PPSh-41 Recoil

[Quietus]

The fix is easy.

Reduce recoil to what it really was in WWII (in the game). You can keep the game ballance by simply making the weapon less accurate. As it is now, it is a sniper weapon with bad recoil.

This is the most important concept to grasp IMO. This topic has been talked to death for sure but to me it's the absolute #1 thing I can't stand about RO! so I'll give my opinion once again. I agree with everyone who thinks it needs reducing and not just the ppsh but all smgs. Just some simple concepts that seem so wrong to me really hamper the fun. Let's face the RL facts people....smgs were designed to be "noob friendly". There's nothing shameful about acknowledging facts about weapons. That's what they were made for, they were made for ease of use and on the move and or unsupported shooting.

Physics: heavy gun firing small bullets= less recoil. Sure the ppsh has a high ROF but as proved in many video clips it's entirely possible to fire smgs from a standing position and not have them jerk all around like a kite in a tornado. I've said this before but I'll say it again: You shouldn't have to find a benchrest everytime you want to fire your smg, come on now. I've learned to adapt but that's not the point. The point is I'm using unreal tactics and not using the weapon how it was (is) used IRL. I mean I can sit all day with my ppsh rested in a window sill and lean out barely exposed and absolutely destroy people with it out to very long range. But I can't use it how it was intended which is to be a usefull weapon for firing on the move and in an unsupported position. Gonzos solution is the best, lower the recoil but increase the bullet spread (make them less accurate at distance). Problem solved IMO.

 

[zeep]

RO's dev mentality is just bollocks. Afraid of having the SMG's perform like they should and thus unbalacing the weapons (like they should be) led the dev's to decide to simply nerf, yes NERF, the smg's.

Bottom line.

Oh but wait, if your framerate is high enough, like on the dev's systems, then the recoil is somewhat less. Well that's fair isn't it?

 

[Franc-Tireur]

i think too that the recoil should be lessened slightly to meet realistic performance of the pepeshka .

When prone , the recoil seems ok , but when standing and crouching , it is perhaps a bit overdone , like if you were wielding the Ppsh41 with the arms of a young soldier weakened by anemia , cold and hunger , lacking strength to absorb the recoil better .

Somehow , i messed up in my vote with a mouseslip and ended voting on the wrong choice hence why i post .

 

[I. Kant]

Oh but wait, if your framerate is high enough, like on the dev's systems, then the recoil is somewhat less. Well that's fair isn't it?

Ah, so that's why firing even the shortest burst in IS while standing ends up with me enjoying the sky. I've always wondered why on some days (maps) the recoil was bearable and on some it was a complete misunderstanding.

 

[BRGillespie]

I fear the day that the Pepeshka's recoil would be reduced. It'd be a foolish decision to make given the nature of RO's gameplay.

Can you imagine a Rambo Soviet running around with a weapon that fires 900 rpm, has a 71-round drum magazine, and has recoil comparable to the MP-40?

The unrealistic recoil of the PPSh is a solution that fits the nature of RO's gameplay mechanics. Before you go screwing around with recoil levels and the like, fix the way the system works. Add in complete inaccuracy while running/moving, and then we can talk about reducing the Pepeshka's recoil to realistic levels.

Until that happens, the PPSh stays the way it is. To give the SMG its realistic level of recoil would be criminal and completely game-breaking.

If you disagree, then I'd bet you're one of the Rambo SMG'ers running full-bent into a room and emptying an entire drum at everyone you see.

 

[zeep]

How shall i begin..

I fear the day that the Pepeshka's recoil would be reduced. It'd be a foolish decision to make given the nature of RO's gameplay.

Then what exactly is the nature of RO's gameplay in your opinion? Is it to have certain weapons set to unrealistic values while claiming it's realistic? I don't know what would be more foolish, a certain group of players wanting a weapon to perform more like it's real life counterpart, or another group of players who want to keep everything as balanced as it can be because they think the game is more enjoyable that way.

Can you imagine a Rambo Soviet running around with a weapon that fires 900 rpm, has a 71-round drum magazine, and has recoil comparable to the MP-40?

We have Rambo's now. If by 'Rambo' you mean somebody who likes to hipshoot, either or not running. There will always be serious players and Rambo's and more.. You're gonna let them decide what to do?

The unrealistic recoil of the PPSh is a solution that fits the nature of RO's gameplay mechanics. Before you go screwing around with recoil levels and the like, fix the way the system works. Add in complete inaccuracy while running/moving, and then we can talk about reducing the Pepeshka's recoil to realistic levels.

Complete inaccuracy while running/moving? Fix the system? Are you claiming you want more realism? Explain..

There's heaps of things i want to see changed in RO that are never going to happen.. I'll take the recoil issue for now.

Until that happens, the PPSh stays the way it is. To give the SMG its realistic level of recoil would be criminal and completely game-breaking.

If you disagree, then I'd bet you're one of the Rambo SMG'ers running full-bent into a room and emptying an entire drum at everyone you see.

Tongue in cheek remark here.. Well unless you're one of the developers using a new account to voice your opinion (you never know right?) i'm not going to put much weight on your 'the PPSH stays the way it is.' remark.

Oh and my intentions and gameplay are completely free of any Rambo influence.

 

[Franc-Tireur]

Maybe , like many users suggested , aside from reducing a bit the recoil while standing and crouching , they should make the Ppsh 's barrel overheats when you fire extensively (like emptying 2 magazines in a row at 900rpm ) and thus loose accuracy ( a bit like the MG ) .

 

[BRGillespie]

Aside from my poorly-worded absolutes in that previous post, zeep (I certainly don't claim to be a TWI dev), I'm of the opinion that Red Orchestra is a realism-based game, not a simulation of WWII combat. My opinions on weapons "balance" and such are rooted in that belief.

Taking that into regard, yes... the PPSh should stay the way it is. Making the Pepeshka accurate out to 150m (or so, accounts on its accuracy differ) and detracting its in-game recoil to real world standards would imbalance the game. Emphasis on game. I also shy away from the whole "well if we lessened the recoil, then we'll lessen the amount of assault troopers on a map to balance things out!" simply because most maps don't mention exactly what forces are duking it out (a circa-1941 Red Army rifle battalion had a handful of SMGs, while late-war Motor Rifle battalions had an entire company of PPSh-equipped soldiers). If you want realism, well... there you go. About 50 - 75 Pepeshka's all coming for you.

My comments on the inaccuracy while moving and etc., etc. are based on a belief that if RO were to truly move into the realm of a combat simulation (rather than a "realism-based game"), it would have to portray how difficult it would be to jog/run with a SMG, fire from the hip at a cyclic rate of fire, and expect anything more than a suppressive reaction upon your target.

Perhaps impossible? I sure as hell can't fire my M-4 on the run and expect to hit diddly.

Anyway... as it's a game, yes, you have to take in account the Rambo players running around, as not everyone enjoys the particular playstyle and immersion that actually playing like you don't have a death wish brings. I really wouldn't want to face a RO player that has a realistic PPSh, especially since a lot of RO's current infantry-themed maps are of the CQB-variety.

Hope that elaborates my position on the topic.

 

[mat69]

Yeah, do it!
Uuuuuhhh, aaahh, u u uhuuu.

You know what? Realism isn't the problem, but solves it.
One of the things I hate about RO is that basically both teams attack. Normally at least two people would be at the front lines with deployed MGs, that's defence, that's war and not hupy dupy bla bli fun there none would watch the direction of enemy approach, there none would be in the trenches. Make one team really be the defenders, add stationary MGs, add a ****load of Sandbags. Add usefull (!) MGs.
Make better maps, the trenches in that trench map with the trainstation - forgot its name - suck, man I would court-martial the guy that planned them.

And now what? These "uber" PPSH users would encounter similar problems like their realistic counter parts: The enemy is prepared, the enemy also has dangerous firepower.
Did it ever occur to you that the PPSH should rape most of the Kar users in Odessa? That's CQB, there the MPs should dominate. How small should the maps in RO be to really see the power of the MPs?
And no, I mean while standing.

Yes I know, changing just one value would not be the best solution, but it would be a first step. Without steps no journey, without journey no reward.

 

[Proud_God]

Should smg recoil be reduced? yes yes yes yes and yes

It would be good for :

- realism
- gameplay: smg's are simple not fun too play with all the crazy recoil. Wild, unpredictable side-to-side recoil anyone?

The argument that it will screw up balance is not valid, as there are:

- class limits, which can be tweaked

I've been playing since beta 1.0 on UT2k3, so I have a solid basis for making these claims I think.

So DEVs, please, pretty please, reconsider the current recoil of smgs.

 

[Plaid13]

the devs couldnt care less about what we think on this matter. they have already decided this is what they want. im sure they have all played with all the weapons and have seen it just as bad as we have. they simply dont care. Same reason why the ppsh dosnt have selective fire. same reason why the tanks reload times are so long. same reason why the semi auto rifles have more recoil then the bolt actions. They claim its a realistic game then dont deliver it. Sadly its still the best fps out if you want realistic weapons. Nothing else even comes close. Maybe someday someone will make a fps game with realistic weapons that are realistic in every way possible but i dont see it happening any time soon. Maybe game makers just think that small caliber weapons shooting weaker rounds really do have more recoil then full size rifle rounds. With how long this thread is i kinda doubt the devs are even reading it any more anyway. Im sure they read the first few posts then got the idea of what it was about thought about it for about 15 seconds then forgot all about it. Just like the bug report forum.

 

[Plaid13]

Ah yeah after quickly scanning over this whole thread i noticed something i could have guessed. no dev responses at all. They dont even want to talk about the recoil of the weapons. not even a simple mention of why it is the way it is or why they chose to do this or if they think its realistic or if it was a balance or what.

 

[SheepDip]

This argument has been going for so long you wouldn't believe. There was a dev involvement looooooooong ago in other threads on the topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbcVHK0vg10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHRsodqFC1I

Here are 2 videos I made of the ppsh recoil aaaaages ago...its on like page 3 or something
It's perfectly usable but for a bit too much side to side movement...

 

[Plaid13]

hum im not sure if its just be cause thats low quality video or what but when i shoot the ppsh in game the flash seems much much more annoying. easy to lose the target behind it annoying. But yeah that recoil looks fine the thing is it dosnt stay like that. there are times when its fine and easy to control and other times when three shots has you pointed at the sky. I am pretty sure it happens when framerate drops lower. Like if theres a bunch of smoke and nades going off and lots of people shooting near by or artiliery near by.

 

[zeep]

Due to the (bad) coding short controlled bursts are impossible to do with the smg's in RO. There simply IS NO control other than countering the weapon's random movement that kicks in with full force as soon as the fire button is pressed.

BRgilespie, i understand your position. All of RO's weapons behave give-or-take like their real life counterparts, Ramm has most of these weapons at home (a fact he isn't shy about) and has modeled the in-game behaviour as such. But when he came to the (small) automatic rifles on the russian side he just upped the recoil, added some random side to side movement and called it a day.

Bottom line, because i'm venting and i shouldn't, these weapons are made worse for RO's overall balance. Other weapons perform fine. I say have them perform like they should, the gameplay will balance itself out. Weapons kill, deal with it.

I'm tired of this thread. No dev is going to respond. This recoil issue falls on deaf ears. Sadly, we're wasting time here. Most of RO's community members are happy with whatever they get served, i'm not that easy to convince.

 

[I. Kant]

Making the Pepeshka accurate out to 150m. [...] About 50 - 75 Pepeshka's all coming for you.

Completely out of topic, but it just somehow cracked me up during my early newspaper skmming. You do realise that Pepeshka is a rather affectionate term? As in a diminutive? It's got a funny jive to it - just as if you'd say "Guys with Colties and shotties coming at you". You know, it sounded funny in the context of your rather serious reply.



But on topic: maybe the recoil should be incremental? That is, if you start shooting, it kicks in, kicking up the barrel some, but then it doesn't instantly go way up - only when you keep shooting does it become more and more uncontrolable. This way we'd have the following pattern: no recoil - a small kick - steady building up transforming into a kicking buck.

The video of recoil that's been posted is... well, represents one of the recoils you encounter in this game. Since as has already been pointed out: sometimes it's no probs, sometimes even the shortest burst goes haywire. Perhaps RO would benefit much more from fixing this low-FPS-to-recoil problem and nothing else would have to be changed. I, for one, suffer from the insane recoil more often than not. And no, buying a new rig is not the solution

 

[Trendkill]

I think less PPSh recoil is one of those things that a lot of people hope for every time a new update or patch is announced, it's fine playing with it how it is, but it's one of those small things that you hope will get changed eventually.

 

[ramsy66]

Just to prove the recoil in RO is ridiculous: A woman using it and she gets none of the stupid effect from RO.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k233iJXy5tc

 

[Murphy]

Put these two examples side to side:

Here is ramsy's woman:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k233iJXy5tc
And here is SheepDip successfully fighting the recoil with his mouse just as the woman in the above video does with her arms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHRsodqFC1I
Watch them both. They are only a few seconds long so do it.

We are used to make the games automatically fight the recoil for us. In Raven Shield for example recoil is pretty low because the character automatically fights it.
In RO that's not the case and instead of having our character pull down the weapon we have to do that by ourselves.
However the two videos above seem pretty identical to me interms of recoil.


Having said that, I would prefer it if we didn't have to pull down the mouse as much as we have to. I and many others play with a low mouse sensivity and I litterally have to throw my mouse around and shuffle like a madman to fight the recoil half as elegantly as SheepDip did.
So reduce the recoil, tie it to the mouse sensivity or something but please make it so we low mouse sensivity users can use the weapon too.

 

[mat69]

Imo this woman's stands sucks, furthermore she does not look that massive.
Now compare that to a battle hardened soldier that knows how to stand, how to handle his weapon.
Shouldn't there be a difference?

Additionally what I'm talking about is unless you have these fps problems and a low mouse sensitivity you can handle that recoil to some extend, but the weapon is still not more usefull than the MP40. Some people here have argued that the MP40 was harder to handle than the PPSH, so why is that not the case in RO?

On my computer it happens very often that the PPSH looks into the sky and that is not realistic, how should that happen in real life? Same goes the other way, if I try to counter the recoil more - sometimes the very same movement (at least it seems so for me) causes controlled recoil, other times I'm shooting the ground.