Love all the work people are putting into this map. Really kant wait to play it online. Just don't falter in your resolve, SchutzeSepp 
Upvote
0
Level Design Pavlov's House
- Thread starter Trendkill
- Start date
![[TW]Wilsonam](/data/avatars/s/0/10.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
Watch this space for translation (I need to ask Mrs Makhno some of the trickier words )
BTW - warning! I have seen a wartime map which clearly shows a railway line running down between Zabolotniy's and Pavlov's houses. In fact, if you look closely at Russ's map, you can see the line represented by a single pen stroke and that the line terminate by the grain mill riverwards of the houses; 2 terminuses alongside. Also it appears that there is another possible tramline alongside the railway line which curves round to the right and appears to originate from the main tramline across the square.
BTW - some stuff for the tramlines: http://www.redstarblackcross.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=8&pos=6 (if that thing going across the square is a tramline - I believe Russ may have a route map - he could tell you if trams ran across Pl. 9-go Yanvarya.
)BTW - warning! I have seen a wartime map which clearly shows a railway line running down between Zabolotniy's and Pavlov's houses. In fact, if you look closely at Russ's map, you can see the line represented by a single pen stroke and that the line terminate by the grain mill riverwards of the houses; 2 terminuses alongside. Also it appears that there is another possible tramline alongside the railway line which curves round to the right and appears to originate from the main tramline across the square.
BTW - some stuff for the tramlines: http://www.redstarblackcross.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=8&pos=6 (if that thing going across the square is a tramline - I believe Russ may have a route map - he could tell you if trams ran across Pl. 9-go Yanvarya.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
It may be worth comparing the aerial photos: (fireonthevolga one dated August) and SchutzeSepp/Drecks' magnification (much later) with Pavlov's 25 November sketch map and also the map sketch SchutzeSepp posted.
You can see the trench as a dark line bottom on the later photo leading from Pavlov's house.
From Pavlov's sketch:
Small rises and depressions in the terrain are shown which can be confirmed by looking at the photos. The depths of the depressions are also indicated. The map gives contours and heights in meters above sea level. So the terrain can be mapped very accurately. Eg. note the rise (46.8m) between Pavlov's house and the small house west of it, which can also been seen on the later photo.
The trench/tunnel system L-shaped pointing to the left is clearly indicated. It seems that between August and November the buildings above tunnel shown by the foot of the "L" were destroyed? (south of the mill), as they are not on Pavlov's map but show on the August photo.
The front lines and no-man's land are clearly shown: on the left it runs between the two 4-storey buildings seen on the photos.
The dotted lines dated 25 November presumably show Pavlov's team assault routes on that day.
Comparing the symbols on Pavlov's map with the sketch legend SchutzeSepp posted, I would venture that the crescents with arrows indicate heavy machine gun positions/strongpoints, the arrows show AT/heavy caliber guns.
You can see the trench as a dark line bottom on the later photo leading from Pavlov's house.
From Pavlov's sketch:
Small rises and depressions in the terrain are shown which can be confirmed by looking at the photos. The depths of the depressions are also indicated. The map gives contours and heights in meters above sea level. So the terrain can be mapped very accurately. Eg. note the rise (46.8m) between Pavlov's house and the small house west of it, which can also been seen on the later photo.
The trench/tunnel system L-shaped pointing to the left is clearly indicated. It seems that between August and November the buildings above tunnel shown by the foot of the "L" were destroyed? (south of the mill), as they are not on Pavlov's map but show on the August photo.
The front lines and no-man's land are clearly shown: on the left it runs between the two 4-storey buildings seen on the photos.
The dotted lines dated 25 November presumably show Pavlov's team assault routes on that day.
Comparing the symbols on Pavlov's map with the sketch legend SchutzeSepp posted, I would venture that the crescents with arrows indicate heavy machine gun positions/strongpoints, the arrows show AT/heavy caliber guns.
Upvote
0
I think it's very important not to make it too easy for the Germans to get into the bottom storey.
The problem as I saw it with the mod version was that Germans could easily get into it too quickly, there was next to zero fighting around the building at all, and it just became a series of 1 on 1 fire fights until they got a purchase and then it was all choke points up to the top. There was no coherent defense possible because the map made it so easy to get to close quarters grips with one another. The CoD version had exactly the same issue.
I'd set it up like this;
- The first two or so waves of Russians should spawn in the bottom floor or basement of the building with the following waves spawing in the trenches just to the rear.
- The Germans spawn across the square or anywhere at some distance to the building, meaning they have to contend with advancing through a field of fire to get near the place. However they have a Panzer III (or early IV) with HE and maybe a Stug as well plus artillery.
- It should be bloody hard for the Germans to get a purchase in building but not impossible. There should be no molly coddling and unrealistic cover around the place, look at the photos, it was largely dead ground around the building. Make them work with their armour, make them think about the terrain. For example the value of the building across the street as a place to establish a base of fire etc...
- Once the bottom floor is captured then the Germans spawn closer (however tanks still spawn back in the original palce representing more armour moving up). The Russians may also still spawn close in the trenches on their side but be at a disadvantage distance wise to the Germans, meaning you need to counter attack right away. Maybe push them back a little each time the Germans take a floor, and if it's possible it may be a good idea to say have a few of the Russians spawn at the top of the building each wave (probably the officer and a few avto's) while the rest start outside and have to fight in, could be an idea. The idea now is to make it a real hard fight over control of the building and it has to be capped floor by floor, making it tactically valuable for things like retreating upstairs and waiting for your next spawn to regroup before attacking downwards again etc.
- Should the Russians recap the bottom then the Germans are thrown back to their original spawn, the entire buildings cap points will remain open until all are capped by the Germans, at this point they have won. Victory goes to the Russians if they prevent this for the round.
BTW it's a kick arse looking map visually so far.
The problem as I saw it with the mod version was that Germans could easily get into it too quickly, there was next to zero fighting around the building at all, and it just became a series of 1 on 1 fire fights until they got a purchase and then it was all choke points up to the top. There was no coherent defense possible because the map made it so easy to get to close quarters grips with one another. The CoD version had exactly the same issue.
I'd set it up like this;
- The first two or so waves of Russians should spawn in the bottom floor or basement of the building with the following waves spawing in the trenches just to the rear.
- The Germans spawn across the square or anywhere at some distance to the building, meaning they have to contend with advancing through a field of fire to get near the place. However they have a Panzer III (or early IV) with HE and maybe a Stug as well plus artillery.
- It should be bloody hard for the Germans to get a purchase in building but not impossible. There should be no molly coddling and unrealistic cover around the place, look at the photos, it was largely dead ground around the building. Make them work with their armour, make them think about the terrain. For example the value of the building across the street as a place to establish a base of fire etc...
- Once the bottom floor is captured then the Germans spawn closer (however tanks still spawn back in the original palce representing more armour moving up). The Russians may also still spawn close in the trenches on their side but be at a disadvantage distance wise to the Germans, meaning you need to counter attack right away. Maybe push them back a little each time the Germans take a floor, and if it's possible it may be a good idea to say have a few of the Russians spawn at the top of the building each wave (probably the officer and a few avto's) while the rest start outside and have to fight in, could be an idea. The idea now is to make it a real hard fight over control of the building and it has to be capped floor by floor, making it tactically valuable for things like retreating upstairs and waiting for your next spawn to regroup before attacking downwards again etc.
- Should the Russians recap the bottom then the Germans are thrown back to their original spawn, the entire buildings cap points will remain open until all are capped by the Germans, at this point they have won. Victory goes to the Russians if they prevent this for the round.
BTW it's a kick arse looking map visually so far.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
"Some of our comrades died, not in the building we were defending, but on the way there. We, settling into our fortress, dug deep (man-height) trenches running 200 metres back to the Battalion CP. These trenches helped us to evacuate to the rear, and then across the Volga, the civilians who had been hiding in the basement.
In front of the house was situated a petrol storage building made of cement. It would be great cover but how to reach it when every metre to it was in a killing zone? It was risky work to reach it without being discovered. Our garrison started working hard on digging an underground route to that building, breaks for relaxation were not possible. We took soldiers from their fighting posts, had them dig the tunnel and then straight back to the fighting. This work we did.
Behind the house, about 30 metres away, was a manhole leading into sewers - we dug another underground path to that."
BTW - Further evidence I have seen tells that there definitely WAS a railway line running between Zabolotniy's and Pavlov's house and also that there was something looking very much a tramline going across the square.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
I think now is a good time to mention that I have every confidence in Sepp's ability to do this landmark battle justice with his mapping skills. If it were not a mapper of his calibre doing this map I would fear another half-baked 'it's got a house in it so it's Pavlov's House' map.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Yes, this evidence is also be supported by what seems to be the uprights for the overhead tram lines still standing - circled below:
Upvote
0
Those are more likely connected with the railway as they go from west to east. They more likely than not would not be standing at the time of the battle, anyways.
Here is a schematic view of the building from the direction of Zabolotniy's house, based on a photo I cannot release, unfortunately.
This is prior to the end (1st Podyezd) being blown off, so it shows 4 podyezdi or entrances. Please note that each podyezd was self-contained and not connected to its neighbours internally when the building was built. By this I am saying that I am 99% sure that there were no transverse corridors running the entire length of the building - unless in the basement. For each podyezd there would be a central flight of stairs with maybe 4 small flats (or possibly 2) per floor. Also note that the ground floor was raised, meaning that the basement ceiling would be slightly above ground level.
It is also worth noting that there were high rectangular windows or recesses up the staircase - this is unusual for smaller soviet buildings imo - allowing, as it does, the luxury of a non-dingy stairwell.
By the time of the battle many interior walls and probably a good proportion of the floors would be out. The rest would prolly have mouseholes for the movement of troops and ammo. There were also internal chimney stacks going up just either side of the stairwells and towards this side of the centre of the building. They were narrow rectangular structures with the short side facing us in the schematic above. It is more likely a blown out chimney stack rather than an internal transverse corridor that can be seen in the centre of the building in the end-on photo with the picture of the man himself.
If there are to be any rooms without external windows they would be toilets and bathrooms - this is still the case in most Russian flats today.
The more I look at the photos, btw, the more I think that entrances were only on the side facing Zabolotniy's house rather than having some kind of 'shotgun' arrangement with entrances on both sides. This also ties in with my admittedly somewhat hazy memory of how elongated buildings such as this are laid out in Volgograd.
Here is a schematic view of the building from the direction of Zabolotniy's house, based on a photo I cannot release, unfortunately.
This is prior to the end (1st Podyezd) being blown off, so it shows 4 podyezdi or entrances. Please note that each podyezd was self-contained and not connected to its neighbours internally when the building was built. By this I am saying that I am 99% sure that there were no transverse corridors running the entire length of the building - unless in the basement. For each podyezd there would be a central flight of stairs with maybe 4 small flats (or possibly 2) per floor. Also note that the ground floor was raised, meaning that the basement ceiling would be slightly above ground level.
It is also worth noting that there were high rectangular windows or recesses up the staircase - this is unusual for smaller soviet buildings imo - allowing, as it does, the luxury of a non-dingy stairwell.
By the time of the battle many interior walls and probably a good proportion of the floors would be out. The rest would prolly have mouseholes for the movement of troops and ammo. There were also internal chimney stacks going up just either side of the stairwells and towards this side of the centre of the building. They were narrow rectangular structures with the short side facing us in the schematic above. It is more likely a blown out chimney stack rather than an internal transverse corridor that can be seen in the centre of the building in the end-on photo with the picture of the man himself.
If there are to be any rooms without external windows they would be toilets and bathrooms - this is still the case in most Russian flats today.
The more I look at the photos, btw, the more I think that entrances were only on the side facing Zabolotniy's house rather than having some kind of 'shotgun' arrangement with entrances on both sides. This also ties in with my admittedly somewhat hazy memory of how elongated buildings such as this are laid out in Volgograd.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
i have been struggeling to find a lightning that i like for several days now, but i think i am close to what i wanted.
pavlov's house in background
a view from the destroyed buildings, south west of pavlov's house.
again pavlov's house, notice the fundations on the left, of the "gasoline" building
i am using a dense fog to optimise the map, and also i doubt the germans would have launched an attack on a sunny cloudless day.
here is what i have in mind for the battle: the germans wont be directly attacking the house, they will come through the square and mostly by the rubbled buildings to the south west, their goal is to advance all around the building staying covered behind rubble, and try to trap the russians in the house. once all capture points around the house have been taken, the russians wont spawn in anymore and the germans will have to clear the building, wich will probably be a hard task. and if the russians fight their way out of the house and manage to capture the hangars behind the house again, they will start respawning again.
this is how i see it could work best, a direct assault on the house would be suicidal just like in real life, and not fun.
-both teams will have arty,
-limited tanks for germans( wich ones??)
-no sniper classes, but limited sniper rifles for both teams placed on the map itself
-ptrd for russians
-1 or 2 45mm at guns for russians
-??
i would like new skins for both teams, and try using the thick russian winter uniform for both teams. and reskin them grey/green for axis, brown for allies. to reflect the extremely cold weather.
pavlov's house in background
a view from the destroyed buildings, south west of pavlov's house.
again pavlov's house, notice the fundations on the left, of the "gasoline" building
i am using a dense fog to optimise the map, and also i doubt the germans would have launched an attack on a sunny cloudless day.
here is what i have in mind for the battle: the germans wont be directly attacking the house, they will come through the square and mostly by the rubbled buildings to the south west, their goal is to advance all around the building staying covered behind rubble, and try to trap the russians in the house. once all capture points around the house have been taken, the russians wont spawn in anymore and the germans will have to clear the building, wich will probably be a hard task. and if the russians fight their way out of the house and manage to capture the hangars behind the house again, they will start respawning again.
this is how i see it could work best, a direct assault on the house would be suicidal just like in real life, and not fun.
-both teams will have arty,
-limited tanks for germans( wich ones??)
-no sniper classes, but limited sniper rifles for both teams placed on the map itself
-ptrd for russians
-1 or 2 45mm at guns for russians
-??
i would like new skins for both teams, and try using the thick russian winter uniform for both teams. and reskin them grey/green for axis, brown for allies. to reflect the extremely cold weather.
Upvote
0
Looking very atmospheric, I like it lots. I think you can make a case for having a very short fog distance due to the amount of dust in the air and it being a misty November day near a river.
For vehicles the Germans would prolly have either PzIII's, short-barrel IV's or StuG's (but don't use StuG's 'cos they will feature in my map)
For vehicles the Germans would prolly have either PzIII's, short-barrel IV's or StuG's (but don't use StuG's 'cos they will feature in my map
)
Upvote
0
Man, that looks awesome.
Just a personal request but would you think about not adding auto rifles. When I think of pavlovs house i dont think of either side having "uber" weapons, which is what I see the auto rifles as. Historicaly I dont think there would be many G41s anyway, and I don't think the svt realy fits in with the Russians desperate defence of the house. If you want to add them then thats fine, Im not gonna not play the map because of them, but it would make me a happy tree if you didn't.
Anyways, great work, im looking foward to playing it.
Just a personal request but would you think about not adding auto rifles. When I think of pavlovs house i dont think of either side having "uber" weapons, which is what I see the auto rifles as. Historicaly I dont think there would be many G41s anyway, and I don't think the svt realy fits in with the Russians desperate defence of the house. If you want to add them then thats fine, Im not gonna not play the map because of them, but it would make me a happy tree if you didn't.
Anyways, great work, im looking foward to playing it.
Upvote
0
i have been struggeling to find a lightning that i like for several days now, but i think i am close to what i wanted.
pavlov's house in background
a view from the destroyed buildings, south west of pavlov's house.
again pavlov's house, notice the fundations on the left, of the "gasoline" building
i am using a dense fog to optimise the map, and also i doubt the germans would have launched an attack on a sunny cloudless day.
here is what i have in mind for the battle: the germans wont be directly attacking the house, they will come through the square and mostly by the rubbled buildings to the south west, their goal is to advance all around the building staying covered behind rubble, and try to trap the russians in the house. once all capture points around the house have been taken, the russians wont spawn in anymore and the germans will have to clear the building, wich will probably be a hard task. and if the russians fight their way out of the house and manage to capture the hangars behind the house again, they will start respawning again.
this is how i see it could work best, a direct assault on the house would be suicidal just like in real life, and not fun.
-both teams will have arty,
-limited tanks for germans( wich ones??)
-no sniper classes, but limited sniper rifles for both teams placed on the map itself
-ptrd for russians
-1 or 2 45mm at guns for russians
-??
i would like new skins for both teams, and try using the thick russian winter uniform for both teams. and reskin them grey/green for axis, brown for allies. to reflect the extremely cold weather.
Looks nice, but please don't let yourself be suckered in to the 'I need leet .u stuff because my map won't be cool if it -just- plays great' ideas. Just make a cool playing map, it's hard enough in itself.
Upvote
0
I think I just poo'd myself.
The map is looking amazing!
I like your idea of no respawns after all objectives around the House are captured, just wondering where will the Russians spawn right at the start? The Warehouse in which the Germans have to cap to stop the reinforcements?
One thing I'm a bit confused about is the no sniper class but having sniper rifles around the map...
The map is looking amazing!
I like your idea of no respawns after all objectives around the House are captured, just wondering where will the Russians spawn right at the start? The Warehouse in which the Germans have to cap to stop the reinforcements?
One thing I'm a bit confused about is the no sniper class but having sniper rifles around the map...
Upvote
0
i think the russians will spawn probably in the rubbled area behind zabolotniy's house, to simulate a hypothetical russian counterattack(since that area was mostly in german hands) so the germans must push them back, all the way around to the grain building, and attack the house via the trench that leads to it (wich is the only safe way to reach the house anyway)
the street between pavlovs and zabolot's house will be mined to the west, so axis tanks wont rush to the house directly.
about no sniper class, this is to prevent from snipers owning the field to much. i will place 1 sniper rifle on the map for each team, so those who want to snipe can go and pick them up. but if they die, the rifle is gone. and it will only respawn every 10 minutes or so.
and dont worry, myself i also think its better to have mainly bolts, a few semi's and only ppsh for commander. germans have mainly kar98, and a few mp40's
Upvote
0
Have to say that this is starting to look very good. The community input is very nice to see and a scenario on this topic deserves the best research and recreation possible. I think the objective process you are talking about sounds good. I contemplated the same map a couple months ago but went with another idea. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to progress the fight and not bog down inside.
- Have you thought of wire obstacles to blow for the Germans? Give the engineers something to do and maybe open a safer flank that way?
- Maybe provide an overhead with your objective layout? Progress is key. I had an idea for a "Univermag" scenario where the Russians would have to cap a circlular set of objectives, slowly closing the noose. Something similar might work with making the Germans "surround" the house first and you might be able to use spread out spawners to keep the pressure on the Russians from all angles and make the fight a bit more hectic that way.
- It is conceivable that if the Russians were pushed from the house, they would counter-attack to recover it. Are you thinking of allowing that?
- A final objective near the river could be the end scene as opposed to the Germans just clearing the house. Their ultimate objective would be reaching the river bank. A suggestion here would be to allow the Russians to counter attack from TWO flanks, if the Germans manage to break through toward the river. Set up identical spawns north and south of the final objective. That would simulate the Russians counter-attacking to seal the breach and keep the Germans off-balance not knowing where the attackers are alwasy coming from, making them defend their flanks as they move forward.
- I would suggest two ATRs to start with. If they prove too much, it is easier to remove one than add one with beta2 and then maybe have to go backward again in beta3 to get the balance right.
- AT guns: I wouldn't use them. But if you did, I would put them out on the flanks and near the rear objective. If you can determine the historic location of such guns, obviously go with that. I just think they would be positioned on the flanks moreso than not. As well, once TWI relesease the patch, you will have some nice randomized options for their locations. I can help you with that later. Ramm and I have not decided who will write the tutorial.
- Tanks: one PzIII and a StuG would be a start. I believe most StuGs were using the long-barrel 75 by this point, but if we can get the 'E' model in game before you go to testing, maybe consider that?
Overall, looking very good. This is quite a challenge to pick up and do 'right'. Just getting close is an accomplishment. Good luck to you and if I can be of any help, just ask.
- Have you thought of wire obstacles to blow for the Germans? Give the engineers something to do and maybe open a safer flank that way?
- Maybe provide an overhead with your objective layout? Progress is key. I had an idea for a "Univermag" scenario where the Russians would have to cap a circlular set of objectives, slowly closing the noose. Something similar might work with making the Germans "surround" the house first and you might be able to use spread out spawners to keep the pressure on the Russians from all angles and make the fight a bit more hectic that way.
- It is conceivable that if the Russians were pushed from the house, they would counter-attack to recover it. Are you thinking of allowing that?
- A final objective near the river could be the end scene as opposed to the Germans just clearing the house. Their ultimate objective would be reaching the river bank. A suggestion here would be to allow the Russians to counter attack from TWO flanks, if the Germans manage to break through toward the river. Set up identical spawns north and south of the final objective. That would simulate the Russians counter-attacking to seal the breach and keep the Germans off-balance not knowing where the attackers are alwasy coming from, making them defend their flanks as they move forward.
- I would suggest two ATRs to start with. If they prove too much, it is easier to remove one than add one with beta2 and then maybe have to go backward again in beta3 to get the balance right.
- AT guns: I wouldn't use them. But if you did, I would put them out on the flanks and near the rear objective. If you can determine the historic location of such guns, obviously go with that. I just think they would be positioned on the flanks moreso than not. As well, once TWI relesease the patch, you will have some nice randomized options for their locations. I can help you with that later. Ramm and I have not decided who will write the tutorial.
- Tanks: one PzIII and a StuG would be a start. I believe most StuGs were using the long-barrel 75 by this point, but if we can get the 'E' model in game before you go to testing, maybe consider that?
Overall, looking very good. This is quite a challenge to pick up and do 'right'. Just getting close is an accomplishment. Good luck to you and if I can be of any help, just ask.
Upvote
0
cool slyky! yup the stug E would fit this map like a glove, and i have a plan by pavlov, mentioning the exact emplacement of an 45mm gun (but obviously we cant have the gun spawn in on the exact same location over and over)
and i never thought of making the map up to the volga, i dont really know how far away it is. and i believe the germans never even got to there, but it is something to think about.
and about the attacks on several flanks, do you think it is possible to create a third group of soldiers? atm we have 2, infantry and tankers. could we have 2 infantry groups?? with each their own spawnpoints?
as the russians have no tankers here, we could use them instead. so there would be a pavlov team( who always spawns in behind house, and must defend house) and a assault team who must prevent the germans to reach the house...
but that is all just an idea
and i never thought of making the map up to the volga, i dont really know how far away it is. and i believe the germans never even got to there, but it is something to think about.
and about the attacks on several flanks, do you think it is possible to create a third group of soldiers? atm we have 2, infantry and tankers. could we have 2 infantry groups?? with each their own spawnpoints?
as the russians have no tankers here, we could use them instead. so there would be a pavlov team( who always spawns in behind house, and must defend house) and a assault team who must prevent the germans to reach the house...
but that is all just an idea
Upvote
0
Those last screens look particullary impressive, I think you really captured the atmosphere of Stalingrad. I can only imagine how it will be during actual gameplay. I also think your ideas for the objectives are unique and interesting.
On the last StuG E texture update, I put the insignia of the 245nd Sturmgesch
On the last StuG E texture update, I put the insignia of the 245nd Sturmgesch
Upvote
0
It's awesome to see all the attention to historicness and representing the battle in an accurate fashion and all the detective work going into it (as previously mentioned). GJ to all (and also Trendkill for instigating the topic), strive for excellence.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
The attention to historical details is amazing. And the screenies look awesome! I really like the idea of the single sniper rifle spawn.
With the creative approach to the spawns, objectives, and the unique combined arms layout, I would suggest to do some alpha testing on one server, and select players, to adjust balance and gameplay. This would allow you alot of flexibility on adjusting it exactly the way you want it. And would be perfect when you release the beta.
Good luck and great job so far SchutzSepp. This is an awesome community for gathering historical data and suggestions.
With the creative approach to the spawns, objectives, and the unique combined arms layout, I would suggest to do some alpha testing on one server, and select players, to adjust balance and gameplay. This would allow you alot of flexibility on adjusting it exactly the way you want it. And would be perfect when you release the beta.
Good luck and great job so far SchutzSepp. This is an awesome community for gathering historical data and suggestions.
Upvote
0