Divided we fall? The future of RO.

[Bloodspitter]

I've been a devoted RO player for years now. I love the game. I support the servers I frequent and may some day be able to launch my own. I've been watching with keen interest the creation and production of the various RO offshoots like Darkest Hour, Mare Nostrum, Carpathian Crosses, etc. Perhaps there are more I haven't tried yet.

I don't want to see this fantastic game die; I want to see it prosper. But the following is the situation as I see it, and that's why I am posting these observations with the best of intentions. I know some of you have been playing this long enough to know what I'm talking about. This is just my opinion; maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Mark my words!

NOTE: THIS IS NOT ANOTHER "RO IS DYING" OR "DOOM AND GLOOM" THREAD. IF YOU THINK IT IS, THEN YOU ARE NOT READING IT CAREFULLY ENOUGH!


These are my observations:

The player base for RO is not what it used to be.
The number of RO servers has declined, and of those that remain, many sit empty much of the time. I remember the days of hundreds of servers and waiting in line to play on them. Now if I want a packed server, my choices seem to be Danzig 24/7 or Danzig 24/7. (No offense to those servers who choose that format, you are free to do what you wish and I appreciate having a place to play as do others.)

The variations of RO have spread this dwindling player base out even more.
Darkest Hour, Carpathian Crosses, and Mare Nostrum are all excellent, totally awesome games, but they are essentially just versions of the same game we all love: RED ORCHESTRA. With so few players to go around, the inevitable result is that they all suffer from lack of support.

Tough games are tough to love.
Let's face it, the RO family of games are harder than most and take a lot of time, practice, and perseverance to learn to play well. Not many newcomers are going to have the interest and/or patience to go through the process of researching what games are available, then downloading and installing all the necessary files correctly, only to find a handful of active servers. That will scare potential players away. Nothing says "dying game" louder than a bunch of empty servers (except maybe only 5 empty servers). If we want RO and it's variations to survive and prosper, it has to be as simple as possible to get the game started; leave the challenge for the gameplay itself. The current situation is just the opposite.

UNITE or DIE?
I would really like to see all of these great games combined under the Red Orchestra banner, with all their resources focused on a common platform. Why not be able to play Red Orchestra, and over the course of several maps experience all the variations rolled into one? Russians v. Germans one map, Germans v. Allies the next, British v. Germans after that, and so on. Those servers who preferred to only offer one version or another could still do so, but the rest would offer more variety and fun than ever, and bring all the player base together again. The devs could also work together on a common cause, thus resulting in faster and better results for all concerned. Failure to unite resources is not helping the game or it's mods. On the other hand, bringing everything under one roof will help keep them all improving, attract (and KEEP) new players, and bring RO into the future with guns blazing as The Standard for realistic WWII shooters.

I just don't think that it helps to fracture a game this specialized into smaller and more exotic pieces; why not combine them and keep the continuity? There aren't enough players, and the competition for attracting new players is formidable. I hope that all the devs of RO, DH, MN, and CC can get together, set aside their differences, and work together for the sake of the game(s).



"United we stand, divided we fall."

- Aesop (620-560 BCE)​

(from The Four Oxen And The Lion)​

thanks for your time, ggs

 

[Metalbourne]

This is essentially the idea behind the idea of RO:CAMPAIGNS. One place that hosts the main BIG WW2 Campaign with all mods RO/DH/MN/CC and can link to other campaigns. I feel the same way for the most part. Everyone is divided and that's fine that they want to do seprate ideas and campaigns, but as players dwindle down we need major hubs of play. We have a RO:LADDER, and a RO:LEAGUE. Both are excellent in tournemant type play, but no real big campaign for campaign players. I'm willing to do the site I just want support and make sure units show up before I do it, along with feed back and others help out. Make a council to help out....

 

[D3terioNation]

Its a damn shame that MN & DH cannot be integrated like CC!

Not sure how it works, but if you look at at player counts, do cc players count as RO plaers. I imagine they do.

Anyways, when I play a MOD like Mare Nostrum, I still feel like Im playing RO. So the numbers arent dwindling really...

RO is still alive in its mods!

 

[SchutzeSepp]

as a mod dev, i must say that human kindness stops where insanity starts.
you don't spend years, working each day every second of your spare time for a game someone else made and earns money with. thats just crazy. and all the ones who have done this, or tried to have given up, even though they added alot to the game.

say if now at this moment there are 100 people playing DH, it means that if DH was merged in RO those 100 players would also play on a DH server. so it would only benefit RO by making it seem like there are more players. while for the mods it makes no difference.
if nobody plays your mod when it's a stand-alone, then chances are nobody will play it when it's merged into the mother game.
if MN doesn't have a steady playerbase now, then why would there sunddenly be filled MN servers when it gets into RO? there is no miracle solution, mods can perfectly stand on their feet alone. all they need is enough content, strong support and a constant stream of new content. and to be able to deliver such a steady support and steam of content, you need alot of motivation.
and the most motivating thing for me and the other devs is to know that every single player on a DH server is playing our game because he likes it.
if DH was added to RO, even if we then maybe had a bigger potential player base, it would be alot less rewarding for us, and we certainly wouldn't have been able to do half the things we do now. and DH would by now have been drowned into RO, just like CC

also a certain part of the DH crowd came directly from other games, several entire clans came over to DH from other games without ever playing RO. im not sure if they would have done that if DH was merged into RO

 

[Apples]

Yeah. Incidentally the one mod that's integrated seems to be the one with the least players. And it's a damn shame too, because I think it's the best one.

I do wish the three mods would combine or something though...

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

all very good points......i think we all realize that the community is much smaller than it used to be, and in order to keep it going, there needs to be some changes in how the community opperates. the reality is that there will never be a revamp that doubles the size of the community or anything like that, but the important thing is to keep the core community of current players still involved and get ready to form a solid foundation for "game 2", whenever it arrives. lets face it, everyone thought that the three mods would draw in huge new crowds......while there was some success in doing that, it was nothing like we all were imagining. my philosophy is consolidation. i agree with the previous posts in the sense that the mods should be integrated, and along those lines, the number of servers needs to shrink in size. yes, it is important for say, clans to have a match/practice server.....but looking at 100 absolutly dead servers is just pointless since the players are almost always going to the same 7-10 populated servers. map voting should be done away with, but that doesnt mean no customs......have a dedicated custom only server, dedicated CC, MN, and DH servers....this forces people to only have those servers as options, which mean more full servers and more fun. i love the mods and think they are excellent...continue the fight nights, those get full servers every week. with places for competition....should be one home for "regular" clan vs. clan leagues/ladders/tournaments, and one home for campaigns...like metal suggested, perhaps combining IC with a large scale campaign that includes the mods, and if the mods were able to integrate into RO servers, it would be muich easier for a campaign to run smoothly.....allies defending stalingrad as russians, right into the germans repelling the americans at omaha beach, then to the deserts of n. africa.....that would be awesome!....like most have already stated, pooling resources is the key. people all working together. this division of mods, campaigns, leagues/ladders, whatever is the main thing keeping the community from growing. something that could really help out the competitive community is more public guys joining up with clans/units, as the lack of numbers is what is keeping many quality clans from being functional. i think many public players are afraid of the time commitment, but really, time commitment is nothing....i mean, for example, a player averages 25 hours of RO in two weeks......that's a match/scrim a week with plenty of extra pracice time! plus being part of a tight knit group of players is one of the coolest experiences you will ever have! pubbies, ask around, clan guys will tell you, it is unreal!

it seems as though the same things have been discussed again and again, and most people here understand what needs to be done to keep this community alive and well for many more months, heck even years! the solutions are really there, it is just up to the members of this community to put egos, the past, pride, and whatever differences we all have aside to better the community. it is not all about who has the better mod, the most popular server, the best clan/unit, the best campaign/league/ladder/tournament, the best maps etc......it is about working together to accomplish the common goal of everyone having fun playing the BEST ww2 shooter the world has ever seen!

 

[Bloodspitter]

Right now, in order to play a mod like DH, I have to:

1) know it exists in the first place
2) find a website with working links
3) download all the necessary files
4) install all the necessary files (correctly)
5) start the game
6) find a server that actually has players on it

That is why there are only 100 players instead of the 1000 there should be (and could be).

Now, imagine if all I had to do was start one game - Red Orchestra - automatically updated via Steam- and select a server from one master list to access RO or any of it's mods. Imagine one server list, with the mods organized into categories to make it easy to find the one I wanted to try. If I wanted to shoot a M1 Garand on Omaha Beach, I'd select a DH server. If I craved an Enfield in Africa, I could select a MN server. If I wanted to shoot a Mosin-Nagant in Stalingrad, I could select an RO server. Romania? CC server. You get the idea. No more disconnecting, reconnecting, loading, reloading, patches, etc. etc. Just start the game and start playing whatever type of campaign I wanted. Every single player on your DH server, for example, would be there because they like it- the difference is, you'd have access to a LOT more players!

The mods (and RO itself) are suffering and will continue to suffer from lack of players unless something is done that is outside the current way of thinking. The way you get more players is to increase exposure, AND make it SUPREMELY SIMPLE to get to the games! One game, one server list, several mods. I'm not suggesting getting absorbed, or losing your mod's identity, or anything of the sort. EVERYONE would benefit from increasing the player base. That can only be a good thing.

Face it: we are trying to get people to play a pretty specialized niche of game here- a niche of a niche of a niche really. The easier we make it, the more sucessful we will be.

Think of RO as the trunk of the tree, and the mods as the branches. That is how it should be, not several weak trees all fighting for the same little bit of rain and sunshine just to survive. United, the tree could grow to the sky!

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

that was an outstanding comparision blood. you head the nail on the head with that one. and along with it, no one branch can ever become greater than the trunk of the tree itself.....the roots are grounded, the trunk is strong....lets make those branches grow thick and strong.

 

[/linuX/gitano]

Hi,

Just a few points from my side:

1. I think the mod developers have stated this often enough and there wont be an integration inside the RO client any time soon, primary due to coding issues and of course artistic issues. I think we should simply respect this.

Personally i don't think firing up several clients is a real problem (heck, even downloading/ installing different clients isn't), everyone being a bit into computers should be able to doubleclick a few links/ installers. Of course, things would be much easier with:

2. Steam integration.
While i know there's something in the works for at least one of the mods, this is the way to go for the current modding teams. Once mod x,y,z pop as an installable option in the Steam games tab, the install/ patch problem is solved. And having your hardly worked out baby appearing there should be quite enough motivation for a developer, i guess .
Hell, now that we had RO:OST via Steam, lets at least benefit from the system in this way (wasn't that the only benefit about the steam system at all? content management vs. freedom...but thats another issue )

3. Gameserver browser/ master server issues:
Currently, the only real thing which nearly kills RO:OST (and the mods) for me is the almost unuseable server browser. Hell, this is a multiplayer game... if i wanna see populated servers while being in game and not being able to look who is on those few i see... refreshing the servers several times after a game and only getting 8 of usually 40-60 servers (DH)... this is really a game killer. Steam browser behaves the same, all i can do is pinging servers dirctly inside favorites or with an external programm like f.e. gslist.
All this used to work with the old UT master server integration, and i understand that this had to be switched off due to financial issues. Still, i think it is intolerable for a game which is still being sold. Which leads us directly to:

4. Support.
I understand that "game2" is now in the works and the primary focus of TWI... but honestly, if u guys wanna keep your player/ customerbase, i'd suggest that You would at least address a few of these bugs with some updates from time to time. I know... You guys did so for almost 2 years (which is an EXTRAORDINARY long time compared to other companies...) many thx for this and thumbs up, but still... as a die hard fan i'd love to see at least some rudimentary support going on .

Well, apart from the last 2 points, i really don't see much danger for RO:OST dying. The comunity always was a kinda "specialized" one, with lotsa strong egos and views...i think the nature of the game does not allow huge playbases like f.e. in CoD or mohaa. Personally, i can live with 2-3 filled servers pretty well, lets say of 90 active players there are 60 good players in one evening, i think its perfect . Kinda gives me back the 3.3 CA feeling .

Just my 2 cents,
gitano

 

[Atomskytten]

Isn't Red Orchestra and its mods like Darkest Hour at the very end as we speak? One is lucky to find more than a handfull of servers to play on nowadays and usually its TWB's servers which means very little to no custum maps. The mods and few servers with custom maps has killed RO in my opinion and I don't see the game getting a new life even with new contents such as Tiger IIs etc. etc. as it is way too late now to bring back the players who used to play the game.

The way I see it the game is, but for a small hardcore of fans, dead - even this forum is showing it through its decreasing number of posts.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

not quite dead yet.....COD (the original ) now that is dead if there are still 4 servers always full 24/7????.... not dead....20+ clan /10+ realism units still active??.....not dead......people starting new competition??.......not dead......mods with new content??.........not dead.....new maps (that just need to be played)......not dead


point is, this community is not dead, but DYING. and the previously mentioned reasons from the last 4 posts explain why. something like server integration.....while devs have said that will never happen, that is something that we will just have to deal with, but i hope everybody at least realizes that that will be a key factor leading to the death of the mods.

 

[SchutzeSepp]

you seriously can't expect for a game to keep the same amount of players year after year. what is happening is totally natural, the player count will always go down as the years pass by.
in fact it is probably a miracle that a niche game like RO is still verry much alive and kicking.
even more unexplainably wonderfull is the fact that one of its stand alone mods is doing quite well with its own solid steady playerbase.
many mods for games with a much larger playerbase such as COD and BF can't say the same.
RO and DH are pretty much two seperate games now, and the difference will only become greater with every new update we will release. so if RO is naturally declining, then at least DH will still have a chance to grow. just look at the activity on our forums, and the countless custom maps being made, by people who got motivated by the release of DH to learn how to map.

 

[UncleDrax]

Realize that this thread has 2 seperate topics being discussed:

1- Mods to Mutators (like CC, call it 'integrated' if you like)
2- Steam Distro of Mods



For Mods to Mutators;

Right now, in order to play a mod like DH, I have to:

1) know it exists in the first place
2) find a website with working links
3) download all the necessary files
4) install all the necessary files (correctly)
5) start the game
6) find a server that actually has players on it

Just a point on contention;
Asid from step 5; you have to do this for a mod regardless of if it's integrated or not.
(well you still have to start the game, just it's the same place you double-clicked before)


--------------
Steam Disto is another matter entirely.. and it's more of an issue to take up with Valve then anything us (mod developers) can take care of.

Would we like to distro over steam auto-magically? sure.. it's neat.. who wouldn't..
.. do we know what'd be involved to accomplish such a task.. nope.. not the foggiest.. and we're probably be subject to a more strenous trial/testing for the mod before it'd see Steam.

 

[D3terioNation]

DH is a strong mod with a bright future. At the end of the day, if people see it and want their own copy then they have to own RO! I think its irrelevant whether they play it or not, though Im sure they will try it!

See the mods will bring people to RO and without them, more & more people would stop playing altogether! But for now theres still interest here and in the custom community!

Take the kubelwagon by Foobar for example. Its gonna be for RO and MN I beleive, and it will bring back loads of players who want to try it in whatever custom its implemented in! Thats just 1 small example!

RO could do with another patch to generate more interest, but its best the devs work on GAME2 which is better for the long run!

 

[rossmum]

I've noticed that DH is really only really playable for me at certain times, so I've been playing more or less an equal amount of RO and DH recently. It seems a lot of other people still do as well, because about half the people I was playing DH with yesterday were all playing RO later in the afternoon. I intend to continue playing both, myself.

 

[7.92mm]

No sorry i think you wrong because even if the original RO dies we will still have people playing RO 2, and people will probably start making mods for RO 2 when it comes out.

 

[Atomskytten]

We don't know if there will be a RO2 or?

 

[Bloodspitter]

Just a point on contention;
Asid from step 5; you have to do this for a mod regardless of if it's integrated or not.

You don't have to do it to play Red Orchestra. And I wish you wouldn't have to do it to play a mod for RO. All you should have to do is simply start RO and select your game. Everything should be automatically updated. The mods are all so similar to RO, they are essentially the same game; it doesn't make sense to split them up, from a players point of view. I'm sure there are good reasons for doing so, from the devs point of view (and probably the corporate/legal also), but the bottom line is the end result is not user-friendly and thus taps into only a very small segment of the potential player base.

I don't know what you call it (integration?), but that is what would really give this game and it's mods a huge shot in the arm. If it's not possible now, then it should be seriously considered for any future releases, be it RO2 or whatever we are lucky to get.

Last point: please understand, I'm not complaining, just putting feedback into the comment box. I see problems and have to try to make suggestions to solve them; if it all fails, at least I've tried. I'm not a dev, I'm a player. I'm grateful for all the work you guys have done to make these games possible. All I'm asking is to take a big step back and look at the big picture from a player's point of view again, and see if maybe there isn't some way to make finding and playing these games smoother, for the benefit of all of us.

See you on the front.

 

[D3terioNation]

If you owned UT2007 and found a mod that you quite liked, you wouldnt think twice about launching and updating it as it a totally separate game altogether would you?

Same rules apply to RO. The mods are using the game as if it is an engine in its own right! DH and MN are essentially different games, doing things totally different to TWI and taking it in a new direction!

Maybe NOW all the mods feel the same. But after the next patch for MN & DH, you will notice a stark difference!

 

[UncleDrax]

Nah.. I dont' think you're complaining; i'm just trying to help out with the reality of the situation. Feedback is good. I like feedback...

Sure; I understand .. but I'm just pointed out that unless TWI sucks up the mods into them; they will never be part of the 'stock' red orchestra. This will never happen (because if nothing else, they are to busy working on 'game 2'.

I agree that if it was all magically in one bundle, then that'd be super-easy for users and people wanting to flip back and forth could do so without any extra step.
Right now the easiest for that is CC; and you -still- have to do all those steps (get the installer; know about it, install it, find a serv with it).

Realize that the mods are not part of the retail product and thus will likely never be incorporated as such. As true with mods in every other game out there, you have to grab it and install it separately; else you can't play.