Myth-Busting the Ostfront

[[-project.rattus-]]

Since when does being "left-wing" qualify anyone as a decent historian?

You got me wrong there. It's just that if you dare mention the german past of austria, you are immediately called a neo-nazi.

Also, saying that nazi-germany has it's roots in prussia is quite a claim. No doubt the prussian militarism largely influenced it, but the nazi movement started to rise in bavaria, led by an austrian.
Also, austria was not invaded and taken by force. We let them in. And Schuschnigg was not killed by the nazis.

 

[MAXX]

You got me wrong there. It's just that if you dare mention the german past of austria, you are immediately called a neo-nazi.

Also, saying that nazi-germany has it's roots in prussia is quite a claim. No doubt the prussian militarism largely influenced it, but the nazi movement started to rise in bavaria, led by an austrian.
Also, austria was not invaded and taken by force. We let them in. And Schuschnigg was not killed by the nazis.

Well, Dollfus was
(from http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/camp/eur/ea/eag-anc.html :

Chancellor Dollfuss

Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss had authoritrian political attitudes himself. He in fact modeled himself in a small way on both Mussolini and Hitler, Dollfuss renamed the Christian Socialist Party the Fatherland Front. He even began wearing a swastika-like device. To guarantee his authority, he abolished Austria's Constitution. He prohibited the NAZI Party along with all other opposition parties. Dollfus opposed union with Germany, but his actions weakened the democratic parties in Austria. The NAZIS went underground, but continued to gain adherents. After the NAZI seizure of power, Dollfuss was hopefull that NAZI infighting would delay Hitler from focusing on Austria. The Night of the Long Nights and the execution of R

 

[MAXX]

You got me wrong there. It's just that if you dare mention the german past of austria, you are immediately called a neo-nazi.

Also, saying that nazi-germany has it's roots in prussia is quite a claim. No doubt the prussian militarism largely influenced it, but the nazi movement started to rise in bavaria, led by an austrian.
Also, austria was not invaded and taken by force. We let them in. And Schuschnigg was not killed by the nazis.

It's not a question of where various fascists came from (and apparently the fascists were tripping over each other in their efforts to be as fascist as possible), its a question of which country is which. The Big Germany that we now know as Germany is the Germany that Bismark built, ie Imperial Germany and its republican successor which was Shanghied by the NAZIs in 1933. Austria is a totally different country, just as Peru is not Chile even though they may both speak spanish and have other similarities.

And it was a NAZI puppet who "invited" the NAZIs into Austria. So Austria is a victim of NAZI German aggression -- far moreso than Romania or Hungary for example.

 

[Pagan]

You all know this thread is gonna be locked eventually?

 

[Nestor Makhno]

The focus seems to have shifted from the OstFront to events of the late 1930's so it is getting way off-topic anyway.

 

[Murphy]

Hitler planned to invade Austria, but when the troops rolled over there they were welcomed by the Austrian population. That's why its called "Blumenfeldzug" (=Flowerassault).

Some time before, Austria was a part of Germany, just as Prussia (and other northern states), Bavaria (and other southern states) were. Germany wasn't a clearly defined state. It was a bunch of smaller states which were allies and called themselves German. And Austria was a part of that.
Austria and Prussia couldn't handle their ambitions as the biggest parts of Germany and eventually they faught each-other in the German-Austrian or Prussian-Austrian war, which the Austrians lost due to a better trainconnection and better equipment of the Prussians.
Only then they were NOT Germans anymore.

After they split themselves into the German speaking part and the Hungrarian part (they had different leaders anyway -> "Doppelmonarchie" = Doublemonarchy) the German speaking part even called themselves "Deutsch

 

[Heldentod]

Well, Dollfus was
(from http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/camp/eur/ea/eag-anc.html :

Chancellor Dollfuss

Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss had authoritrian political attitudes himself. He in fact modeled himself in a small way on both Mussolini and Hitler, Dollfuss renamed the Christian Socialist Party the Fatherland Front. He even began wearing a swastika-like device. To guarantee his authority, he abolished Austria's Constitution. He prohibited the NAZI Party along with all other opposition parties. Dollfus opposed union with Germany, but his actions weakened the democratic parties in Austria. The NAZIS went underground, but continued to gain adherents. After the NAZI seizure of power, Dollfuss was hopefull that NAZI infighting would delay Hitler from focusing on Austria. The Night of the Long Nights and the execution of R

 

[_MB_]

2.R

 

[mat69]

If you look at it Austria is more a melting pot than Germany. You only need to look in the telephone book, a lot of Czech, Slovak ... (or germanized) names here. One (of the many) reason for this is that at the beginning of the 20th century ~200 000 iirc Czechs were drawn ot the Austria main land as cheap working force. These people stayed and intermixed.

So the ethical background is different for a lot of people MistaCreepy.

@MAXX von Beck worked on that before the ware even started.

@Murphy they had only different leaders becaus of the Ausgleich, before that there was no Doublemonarchy.

 

[Heldentod]

QUICK SOMEONE PHONE THE POLICE

the text claims to be scientific, you can expect the author to do enough research to spell the name correctly

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I'm glad this has been a fruitful discussion of the Ost.

 

[Peter.Steele]

oh god -.-

its the same as saying australia is part of the US -.-

No. Not really. It's the same as saying that Australia is part of the British Commonwealth. Because, you know, it's true.

Well, actually wood was widely used in WWII aircrafts. British Mosquito even had wooden fuselage structure. And it was not that crap...

And not only wood, but many other materials than aircraft metal, duraluminium, were used. For example Hurricanes

 

[mat69]

No. Not really. It's the same as saying that Australia is part of the British Commonwealth. Because, you know, it's true.

Says the one who apparantly does know nothing on that topic.
No, it's not the same. Go read up on Austria, but well forget that wikipedia "source", as you can see it's hardly two pages long. The topic is more complicated than that.
Yeah, and before I forget: I won't link you to homepages where I think the information is better presented and more detailed, well because I got my information from history books on the Habsburger, on Austria ...

 

[Peter.Steele]

Says the one who apparantly does know nothing on that topic.
No, it's not the same. Go read up on Austria, but well forget that wikipedia "source", as you can see it's hardly two pages long. The topic is more complicated than that.
Yeah, and before I forget: I won't link you to homepages where I think the information is better presented and more detailed, well because I got my information from history books on the Habsburger, on Austria ...

Hm. How much do you know about the 16th/17th/18th centuries?

'Cuz, see, before Bismark, there really was no 'Germany' as a whole. It was 'The Germanies.' And Austria was one of 'The Germanies.'

 

[mat69]

Hm. How much do you know about the 16th/17th/18th centuries?

'Cuz, see, before Bismark, there really was no 'Germany' as a whole. It was 'The Germanies.' And Austria was one of 'The Germanies.'

And what do you want to say by that? Those "Germanies" as you dub them have hardly something to do with the "Germany" today.

And I do know that there was no "Germany" - before Austria fought against Prussia - that is exactly why saying that Austria is as much part of Germany as Australia is of the Commonwealth is rubbish.
I'd say nothing if you'd describe periods of time, but you did not. You simply generalized.

Well how much I know? Shall I measure it in the metric system?

 

[studabakahawk]

waffen SS units in eastern front

waffen SS units in eastern front

Hi Id like to suggest that Leon Derregels book "Campaign in Russia the Waffen SS on the Eastern Front".
It is a soldiers perspective of the war from the trenches. It gives very nice detail of the actual combat situations these All volunteer units partook in the campaign against Bolshivism.(Their words)
It shows that certain Waffen units, (Walloon,Viking) were very well armed and almost fanitically led, did very well against very large Russian attacks.
The superior numbers and vast logistical advantage simply ground down the German units , no matter what their political ideology.(SS, Whermact).
Another good read is Mellentines "Panzer Battles", it is a Grand view of the war , as he was a staff officer with Rommel in Africia, and then went to Russia.Of course Heinz Gudarian's " Panzer Commander ", is required as well.
B.H. Lidell Hart, was credited by the German War collage as giving them the formula for Blitzkreig style warfare with the Panzer Glocks that swept advisaries off the board till late 1942, so you shoud read Harts " History of WW2".
There are some insights in there that the History channel hasnt come up with yet.
Ive said this before in these forums when this game first came out, this part of the war was a Magnificent Tragedy, fought day in and day out by vast armies. Built of incredibly brave men, thrown against each other in an unforgiving Wilderness, (To this day Most of their agony went unknown, and is still a footnote in history.) Vast beyond imagination,Violent, more so than any generation in the future should have to endure.
Armies equipped with the very best killing MACHINES that their generation could assemble. Prosfessional soldiers and Officers galvanized to destroy each other.
Every morning these men woke up put on their rifles and went to WAR for 5 years!!! We as a nation could not endure this kind of Carnage. Godwilling mankind itself wont have to endure this hideous Butchery everagain.
But gentleman, through this amazing game,(the best and most addictive ive ever played) we can strap on a Tank, and drive over that hill and stand shoulder to shoulder with those Ghosts who did this for real.
And i just want to say thank you to everyone who help make this and all the guys ive fought with and against out there in the 'cyber stepps'.

 

[Zoring]

Also, fun fact about Mosquitos: they were the first Allied aircraft to bomb Berlin. Right in the middle of a speech by Hitler about how Berlin could never be bombed. And the first bomb killed the Berlin Zoo's elephant.

Nope, none of that is true, it was bombed in 1940 well before the Mosquito was in action. People don't tend to give speeches in the middle of the night and they say that about every single war since the plane was invented.

 

[Peter.Steele]

Nope, none of that is true, it was bombed in 1940 well before the Mosquito was in action. People don't tend to give speeches in the middle of the night and they say that about every single war since the plane was invented.

Hm.

I'll have to see if I can find the source for that story ... it was in a book somewhere.

 

[[RMC]Riggs]

Ok, here's one no one has tackled yet:

Russian Cavalry:

Myth, Russians would charge their cavalry at tanks. Main source was the picture of the Cavalry intermingled with German PIIIs.....

Truth: The Tanks had come into the Cavalry encampment(im currently looking for my original source for this, but it is in several books).

Other truths about Russian Cavalry:

Used in Night Combat
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ntcombat/index.html

Russian Cavalry
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/cavalry/index.html

 

[[VFD]HH]

The general myth that cav was useless by WWII was largely refuted by Russia's great usage of Cav in areas tanks and other mech could not venture.

The tiger was not the greatest tank, it cost to much and it broke down to much. Tanks are first and foremost a way to get safely from point A to point B (best done en masse) and then an infantry support tool...and then tank killers. There are much economically cheaper and better ways to kill a tank, and in respect to everything tanks have to do (as well as being mechanically easy to build/mantain and ergonomically easy to use) the tiger was a complete failure. So it had good successes against allied tanks, so what? Still was a waste of resources compared to the versatile pz4s, t34s, and shermans.

I think the biggest myth I would just say is 1942, just the whole year from beginning to end in general. We can start about different aspects of the winter, then we can go straight to the big German operations in the Southern front. Go into the many stalingrad myths. Go into the almost complete lack of knowledge of Operation Mars, a Russian attack on army group center that was on the same scale as Stalingrad, and a total failure.
We can then look at the follow up.
Add the new tank additions to the German army, lots of **** happening on other fronts, etc.

We could spend 10 pages busting very relevant and in the long run of the front, way more important questions, than anything else we could tackle, such as the 1337ness of the Waffen-SS.

I think the biggest myth I've ever heard concerning WWII are all about D-Day. I've heard (plenty of times)
1) The Germans never saw D-Day coming and were completly unprepared. (laughable really)
2) D-Day won the war.
3) D-Day was the biggest thing EVA in the history of warfare!
etc.