More gore and other unpleasent content for RO?

[Murphy]

Thank you.

 

[Atomskytten]

You forgot a second possibility: Maybe I have been around here long enough so I have seen the exact same discussion multiple times and participated a lot in them and the consens always was that we don't want to have warcrimes in a game. It took a few pages for the sickos to realize it but eventuelly they got it and if not they at least accepted the fact that we will thankfully never ever see that kind of stuff in the game.
Look at the poll - I am not the only one whose opinion differs from yours..

And if there really is no difference between killing a child and an adult, why is there a difference between having sex with 'em?
Because they can't decide for themselves. They are too easy to manipulate. Just watch your beloved "Der Untergang" to see how blind that dumb kid is.
How would you know if I love "Der Untergang" or even if I have watched it? And yes children are very succeptible to manipulation and that is why they were and are used as soldiers in WW2 and in wars today - why should we ignore the tragic fact and crime that children were and are being exploited in such a cruel manner? Ignoring this doesn't make it go away..
The problem isn't to kill them (self-defense), but to even deploy them as soldiers in a warzone. That's a warcrime and we don't want warcrimes in RO.
Every soldier only kills in "self defence" or so they are told so killing Hitlerjugend soldiers should not be a major ethical problem when playing as the Sovjets nor should it be a problem playing a Hitlerjugend killing the Sovjet soldiers who have invaded Germany should it?
The war itself was a crime so warcrimes are already a part of RO.

Of course warcrimes happened. WW2 was chockfull of them. But that's not what I want to see in my game.
Ignorance is such a bliss...No one really wants to see the horrible things that happens so we pretend they don't and thus eases the warmongeres work in starting new wars by accepting words like precision/surgical strike, collatoral damage, illegal enemy combattants etc. etc. to ease our collective guilt from the horrors we ourselves are the direct or indirect cause of.




Tell me how the gameplay would benefit from having to kill children?
I can't see a single benefit that would justify the effort to put them in.
Realism.

So I guess its all about historical accuracy, right? Yes.
If so, why don't you suggest concentration camps, mass rapes and hangings? They were part of the war too.
This is a small unit tactical game not a warcrimes or ethnic cleansing simulator..
What about a mission where you have to get some more jews into a gas chamber because russians are about to attack soon and you want to get the most out of your deathcamp?
What about a mission where you have to hunt down unarmed civilians (played by players) and hang them all within a time limit?
What you state there are political objectives not military ones and thusly not relevant to the scope of this game.
What about a mission were you have to rape all the women of a village while your teammates force their families to watch? Maybe even have a raping minigame?
Not my fancy but perhaps another game: "Warcrimes of WW2" if such a game existed would satisfy such needs..
And don't call me sick, because all of that happened back then!
I haven't called you sick
If you would REALLY care for historical accuracy and if you would REALLY care about NOT painting a pink flower picture of war, then you must want all these things in the game too.
No?

As I stated before RO is clearly a small unit, platoon sized, military objectives FPS and not a warcrimes simulator so why should these attrocious things be present? There is a bloody long way from wanting more realism in the order of introducing WSS, NKVD, Hitlerjugend units, with matching uniforms, and more realistic gore to including genocide and the depraved political objectives of war criminals and I must say that I think you overinterpret the content and intention of this thread/poll..

 

[ImNotRyan]

I don't know why I got into Red Orchestra.
I played team fortress classic up untill 2006. Still do.

I've sickened myself with the horrors of that war, and all wars before and since. All they entail. Forget the rapes, murders, tortures and you still have the lost dreams and damaged souls of the people fortunate enough to avoid it physically.

Like I said I don't know why Red Orchestra appealed to me, but involving Hitler Youth, or the kind of smashed-in-head gore that makes you feel sorry for the human race - and I'd quit in a heartbeat. I've seen it in pictures, and I've seen it out there in the streets, images that don't ever leave. Like a girl - you never get over them, you just go longer between remembering them, and whenever you do, all those feelings come back and you just feel pitiful.

If you wish to see more gore, go to EMT/Paramedic school and get right out there doing it. If you want historical accuracy, open a book, watch period footage.

Have children before you assume their impact on the players of this game.
View horrific wounds or people actually dying in misery before you decide to include it in this game. For some people the extent of these aspects isn't just whats on the screen - it brings up emotions from our lives. I play video games to escape.

The developers have done a very good job so far of striking that balance between realism and taste. I respect their decision to err on the side of taste.

 

[Oldih]

As I stated before RO is clearly a small unit, platoon sized, military objectives FPS

Yet only thing we still is just inviduals running around and not acting like a squad nor a platoon at all.

 

[Atomskytten]

I don't know why I got into Red Orchestra.
I played team fortress classic up untill 2006. Still do.

I've sickened myself with the horrors of that war, and all wars before and since. All they entail. Forget the rapes, murders, tortures and you still have the lost dreams and damaged souls of the people fortunate enough to avoid it physically.

Like I said I don't know why Red Orchestra appealed to me, but involving Hitler Youth, or the kind of smashed-in-head gore that makes you feel sorry for the human race - and I'd quit in a heartbeat. I've seen it in pictures, and I've seen it out there in the streets, images that don't ever leave. Like a girl - you never get over them, you just go longer between remembering them, and whenever you do, all those feelings come back and you just feel pitiful.

If you wish to see more gore, go to EMT/Paramedic school and get right out there doing it. If you want historical accuracy, open a book, watch period footage.

Have children before you assume their impact on the players of this game.
View horrific wounds or people actually dying in misery before you decide to include it in this game. For some people the extent of these aspects isn't just whats on the screen - it brings up emotions from our lives. I play video games to escape.

The developers have done a very good job so far of striking that balance between realism and taste. I respect their decision to err on the side of taste.

I agree with you and not having these things in game wont make me stop playing RO but I am a realism freak and therefore I want the maximum of realism when it comes to physcial effects and historical accuracy.
Adding WSS units etc. etc. may or may not attract nazis and racists but in my experience they are already present in the game in some numbers and especially on certain servers where phrases such as "Heil Hitler" and "Sieg Heil" flows openly and freely from some of the players without anyone saying anything so I don't think that adding these units will change anything with regards to the numbers of nazis and racists playing the game.
One other thing as an argument against not including these units is that ordinary Wehrmacht and Sovjet( in particular by the units in the fight for Berlin) units also commited warcrimes

 

[Rahgdol]

With nearly 7 Billion oppinions in the world, what's one more?

We all have different life experiences, different views, likes, and dis-likes that constitutes the way we react and behave.

My life experience has created within me the propensity to not encourage such additions in a game...and, from that experience, adding such to the game would not be the deciding factor on whether I would forget the atrocities of the past.

There are plenty of organizations out there adding to the nearly 7 billions oppinions in the world to make it so that no one forgets.

My life experience has also given the notion that most arguments are futile in the face of nearly 7 Billion Oppinions.

MOD it if you want it.

 

[Atomskytten]

Yet only thing we still is just inviduals running around and not acting like a squad nor a platoon at all.

All too true..

 

[2M|Bivoj]

I miss an option "WSS and NKVD only"

Nay to HJ (as well as nay to civilians, KZ prisoners, KZ guards, etc.), gore is fine as is now, but I miss WSS and NKVD (or simply more variable and realistic uniform models/skins)

And I must agree with Atomskytten in one thing: "I am a realism freak" - so do I
One argument against "waffen-ss skin would atract nazis from whole world to play this game":
In mod days, there were w-ss models/skins (as well as NKVD ones) in RO and I did not notice significant number of nazis ingame...

 

[Soup]

These things would be great in a realistic game, but, newsflash, RED ORCHESTRA IS NOT A REALISTIC GAME. It's an arcade shoebox shooter with some realistic features. Despite what TWI has tried to shove down our throats, this game is designed to be over-balanced so that it can be played on a competitive level similar to counter-strike. These features are pointless in RO.

 

[Heldentod]

adding more gore and WSS,NKVD etc. to RO would give it an even more realistic touch. sadly we won

 

[Murphy]

Look at the poll - I am not the only one whose opinion differs from yours..

Well, take a second look and start to count... Now subtract all of those who just voted for #1 because they want summer camo or Waffen SS and see what's left.

How would you know if I love "Der Untergang" or even if I have watched it?

You definately should both watch and love it because it is an excellent albeit depressing film and since you care so much for realism I would say that it should suit you. Watch it! I can only recommend it.

why should we ignore the tragic fact and crime that children were and are being exploited in such a cruel manner? Ignoring this doesn't make it go away..

Ignorance is such a bliss...No one really wants to see the horrible things that happens so we pretend they don't and thus eases the warmongeres work in starting new wars by accepting words like precision/surgical strike, collatoral damage, illegal enemy combattants etc. etc. to ease our collective guilt from the horrors we ourselves are the direct or indirect cause of.

1. I can savely state that I am not, directly or indirectly the cause of any warcrime what-so-ever.
2. I never said we should ignore this. I just said I don't want it in this game.
3. If you want to fight warmongers and warcrimes they might propagate, then don't advertise Hitleryouth as a potent fighting force in a video game.
If you really wanted what you claim to want (fight ignorance etc.) then this isn't the way to go. What people need to see to build an opinion about child-soldiers is a psychologically believable movie/novel/play about members of that group and/or about their enemies and their problems, their thoughts, their psycholigical defects.
The difference between what you want and what you claim to want is about as gaping as the difference between a French relationship drama and a German porno.

Tell me how the gameplay would benefit from having to kill children?
I can't see a single benefit that would justify the effort to put them in.

Realism.

A button to take a crap would be realistic too, as would be a mouse-gesture to trigger messy nose-cleaning measures and I'm sure both occured more often than Hitleryouth units saw combat, but those aren't in the game. Guess why: Because they add absolutely nothing to the gameplay.

So I guess its all about historical accuracy, right? Yes.
If so, why don't you suggest concentration camps, mass rapes and hangings? They were part of the war too.

This is a small unit tactical game not a warcrimes or ethnic cleansing simulator..

I didn't ask to add managing features for concentration camps rivaling those of "Railroad Tycoon" or "Sim City 2000". In fact I gave you a few examples of possible missions with great objectives that can be done by "small units".

See one quote below:

What about a mission where you have to get some more jews into a gas chamber because russians are about to attack soon and you want to get the most out of your deathcamp?
What about a mission where you have to hunt down unarmed civilians (played by players) and hang them all within a time limit?

What you state there are political objectives not military ones and thusly not relevant to the scope of this game.

Huh? You think politicians made a field trip to poland to rape or hang a few people? Nonsense. Those are crimes commited by military groups, especially the Waffen SS which you desperately want in game for "historical accuracy".
Sorry, but that's slightly unbelievable. On the one hand, you want the Waffen SS in the game because people need to know about it, and it would soooooo wrong and ignorant to leave them out but on the other hand you want them to appear as a regular fighting unit and leave out what brought them their terrible reputation.

What about a mission were you have to rape all the women of a village while your teammates force their families to watch? Maybe even have a raping minigame?

Not my fancy but perhaps another game: "Warcrimes of WW2" if such a game existed would satisfy such needs..

[sarcasm]Oh oh oh. Not your fancy? Why not? Its just a game, isn't it?[/sarcasm]
Speaking of "Warcrimes of WW2": That's exactly where your Hitleryouthplayermodel might be of use.



btw. Next time you want to start a massive quoting massacre, please quote my babbling you want to comment on individually. If its just one huge block of text inside a quote I can't quote it and I have to copy it all individually. Its better if you quote individual statements like I did in this post, or use colors like you did but inside the post. Not in a quote. Thank you in advance.

 

[Madeyes]

no I do not play RO because it is WW2 game. I play it because of its physics = running, stamina, IS, etc... So if uniforms will be orange vs. green I DO NOT CARE, if there will be no single drop of blood I DO NOT CARE. I am not playing this to kill somebody but to defeat somebody in game, to cap some zone - and again I DO NOT CARE if it is realistic 1:1 modeled area.

so sorry... I still think that requesting more gore or things like children-enemy is just sick. I do not say you / anybody is sick.

Well i've heard some crap in my time but i have to congratulate you. Pick up your trophy on your way out to your Organic Celery farm.

 

[Basil]

As said, this is a tactical scale front line fighting simulation, so I don't see the point why there should be KZ guarding or hanging civilians or whatever. WSS comprised of nearly million soldiers, and some of the most motivated and best equipped forces the Germans had. Sure they commited vast number of crimes also (on the other hand, who didn't?), but their contributions to the front line war cannot be undermined. I'd say that leaving them out and playing in a nice little fantasy world where war is honorable is almost dangerous since it might give a very wrong impression to some.

And what comes to modern nazis and them being attracted by the game, well, I don't see any problem with that as long as they keep their mouths shut and play. Nazi ideology is in the hands of a bunch of uneducated monkeys and can be considered dead. The Third Reich and the ideology with it was totally defeated over 60 years ago and the world and especially Europe is a whole different place now. It's not like anyone today would become a nazi when he sees a swastika in a tail of Bf-109 (Il-2) or plays a WW2 FPS in the ranks of WSS. Old nazis and their victims are getting fewer and fewer, and I think it's starting to be the time to start watching WW2 from historical, neutral and accurate perspective. Most of the people nowadays didn't see the war, but it was their parents, grandparents, or parents of grandparents did. Still the subject seems to be very emotional to lots of people (including me). I think we should let go of our onesided prejudices and emotions that have nothing to do with us and face the history as it was.

 

[Murphy]

As said, this is a tactical scale front line fighting simulation, so I don't see the point why there should be KZ guarding or hanging civilians or whatever. WSS comprised of nearly million soldiers, and some of the most motivated and best equipped forces the Germans had. Sure they commited vast number of crimes also (on the other hand, who didn't?), but their contributions to the front line war cannot be undermined. I'd say that leaving them out and playing in a nice little fantasy world where war is honorable is almost dangerous since it might give a very wrong impression to some.

Am I the only one who sees a screaming contradiction here?

Also, modern Nazis are far from being dead, unforntunately. I don't want to go into detail in this thread, but saying that Nazis aren't a danger anymore is ignorant. No offense.

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

This is going nowhere and since i am one of the tripwire people who give rat *** about realism (gamebalance is simply to tempting for us), i am closing this.