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Criticism for TWI - useful for their next game

RO2?! Hold on know, we have to complete this version first!

So far, people have listed what I think are RO's stregths, realism, attention to detail, atmosphere, EASTERN FRONT, support etc.

What could be improved:

Tank combat, unlike the FPS which is almost a WWII infantry soldier simulator, the tank component feels arcadish, especially the hit detection system.

Minor weapon tweaks. Screw balance, we strive for realism. The PPSh fires from an open bolt and should not recoil so badly. TRACERS need top be addressed. Already corrected in Kriegstadt so it is possible. Historically accurate reticules need to be returned to their respective sights. Textures for the PPS-43 can be tweak near the hinge mechanism, a bit blurry. MG-34 single fire mode needs to be addressed. Barrels overheat to quickly. I'll think of some more.
 
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TWI as a tuna! Can't wait till we're all attaching ourselves to to Yoshi's underbelly for transportation.

But seriously though, i cant think of much to add to whats already said, me personally, i'd like to see more environment interaction, holes in walls, glass/furniture/mirrors breaking, buildings destroyed making rubble to hide in, but i guess games just aren't up to that standard of interactivity yet. Or bring back the modeled F1 shrapnel from the mod, awesome.
 
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RO2?! Hold on know, we have to complete this version first!

Agreed!

Barrels overheat to quickly.

Sure, you can fire 1000 rounds or more, until the barrel glows. But if you want to spare the barrel and not damage it, you should change it between 100 and 150 fired rounds (german army instruction). And this is the number you can actually fire with the german MGs in RO.
 
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TWI as a tuna! Can't wait till we're all attaching ourselves to to Yoshi's underbelly for transportation.

But seriously though, i cant think of much to add to whats already said, me personally, i'd like to see more environment interaction, holes in walls, glass/furniture/mirrors breaking, buildings destroyed making rubble to hide in, but i guess games just aren't up to that standard of interactivity yet. Or bring back the modeled F1 shrapnel from the mod, awesome.

This is one of the keys to make this game great.

I like to play new maps, just becouse there are not "great" places to hide known by everyone... It is like attaking a new city. You must discover it on every corner.

If players and tanks are able to destroy walls, trees, buildings, every map would be a new one becouse you can creat new positions to defend or attack or new lines to go throught.

Arty should do holes on the floor as well.

If you hit someone, he should have some restrictions... Going slower all the time... not to be able to run... get tired sooner... less accurancy... Not to listen any more... There are a lot of positions betwen live and death.

Voice sounds should be limited to the close distance and be listened by both teams. I mean the VoIp of the game. (This can be bad for tactical game... I know).

People should have "experience" to get some of the special weapons and roles.

That experience could as well give some improvements in your player... run faster, aim faster, reload faster... Most of the times all player look the same one, and this could make one diferecce.

And it would be great if there was a campaign mode... (At the same time that the maps mode). So you can set a variable number of maps (From 2 to all the maps) And the rules to play the next map if you win or loose by a little or a big difference any map... (More experienced players or leader should have the right to choose the next logical map.)

This could make a server to play a Full campaign and you could see how is it going every day. (It should be good to set an option to make you to play the woole campaing with the axis or russian side you started.)

This is enought for now... but I have more ideas on my mind.

Regards and nice job.

(When I saw you were doing a RO2... I remembered just how bad DODsource was to me...Please, dont change the game... just make it better).
 
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This is one of the keys to make this game great.

I like to play new maps, just becouse there are not "great" places to hide known by everyone... It is like attaking a new city. You must discover it on every corner.

If players and tanks are able to destroy walls, trees, buildings, every map would be a new one becouse you can creat new positions to defend or attack or new lines to go throught.

Arty should do holes on the floor as well.

If you hit someone, he should have some restrictions... Going slower all the time... not to be able to run... get tired sooner... less accurancy... Not to listen any more... There are a lot of positions betwen live and death.

Voice sounds should be limited to the close distance and be listened by both teams. I mean the VoIp of the game. (This can be bad for tactical game... I know).

People should have "experience" to get some of the special weapons and roles.

That experience could as well give some improvements in your player... run faster, aim faster, reload faster... Most of the times all player look the same one, and this could make one diferecce.

And it would be great if there was a campaign mode... (At the same time that the maps mode). So you can set a variable number of maps (From 2 to all the maps) And the rules to play the next map if you win or loose by a little or a big difference any map... (More experienced players or leader should have the right to choose the next logical map.)

This could make a server to play a Full campaign and you could see how is it going every day. (It should be good to set an option to make you to play the woole campaing with the axis or russian side you started.)

This is enought for now... but I have more ideas on my mind.

Regards and nice job.

(When I saw you were doing a RO2... I remembered just how bad DODsource was to me...Please, dont change the game... just make it better).

I'm not quite sure if your post is on-topic.

Now, I dont want to be rude to you, but this thread is probably intended to give TWI the right feedback they need to gain a wider perspective on their past and future choices, helping them evolve in the modern gaming industry, rather than suggesting what features and content to use for a project that hasn't been officially announced.
 
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A few other points.

1.) Give server admins options built into the game. Tracers on or off? Run with the 32 player weapon loadout or the 50 player one, regardless of map size? When you're basing a game off of the Unreal Engine (whichever version), the whole idea is about versatility and customization. If you accept that mutators are fine, why not include those same sorts of options as a choice for server admins? If the fear is "But what if people think the modified game is actually the core game and they base their opinions off of that?" then the response is "Well, if they can already run mutators, how is the risk any different?"


2.) Figure out your gameplan as far as your target audience and stick to that gameplan. Do you want to broaden the game's appeal to people who weren't otherwise interested in RO? Do you want to keep the core audience? My advice is that you NOT make changes to the gameplay (aside from, say, improving existing systems to function)

For example, when RO:Ost first came out, the tank code wasn't working properly, so angling basically didn't do squat and all tanks died in two hits. After the first (or second?) big patch, tanks were able to withstand more hits (although they still mostly die in 2, but that's a side issue). That's an example of IMPROVING existing functionality. You never intended that tanks would be all dying in 2 hits, so the change was more like a bug fix.

By contrast, changing the number of full-auto/semi-auto/special classes on 50 player maps vs. 32 player maps (and not leaving servers an option to revert to 32 player loadouts), that was a change to gameplay that was perhaps more fundamental than realized at first. It certainly can change the PACE of gameplay by not limiting people to using the bolt. With your core audience (the guys who came here from the mod days), that's not an issue. Bolt, semi, SMG, doesn't matter. They're fine with whatever and some prefer the bolt even. With the newer players and folks from other faster-paced games, the idea may have been "Well, they'll want to use weapons that let them get into close quarters fighting quicker, and we don't want to limit their options or they'll ditch RO."

The problem here is that you have to sort of guage the identity of the game itself and figure out what your audience wants. Duh, right? But easier said than done. Personally, I think that you can gain a wider audience by adjusting certain aspects of the game, while maintaining the other core aspects.

I tend to think that things like changing weapon loadouts deviates too much from the core, but at the same time, enough of the core remains that changing weapon loadouts alone won't win you any converts. So in the end, you change the game that way and actually take a net loss.

Other things can be done, however, to make the game more accessible to players. A training course for single player would help, probably (IE: including a firing range and tank range map). More fluid animations probably would help too, as well as adjusting the speed of the avatars some. Right now, RO avatars move at a rather slow default speed (even slower if you go to iron sights). Their sprint, however, is considerably faster. By comparison, BF2 avatars move pretty fast all the time and sprint even faster. I'm not saying you should up the speed to BF2 levels, but you could reduce the difference between RO's movement speeds and thereby make the game feel differently paced, even if the net effect is that everything remains basically the same.

Like I said, I also think you can gain a much wider audience by includng more theaters. I know a lot of people who play Forgotten Hope -- to this day -- who aren't interested in RO because it doesn't have North Africa, Western Europe, or the Pacific. I know it's a ton of extra work, but I do think it'd make the game more accessible. I recognize that the eastern front is the primary focus of the game, but while the gameplay is fantastic, I think that this ends up keeping more people away than necessary. They'd love the game mechanics, but for whatever goofy reason, they can't handle ONLY playing one front. As we've also seen, saying "Well, the mods can develop that content" only takes you so far because, while I really look forward to them, it's now almost, what, 2 years on and we still don't have any full-fledged mods for RO.


It's adjustments like that that I think could do more to capture a wider audience while still appealing to your core audience. Changing the gameplay itself, though (as opposed to fixing it to work as it was always intended to), even subtly (IE: adding more semis/SMGs to 50 player servers) may cause more harm than good. Especially after you've already released the game and people have gotten used to it as-is.
 
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Once again we all love and hate Solo. Hate: for typing up all of our ideas and thoughts before we get a chance to, but love: for doing it for us and phrasing it all so perfectly.

RO is a fantastic game, perfect in many ways, but flawed in others, but let's face it, there's no game out there that isn't. The best thing is that the flaws are either miniscule little niggles, or the flaws that add to the wonder of the game. Like the occasional "silent shot" with the sniper rifle when you fire the last round. I love that personally because it's always a kill for me and it strikes a cord: The sniper, patiently waiting, one bullet loaded cos it's all he needs. Spots the squad moving up, breathing slows, calm, ready, time slows down, the squad leader runs forward, flanked by two rifleman, you see his eyes and fire. No sound, just another body in the count.

It could be part of a frigging movie!

But onto the topic once more. Literaly just a repeat of what everyone else has been saying and what i said in a previous post:
Take what you got, make it better. Work out all the little niggles that actually need fixing, like animations and such, and expand on it to bring in new theaters. Maybe just make it RO, with the eastern front and the North Africa Campaign, then release a a large content patch 6 months later with the western front, or the pacific, and release the other theaters as large content patches, like you've given us before.

If it's done like that then it'll also be easier for a server to run content from a specific campaign. British gamers would enjoy playing mostly in the North Africa campaign, firing that enfield through the sandstorm and what-have-you. Americans would likely enjoy the pacific campaign as well. Then there'd be people willing to play the whole lot or dedicate specific nights to specific campaigns. You'd see plenty of servers from different parts of the world running specific campaigns so people would know "I wanna play such and such, i'll go to this clans server, they always run the campaign i want to play."

Plus with the tank combat perfected in the next edition, the pacific campaign could even have a map with ships on it. I mean, ships are basically a giant waterbound tank, right? They have multiple cannons, most of them on a great big turret, plus there are smaller ships that can be used. I'm not saying make loads of maps like that, just one or two. That would get people interested in the game for sure.
 
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Good posts, everybody. I think this is useful for TW.

Do you remember TW's philosophy? "If it's easy to do in real life, it should be easy to do in-game." Well, that's even more important in today's gaming. Ostfront introduced a few really nice innovations (such as weapon resting), but so have other games. These games have really risen the bar for (multiplayer) gaming.

Gamers are becoming more and more demanding these days, and the games should reflect this. It's all about common sense. For example, in RO you can't hop over a bunch of sandbags or a low wall. You either have to dive ontop of the sandbags or run around it. This is unacceptable in today's gaming. The player expects that he can "mantle" over the obstacle, so the game should have this feature. Just an example.

TF2 does a really good job at meeting these demands. The TF2 devs realized that nade spam sucks, so they did something about it. They also made their game really newbie-friendly by showing snippets of advice during the respawn and loading screens.

It's pretty cool because we will see (multiplayer) games getting better and better the next couple of years, as a result of the higher standard. It's already happening. :)
 
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To help with the teamwork problem, I have a suggestion:

First of all, even two squad leaders isn't enough for a 32-50 player server. Although I'm not sure about the Russians, a German platoon (Zug) had between 30 and 40 soldiers, and had at least 2 or 3 squads. Therefore, a good solution would be to create 1 platoon on 32 player servers. This would require a new class of 1 platoon leader, and would require about 3 squad leaders. When the map loads, each squad leader is randomly assigned about 10 players from the various classes which he is in command of (kind of like the AI squads in practice mode). The squad leader can then assign orders to each individual in his squad (like Brothers in Arms). The platoon commander would be able to issue orders to his squad leaders. As an incentive for following orders, players who carry out their orders get points (if the SL tells a guy to provide suppressing fire and he does it he gets points). For 50 player servers, either the platoon leader would have more squads under his command, or there would be two platoons which would have to work in conjunction.
 
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To help with the teamwork problem, I have a suggestion:

First of all, even two squad leaders isn't enough for a 32-50 player server. Although I'm not sure about the Russians, a German platoon (Zug) had between 30 and 40 soldiers, and had at least 2 or 3 squads. Therefore, a good solution would be to create 1 platoon on 32 player servers. This would require a new class of 1 platoon leader, and would require about 3 squad leaders. When the map loads, each squad leader is randomly assigned about 10 players from the various classes which he is in command of (kind of like the AI squads in practice mode). The squad leader can then assign orders to each individual in his squad (like Brothers in Arms). The platoon commander would be able to issue orders to his squad leaders. As an incentive for following orders, players who carry out their orders get points (if the SL tells a guy to provide suppressing fire and he does it he gets points). For 50 player servers, either the platoon leader would have more squads under his command, or there would be two platoons which would have to work in conjunction.


You must remember that on a 32 player server only 16 players are on the german side not 32. Meaning that it would be logical to have one or 1.5 squadleader ;)
 
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Yeah i think i was slightly intoxicated when i posted it lol....but it still applies to the 50 player servers. Also, my guess (and hope) is that TWI's next game will support servers with far more than 50 people (maybe >64) so in that case more organization is needed otherwise it would just end up being like CoD2.
 
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PR

Public relations. I think this has really been a weak point at TWI. From the handling of the whole Zone Alarm fiasco to the simple requests of the community on the forums to the buddy list, I think the PR has been ill effective.

The general attitude of the developers is not considered to be a very positive one among the veterans and active community members of RO. This is furthered by the actions of several moderators on this forum. I think the core of the problem has been the negative, or lack of any response to feedback given on this forum. In the community it has become a joke to say "It's not a bug, it's a feature!", as that seems to be the attitude of the developers at times.

The veterans of this community love this game, a lot. It's exceptionally frustrating when we speak as a whole and we are ignored, as has been the case with many bugs and features we'd like to see implemented. Some of them have come some of them have not, but it's the handling of these suggestions that matters.

If the developers or the PR person would actually address concerns in a timely and efficacious manner on a regular basis, you would have a much happier and larger community. All it takes is a, "We heard you guys, we're working on it" or "Here's what we're working on for the next patch" or "We're not going to fix that because....". Seriously, it would be months and months before an update and often no one would know what was actually going to be in that update.

We all understand the devs are super busy and don't have time to look at the forums and respond to every comment or suggestion. I know Yoshi did a lot of this, but it seemed to me that there wasn't that much communication going back and forth and I don't understand why. There are still plenty of bugs in RO that have not been fixed and no one in the community knows why because you guys won't talk to us.

The devs won't even post why they won't say anything about their new game and attempts to ascertain such have been deleted from this forum. This should be a place that fosters discussion, feedback, and questions regarding RO, not a place that is haughty and hostile. Yoshi has been a saving grace but not enough information and positive responses have been given here on the forums.

No one's perfect but the PR can greatly improve. I guarantee you'll make more money and people happier if you have better PR :D
 
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Here is my "game 2" list. It's pretty much the opposite of most of the previous posts but hell why not spice things up.

1) Please keep the focus on Infantry maps. Considering how popular the few urban official maps there were I hope more make an appearance in game 2.

2) Find someway of balancing tank maps/combined arms and tanks in general. While Ogledow, BlackdayJuly(though akwardly) and Konigsplatz do this well others just fall flat on their face. The worst of the worse would be Bonderevo, runner up Arad.

3) Squashing bugs>Gameplay mini-features (changing barrels, random arty)

4) Server side option for detailed scoreboard. Stats tracking. Other stuff that makes people want to keep playing long after they got bored of it.


glhf
 
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here is my list:

1- smaller maps, just like the ones in the mod, huge long maps like berezina feels empty and are boring

2- more city themed maps, right now the only oficial one is Danzig, and because its the only one, well you know what happened...

3- bring back the bright maps, maps like hedgehog were bright, but look how its changed now, is not pleasant to play it at all, most maps now seem to be in a semi-dark atmosphere

4- reduce the swaying of the guns in IS mode

5- reduce the ppsh recoil

6- thinner ironsights (like in the mod) the Mosin Nagant IS now looks like a square and can't aim well at the far targets

7- remove the hood from the Kar's IS

8- make the auto-drop weapon something optional, is a pain in the *** trying to pick up ammo, and picking up a gun instead, and then trying again with the same results until someone comes around and kills me, or i end up with a gun without ammo

9- add radio options to the commander, like choosing from artillery strike, add weapon class slots to the team, increase reinforcements, or bring tank suppot if available, that would bring a new dimension to the game making every round be very diferent

10- limit the max possible players to 32 - 40, because 50 is just too much chaos

wow, fom what ive written here, looks like im almost telling you to fix the same game, well, I'm basically doing it, but most of the concepts here can be applied to a RO2
 
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LOL

My #1 would be the OPPOSITE of yours Federov :D

I understand that a lot of people has that position, but i have to voice mine and to be honest I had more fun playing the mod in Berlin than playing Berezina, IMO it doesnt even feel like playing anything, just sit there unloading the rifle at a few micro spots until you are lucky and receive a deathmessage, not fun IMO.

But those huge maps obviously orientated more for teamplay, IMO should be made by dedicated community mappers, and used for clan play, that way everyone gets what he wants, even if you like Berezina, you will not like it playing on a public server, you just can't force teamplay there. some people just don't have the time or dont want to be that deeply involved in that kind of gameplay, the ones that do, will look for it
 
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I just think that like some other games the some maps their slots should be limited on server slots. While having a variety of small and bigger maps. If you have say a 50 player server by default not allowing maps that already feel cluttered at 32 players.

Maps like tractorworks, leningrad, berezina are great maps for 50+ players.
Maps like danzig, kryasni, stalingrad kessel are great maps for 24-32 players.

But some maps especially smaller maps do not work on bigger servers. while the big maps do work on 32 players they do not work for filling up a server.

Ut2vote an ut2004 mutator had the ability for people to change map selection upon players actually in the server. So at the beginning of filling up a server you would play smaller maps, then later on the more people join at some point the tiny maps would not be votable anymore.

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What i hope primarily for the next game is the following.

maps with freedom, rather than plain push maps, having the opportunity and choice to pick somewhat in what order you cap things. Like say odessa where cap order for the attackers can mean everything. Or tractorworks. Not saying every cap should be attackable in the beginning since that could thin out the map but atleast having some choices. This was the reason why the old berlin mod map was so great and loved in the mod, even though its one map depending on how cap zones are capped it can feel like a completely new map.

Making things easier for the user, it was one of the original things twi wanted, but the weaponpickup system atm ain't really easier. People had issues knowing how to drop their weapon but removing the individual ability on dropping your weapon. Made picking up grenades panzerfausts pistols really a pain in the arse. And if you want to pick up a weapon and ammo you actually need to drop your weapon in the first place because otherwise you drop your old gun at the exact spot where the new gun lied and will pick up that gun again when you try to get ammo.
Ability to find where all steamfriends that play ro are playing (like the steamfriends tab in the steambrowser).
And of course ability to see how many people play in what server in game its kind of annoying to nearly join empty servers while they had 137/32 players :p

Default support for competetive play, and possibly some talking to the ladder/leagues and realism communities. To possibly get gamemodes or server options for those communities. Trying to find a middleground between some communities can actually sometimes hurt both.
 
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