3D & Animation T34/57

[Solo4114]

Most people don't know squat about WWII tanking, tank doctrines, or (more importantly) combined arms. They can spout statistics about how this tank could penetrate that tank all day long, but put them in a practical engagement where they have a mixed force and they're baffled.

I agree that mobility, deployment, and maneuver are the real keys in WWII tank combat, but most players don't get that. That's why heavy tanking appeals to them. They roll up in their pillbox, blast away at the enemy tank, take multiple hits themselves, and finally smoke the other guy or get smoked.

Early war engagements wouldn't go like that (I'd hope). You'd either not be able to harm the enemy, or whoever got the first shot in would win. Plus you'd be WAY more vulnerable to infantry, and therefore would need more infantry around you.


Now, all that said, I think some players DO get the idea of combined arms. On GOOD rounds of Berezina, the Germans will use their Pz IIIs to flank effectively and hit the KV-1Ss in the side, while the Pz IV F1s will sweep the line with HE and MG rounds.

That makes me think that early war maps with light tanks would actually work IF they were combined arms maps.

I also have to think that, if we had pure tank vs. tank maps with more room to maneuver AND longer visibility, we'd start to see pretty different tactics used. The Russians would (usually) have to rely on mobility, while the Germans would be working on long-range gunnery. Cavalry tanks like the BT-7 would actually serve a useful role, as would scout tanks like the T-60 or a Pz II.

On the other hand, it could just devolve into the usual "drive, park, shoot, die" affair, rather than a battle of wits as much as a battle of armor/armament.

 

[Slyk]

I think Solo is 100% correct here. Mappers foremost have must not over-tank a map if they want effective CA where the maps won't turn into tank vs tank battles with a little infantry support on the side. Two or three tank per side would be a maximum and then a mix of light/heavy would be a good idea.

 

[Oldih]

Another issue with the fact besides the "you guys don't know how tank combat really works" - idea (which is pretty much correct, as Solo said), is the fact we can't portray any 'true' units logically ingame.

Like we can't have a tank platoon assisting a infantry unit, that we have a leader tank and two other tanks and they are in radio touch (presuming they have radio) all the time and co-ordinate with their moves if plausible, not just "hey let's go there and snipe them all darn I got hole well my tank damage indicator is yellow no harm done yet." Besides, the game ranges we have are pretty much designed for combined arms - which does work in RO in general. But pure tank combat is just so silly, that it's like a turkey shoot with overdone armours and such if we speak by the sake of realism.

Another issue which makes even 'realistic' tanking quite impossible in FPS style game is the fact you can't force morale in game.

Let's pretend we have a StuG in perfect 'ambush' position with great line of sight and no-one knows where it is - atleast not the enemies. Now the StuG fires the shell in middle of a T-34 tank platoon which does not have any idea about our 'lil hunter. Let's pretend the distance is like 500-600m. Now also, let's pretend the shell hits the commander tank, kills the tank platoon leader (the tank commander) and the let's say the turret got half disabled.

So, our platoon is without a commander, they don't have any ****ing clue where they were shot at and even if the other crewmembers might be experienced, they would panic on the spot and only thing they would try to do is to lay smoke (well, I dunno does T-34\76 have smoke shells issued generally) and\or tryh to find cover ASAP before someone gets shot again. Since it takes less than 10 seconds to get another shell fired and let's pretend it hits again the commander tank, this time in the hull, and it kills the loader inside. At this point the tank has two major holes, turret half-disabled (aka let's say it barely turns anymore, so turret ring damaged in other words), the upper side hull has a hole which just splatted our loader to hell and only guys left are gunner and driver.

At this point they would bail out. No matter what you say "but it has just two holes come on" - what's the point standing inside the tank when it's pure turkey shooting target and you just lost your commander and such?

And if we presume there is no real cover in the area (with the expection where StuG is) - it wouldn't take long to hit the other tanks as well, presuming the StuG gunner is experienced and such.

If there is some cover, like forest or some random scattered trees, the T-34s would immediatly seek cover from there, panic and be shocked for a while and then figure out what to do. Since in good cover and such low-profile tank as StuG (even some other tank like PzIVF2 or H could do the job) and such ranges, and the element of suprise - you can't just "hey they shot from there let's shoot back." unless you can spot immediatly where it was fired (which I doubt). Generally, even if you are not really ambushed it is easy to panic in a situation like that. If you don't know where you are being shot at you don't want to stand there as a nice target screaming "PICK ME! PICK ME!". What you are not aware of frightens.


That is the biggest problem why we can't ever have even realistic tank combat in RO. You can't force morale ingame.



But on the other hand, T-34\57 does sound interesting addition in it's own way. Nice to see something else in design than 'good' old Konigstigers and such

 

[[VFD]HH]

I always wonder, if we made tanks a little bit more real to life in the number of penetrating hits they can take (depending completly on where they are hit and luck, rather than between 1 and 3, 90% of the time 2) if this would make tank combat more real to life, because unless your an experienced gunner (which btw they should also make somewhat harder and not have the super-visible shell) if people would realize its better to keep their mobility, or just be immobile even longer when they see an enemy tank.