50 of 57 Highest Field Commanders and 154 of 186 Division Commanders. So when the war started there wasnt enough capable commanders.

Other facts is that many of Russian Soldier and Commander got his training on steppe. It doesnt matter what ever you do on steppe, because there isnt any cover. Thats why rushing is best tactic there, but not in cities.

Cant remeber anymore word by word what Finnish Marshal Mannerheim said about Soviet tactics, but it was something like that.

"Soviet Army is like a orchestra where all musicians are asynchronous. Its not rare that they first use infantry, when infantry is defeated, comes tanks absolutly too late and they end their attack by useing artillery"

Thats like useing all of those 3 unit elemets totally in wrong order.

How ever in same paragraph Mannerheim point out that Soviet soldier is very brave and obedient.

So dont get me wrong i would say soviet soldier was one of the bravest soldier of ww2. But losses like this

Winte War:
Finland - - Soviet
26,662 - - 87,506 dead
43,557 - - 188,671 wounded & contused

happens because of poor tactics and poor leading and because of rushing against mg's.

And that you cant wipe away, even if you want to.

Also dont know about insulting. Soviet usually rushing headup even on their own films YouTube - WW2 HAND-TO-HAND combat scene 1 ГУ-ГА
Click to expand...

I don't think that film is meant as a documentary on tactics, Susi, and it is misleading to post it to support a rather spurious argument about Soviet tactics - the same way as the unarmed human wave of EATG is not to be considered in a serious discussion.

The Soviets learnt SOME lessons form their trouncing in the winter war (how could they not?) and their tactics in Stalingrad were far better suited for the close combat they faced.

It took the Germans quite a while to realise that their usual ways of defeating enemies - schwerpunkt, use of armour concentrations and heavy air support - were not going to help in Stalingrad.

I think that you could make a strong case that, with Chuikov's introduction of 10 to 12-man storm groups and insistence that the Germans never be allowed to put distance between themsleves and the enemy, the Soviets had extreme tactical advantage for a lot of the battle, which they needed as they had minimal supplies and were outnumbered for quite a while. This was in stark contrast to von Paulus' preference for textbook blitzkrieg which had served his army so well in France and on the steppes.

I have no doubt that, in the months between now and release, we will see very many ill-informed debates about the methods used by either side but I wanted to get in quick and nail the 'Soviets only ever used Zerg rush' arguments.
 
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#29
Susi said:
So you decided to wipe out the fact, that it really worked that way.
Click to expand...
Pretty bold statement, I might say.

Susi said:
Cant remeber anymore word by word what Finnish Marshal Mannerheim said about Soviet tactics, but it was something like that.

"Soviet Army is like a orchestra where all musicians are asynchronous. Its not rare that they first use infantry, when infantry is defeated, comes tanks absolutly too late and they end their attack by useing artillery"

Thats like useing all of those 3 unit elemets totally in wrong order.
Click to expand...

Yep. But that statement was about winter war. And in that sense it
 
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#30
I agree with Susi, the Germans just were out of ammo and only because of that they've lost the war.
Russians only used a human swarm tactic, because they didn't know anything other than that.
A usual day on the Eastern front for a German soldier? - Wake up, prepare your MG, polish your helmet, start firing at the rushing Soviets. After several hours, stop firing at the rushing Soviets, relocate, eat a sausage, begin firing at second wave, after the second wave is annihilated, polish your boots, start firind at 3rd wave, when you're done, go to sleep. Rinse and repeat.
I mean, that's how things were done at the Winter war, so it must be true for the World War II also.
 
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#31
TheSoviet9th said:
I hope you realize the Hollywood movie "Enemy at the Gate" is one of the biggest insults to the Soviet infantry during Stalingrad. There is a scene where Russian soldiers, wave by wave, are rushing a German machine gun and getting gunned downed. I shouldn't have to say this, but that's NOT how Russian tactics work.
Click to expand...

Well i wasnt in any point saying that Russians only used that tactic or that it was popular on late world war 2.

And that movie really isnt a documet, its just some action war movie made by Soviets. Like Nestor bring forth

How ever most of you didnt propaply readed the comment i was argueing

Like you see TheSoviet9th said that 1. Enemy at the gates is insulting because it shows rushing soviets, so i posted movie made by soviets them self where they rushing too. 2.He said that Russian tactics doesnt work that way, and i argued that no it was strongly used on winter war.

Nestor Makhno said:
I don't think that film is meant as a documentary on tactics
Click to expand...

No its not, i usually use Eddy Bauer - World War 2 for that, 3600 pages and 12kg of good documentary including lot
of citations directly from generals memoirs.
 
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#34
TheSoviet9th said:
I hope you realize the Hollywood movie "Enemy at the Gate" is one of the biggest insults to the Soviet infantry during Stalingrad. There is a scene where Russian soldiers, wave by wave, are rushing a German machine gun and getting gunned downed. I shouldn't have to say this, but that's NOT how Russian tactics work.
Click to expand...

That doesn't negate the fact that they did use human wave attacks extensively through out the war. I've heard countless battle accounts from my Grandfather and read many memoirs of soldiers who experienced the exact same thing. Russians screaming Urraahh! and charging into their positions. But generally there's an artillery bombardment before these attacks take place. Even the Germans used these desperate tactics in the Hurtgen forest. It comes down to having inexperienced leaders in command.
 
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#35
ro2rick.jpg
 
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#37
TheSoviet9th said:
I hope you realize the Hollywood movie "Enemy at the Gate" is one of the biggest insults to the Soviet infantry during Stalingrad. There is a scene where Russian soldiers, wave by wave, are rushing a German machine gun and getting gunned downed. I shouldn't have to say this, but that's NOT how Russian tactics work.
Click to expand...

did you play on a full 50 server????? try to be mg one time and i think that you would change your idea about that!!! XD
 
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