Possible to make hip shooting worse??

[KrazyKraut]

I like the iron sights and the state of our current hip shot accuracy as is. I always do both. If I have the time to set up with the iron sights I will, but if I want to clear a room I will run in and steamroll the room and move forward. The realism argument doesn't really make any sense here because to change where the bullets go randomly does not hold with the realistic nature of the games weapons, and to disable the hip shot is not an valid solution based on realism. Soldiers are taught to fire their weapons from the ready position that means not in iron sights. Honestly this is not a big issue to most people. and until we really see something broken here it will most likely be left as is.

-Sabu

The thing is: You run into a room spraying your weapon means you die in real life. Unless you are really lucky. That's why no modern armies do that anymore.

I don't think hipshooting accuracy is bad when STANDING. But jogging around and hipshooting ON THE MOVE is way too easy and there is no denying that. Especially with the semi auto rifles.

 

[hansgering2]

what, so we will all be playing unrealisticly? there is nothing in RO i hate more then smg-wielding players just running around gungho rambostyle. Since RO tries to be as realistic as possible, and you wont see soldiers going rambo in real life, IMO there should be done something more about hipshooting.
i have no idea what, but thats why im not a gamedeveloper.

Try it... "Ramboing" irl aint much of a problem..
What about those brit sten-gunners from ww2? I was told that the best way to clear a room full of enemies was to: Kick down the room and hipshoot in one long spray. =S

 

[aag567]

I don't see what's wrong with it, in fact, you should be able to hip shoot when sprinting, although it would reduce your stamina since swinging your arms would increase your heart rate (atleast that's what I was told).

 

[Jono]

That is your personal opinion. Repeating it all day doesn't change that.

Different people = different opinions. You have to live with that.

I do. I love to hear people out and take other people's viewpoints.

I also like to inform other people of my opinion and how I believe that theirs is wrong. Of course my beliefs are subject to change as any opinion should be.

It might be the second time i have said that on these forums and i've been on these forums for more than a day, I'm sure. So we can pretty much say that i dont repeat it all day- FACT.

I do live with it.-FACT

I don't believe RO is heavily dosed with realism.-OPINION

However, in most opinions (that have been thought out for more than 10 seconds) there is always some of that lovely fact juice. You think I'm completely wrong? Therefore you are stating that RO is as WW2-realistic you can get, which i doubt you are. So my post must have a grain of truth in it.

However that is an OPINION

p.s May i just state that it is not a personal opinion, i actually stole the phrasing of the "Ro is a quite fast paced..." from someone else's post. Meaning someone must share this OPINION.

 

[Tairos]

Hipshooting is a skill, some people can do it well, and some can't. IMO, it's probably best to keep it the way it is because there's really nothing unrealistic about it.

It's unrealistic when you can shoot from the hip while moving in full automatic without having your aim severely thrown off. The gun should sway like crazy while running.

 

[arnold]

its a slow jogging no fast running, there is some sway and u are not very accurate spraying while jogging. i have no prablem with hipshooting at all. it is simply not to good from a realism standpoint. u can move quite fast while fireing irl, and u can even be accurate if u have perfect bodycontrol. limiting peoples freedom to something that u think is realistic is bull****.
what i want to make hipshooting less annoying is more freedom. i want the possibility to move fast in a high ready position. everyone can do this irl and its the most effective way to carry ur gun if u think that u will have to shoot in the next seconds. the easiest way to implement this into the game
would just be to allow people to move faster with ironsight up.

 

[[Mad_Murdock]]

i dont know where all these suggestions saying you cant accurately hit something 6m away while running are coming from, so i decided to try an experiment.

Taking a MN91/30 i thought i'd run around with it a bit and see what i can find out, turns out you really dont knock it about much while running because the weight combined with the way your arms work, they act a lot like a shock absorber so the movement of your gun while running is actually fairly smooth and easy to control, even with a heavy rifle.

Now my experience comes from paintball mostly, and all i can say is that it is fairly easy to hipshoot while running at the ranges we are talking about 0-10m.

ALso, it seems that most ppl refer to the SMGs when talking about this and to tell you the truth, thats really what an SMG is designed for, clearing rooms and hosing down stuff at close range.

As for recoil being a factor, the PPSh weighs 4 kilos, (thats about 10lb for the unfortunates)
, and with a recoil somewhere between a .22LR and a 9mm parabellum, that isnt much of a problem.

 

[PermenentMarker]

Nothing wrong with hipshooting.

Its not easy.

Its useful in close range.

from far... its possible to get better... such as 30% hit ratio after a lot of practice... but I see it possible for real life too

My argument is mostly on bolt rifles.
You miss, you maybe screwed.

 

[Tairos]

its a slow jogging no fast running, there is some sway and u are not very accurate spraying while jogging. i have no prablem with hipshooting at all. it is simply not to good from a realism standpoint. u can move quite fast while fireing irl, and u can even be accurate if u have perfect bodycontrol. limiting peoples freedom to something that u think is realistic is bull****.
what i want to make hipshooting less annoying is more freedom. i want the possibility to move fast in a high ready position. everyone can do this irl and its the most effective way to carry ur gun if u think that u will have to shoot in the next seconds. the easiest way to implement this into the game
would just be to allow people to move faster with ironsight up.

Well, I do have a "prablem" with it. If I wanted to run and gun, I would play Quake or your no doubt beloved counter strike. And no, you can't fire accurately while moving. Try asking someone who actually knows what he's talking about.
Well the hell though, since allowing you to shoot and SPRINT is so good for "ur" freedom, why not take the freedom to the next step and let us shoot while jumping? Or flying? Limiting our freedom for what I think is realistic is bull****, after all.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Well said. The only way someone could be constantly as accurate while shooting from the hip and on the move is if he moved about as fast as the RO character does when hipshooting the MGs.

The best example for the inacceptable hipshooting (while moving) accuracy are the semi auto rifles. 9/10 times when you see a single enemy <10 metres away the best tactic...

isn't a) bringing up your sights an taking an aimed shot...
isn't b) stopping and hipshooting the guy with 2-3 shots hoping to hit before he does...
no, it's c) "jogging" towards the enemy, strafing in a left to right pattern and emptying your clip into him.

While I'm fine with a) AND b), the fact that c) seems to be the best option often enough is just crap.

 

[arnold]

hey krazy kraut!
you talk about fighting down a bolt action player do you?
but even irl c) is the most effective way.
a) offers the bolt action a very good possibility to shoot you
b) does the same
and c) is much more stress for him. he has only one shot and he will miss if hes not good.
if the game would be perfectly realistic, you would not allways use reallife tactics, because they are not the most effective ones irl.

and about hte hipshoot accuracy:
i know what im talking about, and it is possible to hit while slow jogging at close distances. ever been is a circus? there are people that do more crazy stuff than pointing a stick in a special direction while running.

again: what i want is a realistic alternative to hipshooting, namely faster moving with ironsight up to simulate a high ready position.

mfg Arnold
and sorry for my bad english

 

[Funker42]

Personally, I think it should only be possible to hip shoot in the direction you are moving since humans aren't that coordinated to aim and shoot in opposite or different directions than the direction you are running.

Secondly, if you were running backwards and hip shooting an automatic weapon you basically are going to knock yourself over backwards with your body momentum and the recoil.

With that in mind, I think it would be more realistic to have a different mode of moving and shooting since your eyes, arms, and feet work independently but tied in together.

Lets say I burst into a room with a PPsh1 at full sprint. Sure it will be fine if I burst straigh ahead, but if I try to shoot someone 90 degrees to the left or right of me, not only do I have to turn my hands, but also my entire body because I simply could not twist my upper torso 90 degrees not could I simply lay the gun across my chest.

Of course with the RO engine (and most other FPS games) when you turn you are theoretically turning your entire body (since most of us aren't lucky enough to have head tracking IR systems or VR goggles), but if you did that while running you would have to stomp your foot down and pivot on that.

During that time your entire body is moving with momentum and it would be very difficult to aim and perhaps attempt to re-sprint in that new direction.

In the real world we would most likely stop moving at that point to get a better aim at the target or keep shooting, but we would at least pause due the fact we can't twist our bodies like most FPS games potray.

So I don't think hipshooting should be more inaccurate, but rather turning should cause an immediate slowdown to momentum and cause a great deal of gunsway. If your target is dead ahead then you should be fine... But humans cannot sprint and turn on a dime like they do now.

 

[Boz]

Look, hip shooting is real, it can be done and has been replicated in game. It may need tweaking though. To move it more towards RL implications. In RL using your sights is your best option, period, 100% of the time. It gives you your best chance to hit what you are aiming at. No military force in the world teaches "hip shooting" as a viable technique. "hip-shooting" is a desperate act usualy reserved for situations where there is no other choice, essentially you got caught with your pants down holding "mein teil" so you spray and pray.

What needs to be tweaked is to make it so that "hipping" is not reliable enough and will not be the 1st option a person goes to. Not much tweaking is neccessary, it is pretty good in game as it is. Spraying with an automatic gun is pretty easy, with so many rounds coming out, it is fairly easy to "walk" your shots onto a target. Not enough fed back is given to us from the game to see the impact of every shot in the environment, but IRL you would see holes every where around the target and compensate your aim accordingly, but we only get a fraction of that info from the game so you just keep moving and shooting. In CQB, it is pretty effective, as it would be IRL. The problem is your 1st shot or the time that you have to take to correct the shots to the target (unless lucky). The ready target using his sights (if he is skillful with his weapon) should have the advantage as his first shots will be good right off the bat, the "hipper", unless very lucky will be at a disadvantage for some seconds while he compensates his aim.

In real life, when your life is on the line for real, you try very hard to eliminate "lady luck" from any equation. You want to make the outcome absolutly in your favor, so you aim down the sights when ever possible to ensure your shots will be as true as possible. Since this is a game and you will just respawn, why not use a technique that involves luck and some guessing.

In the end, if they never changed the way it is now, it is still way better than most games. We just need to come up with ways that will force players to not hip shoot most of the time with out major changes to the current game play. I can't think of any, but that does not mean that someone out ther does not have a good idea, but for now, "hip shooting" is pretty good they way it is.

 

[SJ_PDSM [FIN]]

Well what i think that should be done to make it as real as possible is to make usb device that actually shoot bullets and kill.. theres no way to force people act completely "real" in a videogame..

what i mean is that ppl use the hip shooting and other stuff in a way that they would never do in a "real" situation because they arent scared of dying all the time.. making it so inaccurate that it would be no use anymore would be very bad and wrong way of trying to fix player behaviour.. hmm maybe some device to give electric shocks when you get hit..

 

[Cnnbs]

There is nothing wrong with hipshots.

Problem is run and gun style hipshots.



Red Orchestra is the only game that does not penalize accuracy for run&gun tactics.

Even in CS:S BF2 and HL accuracy gets worser when you move..In RO it does not.

time needed to ironsight an smg: around half second(that is ok)
Accuracy of an smg with IS :accurate up to 40-50 meters at most.(ok)
Accuracy while strafing and hipshooting same time:same as crouching/standing prone position.(that is ridicolous)

Result:faster arcadish gameplay espeicially in CQB maps,quake/HL style smg fights,both sides strafing some direction while firing,run and gunners gain an unfair advantage against bolt users.

 

[Funker42]

Even in CS:S BF2 and HL accuracy gets worser when you move..In RO it does not.

Now that you mention it... Rainbow 6 was a biggie on this. You could even see a meter of accuracy rising and falling depending if you were moving or not around the cross hairs.

 

[Reddog]

Ok I will site an example here for you ladies saying it is impossible to hipshoot on the move and that it was never done, it's from the book 'KOKODA' by Peter Fitzsimons.

There would afterwards be much debate as to precisely what occurred in Bruce Kingsbury's mind at that moment-whether he was operating within the realms of conscious thought, or simply acting out of staggering, instinctive courage. What he did do became seared deep into the memory of every Australian soldier within cooee who saw it, and they were many.

Firing from the hip, Kingsbury kept charging down the hill, firing at the exhausted Japanese soldiers coming up the hill and scattering them as he went. whenever a gun was raised against him, he somehow seemed to be able to get off accurate shots before the Japs could do him any damage. To the observers, it almost seemed as if the bullets must be bouncing off him, so suicidal did his actions seem, and yet inspired by it many of the Australian soldiers charged after him and added their own withering fire to Bruce's. Within perhaps forty-five seconds, it was all but over. Some thirty Japanese had been taken out of commission, and the potential hole in the Australian lines had been blocked. There was little Japanese resistance left on that part of the hillside, and many of the soldiers had turned tail and run back into the jungle in the face of this madman.

29th August, 1942, Battle of Isurava

He was killed shortly afterwards by a snipers bullet as he changed magazines, and was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross for this action. Charging down a hill hip shooting a light machine gun over open ground, killing a lot of Japanese and breaking their penetration.

You people who say hipshooting on the move with a light sub machine gun is impossible are full of ****.

 

[Boz]

Yeah, but he's dead? Never to hip shoot again. Never repeated by his fellow soldiers. They stood and watched the specticle and then as all things told or reported on verbally, the watchers most likely pumped their stories up to make it more heroic. Even inspiringly mythic to encourage others and reduce the pain of the loss of one of their own, to justify if you will, his actions. These are rare occurances in battle, possible to a point, but desperate none the less. In RO people go to it far more often then you would ever see IRL. Thus the genesis of the thread.

 

[Funker42]

29th August, 1942, Battle of Isurava

He was killed shortly afterwards by a snipers bullet as he changed magazines, and was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross for this action. Charging down a hill hip shooting a light machine gun over open ground, killing a lot of Japanese and breaking their penetration.

You people who say hipshooting on the move with a light sub machine gun is impossible are full of ****.

1. Japanese did not have sub-machine guns and were basically using WWI era rifles against his
2. The Japanese might have been expecting hand to hand combat
3. Japanese were renowned for not understanding trench warfare, infiltration tactics, cover, standing too close together, or covering fire at least early in the war in 1942 (until 1944 when they figured out Banzai charges weren't that great tactics wise) and were most likely standing out in the open looking at him blankly.
4. Due to the nature of jungle warfare in Papa New Guinea, the Japanese guns had a high rate of failure due to bad design of the breach and bolt and most likely were malfunctioning during his charge (see #1)
5. The Japanese had supply problems in Papa New Guinea and they might have not brought enough ammo with them during this particular event (see #1 and #2)
6. It doesn't look like he made many maneuvering except moving straight forward in which the Japanese were standing directly in front of him
7. He died to a rifleman anyways as one would expect a hipshooter to end up

Had this happened in Europe, he would have stepped out in the open and yelled "Charge!" only to be blipped out by a burst of Mg-42 fire.

 

[Tairos]

hey krazy kraut!
you talk about fighting down a bolt action player do you?
but even irl c) is the most effective way.
a) offers the bolt action a very good possibility to shoot you
b) does the same
and c) is much more stress for him. he has only one shot and he will miss if hes not good.
if the game would be perfectly realistic, you would not allways use reallife tactics, because they are not the most effective ones irl.

and about hte hipshoot accuracy:
i know what im talking about, and it is possible to hit while slow jogging at close distances. ever been is a circus? there are people that do more crazy stuff than pointing a stick in a special direction while running.

again: what i want is a realistic alternative to hipshooting, namely faster moving with ironsight up to simulate a high ready position.

mfg Arnold
and sorry for my bad english

Right... realistic tactics are unrealistic because in your little world, they're not the most effective. Damn, the Pentagon could use such genius as yours to show them the error of their ways after all these years of inefficiency. After all, if they can do it in the controlled environment of a circus, it can certainly be done in a battlefield situation. Your logic is simply inpecable.