Thief III finally got me, never thought it would

[Nimsky]

I get the feeling most of you never actually played Thief 1. If you had done, then you'd realise that it doesn't require you to artificially make things harder for yourself or to tweak things for immersion. It managed it all on its own. If Thief 3 needs the player to do most of the work, then it's failed miserably.

Well, I played Thief I & II a lot and I lliked Thief III. Like I said, I think Thief III was a very worthy successor to Thief II, even though it was made by a different developer. I definitely consider it a good game. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

Oh and Chicken, Thief fans have been "ghosting" the game since The Dark Project, it's been around forever. It's just a great way to make the game even more challenging. But that doesn't mean that playing the game in the "conventional" way is less interesting.

That's one of the strongest aspects of the series; the game gives the player enough freedom to allow him or her to play the game the way he wants to. You can go berserk and slash every guard with your sword, but you can also play the game in a more sneaky way; carefully planning out your actions and eavesdropping on conversations, conservative use of arrows and violence etc. Apparently you more or less raced through the levels, and that's fine, but show some respect for the people who play the game in a different way.

 

[Ranari]

I didn't care much for Thief3, and honestly, I thought it could have been a lot better.

I felt that the level design in Thief3 was fairly bland in comparison to the levels in both Thief 1 & 2. It almost felt like there was a predictability in each of the maps with their layout, and I thought that the size and scale of the maps were a fraction of what they were in the first two. After you play maps like Down in the Bonehoard, Break from Cragscleft Prison, Framed, Life of the Party, and *the best Thief level of all time* Return to the Cathedral, all of which are gigantic in size, Thief 3 maps just felt like meh.

I also didn't like how Thief 3 took the "no kill" rule out of Expert difficulty. To me, that was like the entire reason to play on Expert difficulty, as it added an extra parameter you had to follow. In both Thief 1&2, Hard and Expert difficulties also added on extra parts of each map with different missions you had to accomplish. Take "Down in the Bonehoard" for example: In Normal mode, various parts of the level were cut off. In Hard and Expert, previous doors that were locked were now open. This added for a lot of extra replay value in each map. In Thief 3, Expert difficulty just meant you had to fine 90% or more of the loot in each map, and I would spend a good hour just running back and forth after I had disposed of all the baddies looking for that tini-weenie piece of loot I had overlooked. I found it quite frustrating.

Garrett just moved weird in Thief 3 as well. It felt very consolish. In both Thief 1&2, Garrett had no body. Your mouse/keyboard just controlled the camera, and you could see your hands, but your actual body was non-existent. In Thief 3, Garrett now had a body, which is cool. But since you turned the head, and the body followed, I thought it created for very disjointed control of Garrett.

The dagger was also a terrible addition to the Thief series. Let's put it bluntly: I like playing assassin, but I'm not stupid. Both the dagger and the blackjack shared the same exact function. Only one made noise, and the other did not. The dagger also made a mess. This I thought was a terrible move, as the sword at least had a separate function over the blackjack. At least with the sword (T1&2), you could defend yourself in a sticky situation. In Thief3, you would pretty much left to running around trying to get away, and fairly defenseless if caught in a corner.

So ya, Thief 3 just sucked. This was a major let down, because both Thief 1&2 were my absolute favorite games of all time. I was a real Thief fanatic there for a while, but c`est la vie.

For those who haven't played it yet and love the Thief series, check out Thief 2 : Shadows of the Metal Age. This was a full length fan created campaign (free) for Thief 2: The Dark Project.

It. Freaking. Ruled.

Go play it!

 

[Murphy]

I get the feeling most of you never actually played Thief 1. If you had done, then you'd realise that it doesn't require you to artificially make things harder for yourself or to tweak things for immersion. It managed it all on its own. If Thief 3 needs the player to do most of the work, then it's failed miserably.

In Thief 1 and 2 you could adjust the gamma value using specifically assigned key. So you had permanent night vision at your disposal and you could make the levels so bright that nothing could hide there yet the guards still acted blind. I set the gamma to a value where if anything was in a place so dark that a guard couldn't see it, I couldn't see it either. It made the game a LOT harder but also much much better because then it wasn't just you stalking the shadows, but also the guards could jump out of nowhere.
Thief 1 wasn't perfect either and I had to help it a bit.
I also refused to use the sword for most enemies with a few exceptions, mainly undeads, because with the sword you could kill anything except some ranged enemies and there was no need to play stealthy. And combat in that game isn't nearly as fun as stalking around blackjacking the occasional guard here and there.

You just have to make things harder for you in some games to make them be as great as you want them to be.
If its possible to make them great without any big effort, why wouldn't you do that? Would you prefer to play a crappy game over a good game just so you can complain about it afterwards?
Of course it would have been the job of the game to make itself as great as you want it to be - I agree 100% - , but if you just need to do such small things like refusing to buy health potions (T3), refusing to use the sword against regular enemies (T1 and 2), refusing to play in way too bright conditions (T1, 2 and 3), why wouldn't you do it?

I did, and with that Thief 3 was just as good as Thief 1 and 2. It had the same atmospheric levels, the same great stylized cutscenes and largely the same gameplay. All in all, a worth successor for me. More games could use sequels like that.

 

[Jokerman]

I get the feeling most of you never actually played Thief 1. If you had done, then you'd realise that it doesn't require you to artificially make things harder for yourself or to tweak things for immersion. It managed it all on its own. If Thief 3 needs the player to do most of the work, then it's failed miserably.

Patronizing is always easier than debating.

I havent played T1, true, but from what Ive read and learned about the series, T3 has kept the important features untouched- no radar maps or task arrows (you have to navigate- no dumbing down here), rich and intriguing storyline, detailed world, relatively excellent AI, stealth oriented gameplay and I can name a whole lot more. THOSE are the important things, not rope arrows vs climbing gloves.
And I dont see how lowering the gamma is such a demanding work.

 

[Slyk]

Personally, to add another thought... this game just SCREAMS to me for being made into a major theater release series. Not as glamorous as Spiderman, maybe, but this storyline has a lot of legs and could be pretty damn amazing with the depth of the story, the Hammerites, the Mechanists, etc. Could be very cool.

 

[Murphy]

Personally, to add another thought... this game just SCREAMS to me for being made into a major theater release series. Not as glamorous as Spiderman, maybe, but this storyline has a lot of legs and could be pretty damn amazing with the depth of the story, the Hammerites, the Mechanists, etc. Could be very cool.

Its cool because nothing is explained really. Everything happens in your head and there are only a few vague explanations for anything going on. That's what makes the game world seem bigger than it is. Because you get the feeling that you are running around in a complete world but you only know a fraction of it, but you are sure the rest is there. It isn't but it doesn't have to be.

Making a movie out of it would mean to deconstruct the myth with explanations and more details for the storyline and that would kill it. You can't just make a movie about a guy running around blackjacking others. A movie needs a detailed plot and none of the Thief games can provide one that would be appropriate for a movie unless you stuff them with additional details which would kill it.

Its that very mistake that made Soul Reaver 2 suck in comparion to Soul Reaver 1. In SR1 you got a few vague descriptions of the places you visited and everything else happened in your head. The basic storyline is that you are undead and you kill your brothers for revenge. Almost everything else happened in your head and in your head only. A mysterious voice rescued you. Why are you really here? Who is that voice? Why did he do it? Its the questions that make the story seem so great. As the movie would need to answer them to come to a satisfying conclusion it would destroy what makes SR's plot so good.
In Soul Reaver 2 they tried to explain everything. Cutscenes every few minutes that lasted for what seemed like hours full of needless talking, carefully explaining every detail only to have another character tell you later on that the first one lied all the time. It was boring.

 

[PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN]

Quotes, quotes, quotes. A professional troll would be proud of the response I just got and I'm not even trolling for it.

Gamma has nothing to do with it. I don't gamma cheat, never have. Ghosting is an entirely different thing. Going back and doing that is equivalent to me playing Max Payne with the Kung Fu mod and never using a weapon besides my own body and the bo staff. The point is that by default T3 is very easy when placed beside T1/2. It also loses the huge interactive levels and puts us in little chunks which magically remain frozen in time while we're in a different chunk. It dumbs down the mechanics of the game and makes many things much easier, whilst also removing some of the more intuitive features from the originals for no reason I can tell other than the developers didn't realise that they existed.

As I said before, for a stand-alone game it's fine, but it's not imo a worthy successor to its predecessors. As for "patronising", you can see it that way, but when it turns out to be a true statement for you it makes my point. I have to wonder how you can argue the issue without have played the originals. I'm not attacking you, I'm not patronising you, I'm simply asking how it's possible to compare a game with something you've never played.

T3 is the console version of Thief and it's just lacking. That's my opinion and nothing said here is going to change that.

Personally, to add another thought... this game just SCREAMS to me for being made into a major theater release series. Not as glamorous as Spiderman, maybe, but this storyline has a lot of legs and could be pretty damn amazing with the depth of the story, the Hammerites, the Mechanists, etc. Could be very cool.

God, don't say things like that. Uwe Boll might hear you and buy the licence. No matter how terrible I felt Thief 3 to be, the series doesn't deserve him.

 

[SheepDip]

Patronizing is always easier than debating.

I havent played T1, true, but from what Ive read and learned about the series, T3 has kept the important features untouched- no radar maps or task arrows (you have to navigate- no dumbing down here), rich and intriguing storyline, detailed world, relatively excellent AI, stealth oriented gameplay and I can name a whole lot more. THOSE are the important things, not rope arrows vs climbing gloves.
And I dont see how lowering the gamma is such a demanding work.

You serious? You're missing out on one of the best FPS experiences ever created and yet you're happy to argue that it's dumbed down bastard child of a sequel is somehow adequate?

Yeah it's fun, but comparatively it's like walking through the woods hitting bushes with a stick.

 

[Jokerman]

As I said before, for a stand-alone game it's fine, but it's not imo a worthy successor to its predecessors. As for "patronising", you can see it that way, but when it turns out to be a true statement for you it makes my point. I have to wonder how you can argue the issue without have played the originals. I'm not attacking you, I'm not patronising you, I'm simply asking how it's possible to compare a game with something you've never played.

Well, if you tell some1 to stfu cos he has no fisrt hand experience, which basically thats what you said albeit in a polite manner, instead of elaborating and providing points and examples that will force him to stfu- I consider it patronizing.

As an avid reader (past reviews, gamers forums inc.) I can get an idea about a subject even without having a first hand experience- there are many hardcore T fans out there that are pleased with T3 and my impression was that those who are not are mainly complaining about things such as how you are sucked into lock-picking mode whenever you try to open a door, how you are not blinded by your own flash bombs and so on, which to me seem petty compared to the more important stuff that I mentioned earlier.

Im more than willing to keep quiet on the subject if someone was to educate me on this matter instead of saying "oh, you didnt play the whoooole series?! how can you live with yourself?!" which is the kind of post I would accept to find on the HL2, nvidia fans or CS:S forums- there's a reason why Im signed here and not there.

 

[PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN]

I started to reply, but I'm far too tired and cranky to give you anything but a snarly remark so I'm giving up on this thread rather than get myself in trouble. I'd strongly suggest you do yourself a favour and get Thief 1 though. You might then understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Quietus]

Well it finally arrived (yesterday) I await nightfall then I shall embark. About all the talk about Thief 3 being dumbed down from 1 & 2 I can't say as I've yet to try Thief 3 except for the demo. So I'll find out, but to me the FPP (last "P" is for "perspective" since it's not a "shooter")"medieval thief" genre is soley maintained by the Thief series so they really have the market cornered on that so it's not like there are tons of options when searching for your perfect FPP "sneaker thief in medieval times" game. Like I said I welcome any mods that make the game more realistic and hardcore but I can't find any myself. I'm still debating if I should download a level unlocker and get straight to Shalebridge Cradle or if I should play it out from the beginning since Shalebridge is the main reason I got it..

 

[Slyk]

If I made the movie, it would be trilogy oriented and stay as true to the game as possible, without revealing/creating more background story. The cut scenes and all through 1 & 2 were perfect. And it did let you create the background and make assumptions, never quite knowing what, who, where, why. The story line would be more on the line of the story itself, not so much the loot hunts etc. and I would think should be more about stealth and avoiding conflict except in a few of those 'must kill villian' moments etc. I guess that's where each director takes their license. But in the end I would agree, you have to stick to the story and tell it close to the book or it would be ruined. Argue amongst yourselves over who the best director would be.

 

[Jokerman]

Peter Jackson of course and viggo mortensen as Garret.

 

[Murphy]

Thief 1 and 2 weren't hard.

 

[Nlogax]

On the expert difficulty, you cannot kill the inmates of the Shalebridge Cradle anymore.

 

[Quietus]

Well I just got through the first 2 levels last night so I guess that means I'm going to play it from begining to end. I got to say I wish I would've given Thief deadly shadows a chance a long time ago. If only not for that damn wimpy bow I would've got it probably the day it came out. The atmosphere and level design is incredible.

I love the night + I love medieval-(ish) settings so this is like the holy grail for me in a FPP. Atmosphere and immersion is off the charts. I love just admiring the setting I'm in, looking up at the sky, moon, city line, absolute dripping awesome atmosphere. I literally feel like a real thief in medieval times, it's really an incredible acheivement of immersion. Nobody does it better than the Thief series.

One bad thing though (besides the bow) is the AI are pretty stupid (or maybe just legally blind) on normal so I'll need to crank up the difficulty.

Oh and yes the thief series would be absolutely awesome to be made into a movie BUT it would absolutely have to be done right (treated seriously) and not turned into some typical joke fest like Van Helsing or similar mindless "hAy kidz itz TeH Oldye tyme WEEEE!" hollywood romp

 

[Quietus]

Well so far I'm really enjoying it. The level design and equally important the atmosphere and mood are absolutely phenomenal. I love it. There are definitely some "consolized" aspects about it which I don't like at all but so far I just try and ignore the stupid stuff and concentrate on what's good. One thing though: is there a screenshot button? So I can capture screenshots because I'm using an external program but the problem is the gamma is not captured correctly (too dark).

 

[Jokerman]

According to my calculations you should be in the cradle now.

 

[Murphy]

On the expert difficulty, you cannot kill the inmates of the Shalebridge Cradle anymore.

I only played it on expert (or whatever the highest difficulty is called) and I remember that I stabbed a few of the buggers. The black jack does no good but the dagger proves its value for once (and only once).

 

[Quietus]

According to my calculations you should be in the cradle now.

No, unfortunately I can't play every night (maybe once a week if lucky) so I'm only at the seaside mansion so far. But I will eventually get there, and I'm very looking foward to it. But in the meantime the game is truly awesome with superb atmosphere as one of the big high points irregardless so I'm enjoying my journey immensely as I go.