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Pavlovs house

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#21
myzko said:
Do you think there where any other "Pavlovs houses" on the Eastern front? But they did not get famous? :)
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One of my favorite Pavlov stories is the one about him becoming a monk after the war. Apparently some interviewer asked his wife about this... she laughed and said "Well, when he died, he was still a Communist and an Atheist:... Ooops. Wrong Pavlov!
 
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#22
Do you think there where any other "Pavlovs houses" on the Eastern front? But they did not get famous? :)
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Stalingrad, a provincial center of 500,000 inhabitants, was the Soviet Unions's third largest industrial city, producing more than a quartet of the Red Army's tanks and other mechanized vehicles. (John Shaw)
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The German troops began to assault the city during the final week of August, 1942.


By October, as John Shaw states in Red Army Resurgent, from Time-Life's WWII Series (1977):

Elsewhere in the city, scores of isolated strong points--tiny Russian islands in the German sea--fought their own private wars.

Among these redoubts was a building on Solnechnaya Street, where a handful of men led by a sergeant named (Jacob) Pavlov held out for 58 days; the place became known as Pavlov's House and the sergeant, who survived the war, would always be called the Homeowner. (p. 152)
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.

That gives the street's name where the house was located; then we get a sense of the weather conditions during October in the very next paragraph:

(General Vasily Ivanovich) Chuikov (who was the main Soviet General inside Stalingrad proper on the West Bank of the Volga) had yet another concern: The weather was unseasonably warm . . . Chuikov knew that the Volga around Stalingrad did not freeze quickly; it sometimes took weeks. During that time the river churned with huge slabs of moving ice, rendering it impassable even to armor-sided vessels, and Chuikov dreaded that indeterminate amount of time when the crashing ice floes would cut him off from supplies as well as from reinforcement units that were now arriving from all over Russia.
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By early November, the Germans "possessed 90 per cent of the desolate city."



Then the Soviet forces executed their massive counter-attack on November 19, 1942.
 
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#23
Divinehammer said:
since I said I would pick this up noone else has bothered to help much except for Slyk and a few others....
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Well theres a few ppl who used to post on these forums that don't anymore - who were just the kind of folk who would help you with this. Unfortunately interest in the forums seems to be dropping off like the game to some extent.
Personally, compared to others helping you here, I can't tell you anything about the area layout - but i certainly know how i'd make this map play.
However, the right to make those creative decisions lies with the one putting the hard work in - you - but i would be happy to let you know how I'd set the battle up if you were interested- presuming it still works with how the map turns out structuraly.

I also had a look at this map, but decided to stick with my own project instead.
I made a thread asking for some advice on it but got zero replies so don't think you've necessarily got it that bad mate!

anyway, i'm sure this will work out well - remember if yourself or others can't get the exact information on this map, then who's going to say you've got it wrong? Let your creative imagination fill in the gaps.
As long as players feel they are involved in that particular scenario, you will have paid enough homage to historical realism IMO.
 
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#24
Here's another aerial shot; Pavlov's House is the top left house.

There is a computerized version of the area, not 100% accurate, but very similar to the historical surrounding area, from a Mod being worked on for Company of Heroes, I believe:







There definitely looks like there is something between the two houses in the aerial photo; it looks like a wall to me;

And directly behind the bottom left house in the aerial photo, it looks like a ditch.

I'm no expert, but that is what it looks like to me.



Here's a preview of Osprey's Soviet Fortifications booklet on Google Books; there's only a few pages that they let you preview about 8 pages for free, but there is a description of some of the various techniques the Red Army used to make houses into strong points (the illustration that is only partially included in the preview is the illustration on the cover of the booklet; so just click on the cover to see that):

http://books.google.com/books?id=TU...fLJv&sig=FHztYpcVnBVdzFBYeuiIyqGD4QA#PPA58,M1
 
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#25
Gamburd said:
Here's another aerial shot; Pavlov's House is the top left house.

There is a computerized version of the area, not 100% accurate, but very similar to the historical surrounding area, from a Mod being worked on for Company of Heroes, I believe:







There definitely looks like there is something between the two houses in the aerial photo; it looks like a wall to me;
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I think the line between the two houses is a railroad that crosses over the tramline near where that small building in front of the two houses stands.

And that second picture is from Close Combat.
 
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#27
Trendkill said:
I think the line between the two houses is a railroad that crosses over the tramline near where that small building in front of the two houses stands.

And that second picture is from Close Combat.
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Where at in close combat did this come from which map I installed the game be I did not see it I have close combat 3 and the new Iron whatever... I didnt see a map from there these are good shots whish they were a bit bigger though.

I did find a larger photo of this thanks. it is quite a bit like my map already. Thanks.
 
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#29
aktionman said:
This can be seen clearly on the map posted by Nestor above. Also, Nestor's numbered photograph of Pavlov's house and the surrounding buildings is an excellent contribution -
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Thanks - not sure it was even noticed. I have to say, I fail to see how another game's maps can add anything to producing a map for RO - particularly maps that deal with a different level of engagement (squad vs squad rather than fps).

And that's quite apart from whether the maps are accurate or not.

That aerial shot of gamburd's is very nice, though - I wonder where it is from and when it was taken.
 
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#30
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#33
Nestor Makhno said:
Yeah, sorry if I'm coming across all needy and that :)

That photo of Russ's gives some good info about the relative heights of the buildings by looking at the shadows above each one.
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Yes Nestor thanks for all of your material I use it quite frequently. Sometimes I make posts and they are not very eloquent because I am doing them from work. But your posts are much appreciated. I have especially been using the aerial photo you posted recently. The map is coming along but I havent been able to work on it much this weekend. I would post some pics but I think I want to get further along actually I think that a youtube vid would be a better preview medium.
 
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#34
I had a question: was this "Area of Fallen Fighters" the "January 9 Square" near where Pavlov's House was located???


I know Pavlov's House was in the city center.

Here's a wartime photo of the "Area of Fallen Fighters."





And does anyone know where was that strange looking public arts work sculpture of the "Children Dancing Around the Alligator" located???


The map is kind of fuzzy, but you can see "9th January Square" on the right:












 
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#37
Divinehammer said:
Can anyone confirm what weapons would have been available at the time. I have MP40 but what about MP41? I may give the germans a few more automatics but hasnt been decided yet.
I dont think the STG or any autoloader guns would have been there like the G43 or the SVT.Thanks.
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maybe a few G41 and a vew SVT40, but def no G43 or Stg44
 
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#38
'Ploshchad pavshikh bortsov' or Square of the Fallen Fighters (or Heroes) is just over 1 km from the Square of 9th January, which is North-east of it.

The statue of the children dancing around the Crocodile was known as Barmalei and was located in front of the Main railway station (Vokzal I) which was close to, but not actually on, the Square of the Fallen Fighters.

On Google earth you can see Fallen Fighters at the following...

48
 
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#39
Divinehammer said:
Can anyone confirm what weapons would have been available at the time. I have MP40 but what about MP41? I may give the germans a few more automatics but hasnt been decided yet.
I dont think the STG or any autoloader guns would have been there like the G43 or the SVT.Thanks.
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Stupid question gives a stupid answer... The Stg/MP44 or the G43 (the name says it all) are weapons from after Stalingrad. The G41 and MP41 are very very very very rare weapons so you can better stick to the regular weapons.
 
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