Tactics Defense: Is it a myth?

[DingBat]

I've experienced a couple of recent events that's triggered this post. One is an ongoing discussion about whether or not Gorlitz is unbalanced and the other was a series of rounds on StalingradKessel.

I've recently come to the conclusion that the vast majority of players simply don't "get" defense in any way, shape, or form. I'm sure this isn't news to many veterans, but I hadn't really thought about it much prior to this.

Most players seem to view defense as simply attacking when you already own the objectives. That's really it.

Cases in point:

Some of the objections to Gorlitz seemed to boil down to the fact that it's linear (no argument there) and that the objectives do not allow recapture (again, no argument) therefore there is no opportunity for the Germans to take back objectives therefore the action always ends up at the end of the map therefore it's predictable and boring. Now, there may be the seeds of some valid criticism there but I was struck by the mindset necessary to make those comments in the first place. The implications where clearly that a map where the defenders have no opportunity to counterattack was not as much fun as one where that opportunity existed. I might be taking unwarranted liberties but it seemed as if the bottom line was this: defence without the opportunity to attack is boring.

Next came several recent rounds on StalingradKessel, still one of my favorite maps. I'm not sure how many times I've seen the Germans lose due to running out of reinforcements, but it's a lot. Why does this happen? It seems that most of the time it's due to the Germans continually flinging themselves forward in an attempt to retake the warehouse, long after it's clear that we've got our hands full simply denying the soviets access to the other objectives. I've seen smg gunners run into the warehouse even after the low reinforcements message has been displayed.

We actually did have one round where we eaked out a win where several of us basically harangued the others into defending. We had ambushes set up at both the rail yard and the hall and it actually worked. We came from down over 10% to hold on for the win. Hey, defense works, what a concept.

It might just be mindset. I love nothing better than a tense fight for the last objective, such as at the tower on Odessa or the end of Konigsplatz. I love that. I can get the idea of a battle against not only the enemy, but against time as well. I like those kinds of maps and I'd love to see more of them.

So, why is defense so hard?

 

[Karabiner98k]

This is a very good point, it happens with attacking in the reverse too. On our clan server we had 10 of us and 6 pub players, and we were attacking on Kaukasus. With 2 minutes left we all flung oourselves into an attack, coordinated on TS. It failed, but was very close. Reinforcements were depleted, and we all shouted on VOIP and text for the remaining players (pub players) to attack. Every one of them just sat back and plinked , even with 30 seconds left, even with mp40s and confusedpistols.

Tends to happen on Pariserplatz too, Germans tend to run past the Brandenburger Tor and attack even with very low reinforcements, whilst we are shouting over VOIP and text to pull back from the Tor and cover it. Most people still charge, even tankers with limited tanks.

 

[_MB_]

To be honest with all these clever custom maps appearing, I am seeing an increase in teamwork. Often all it takes is one or two people to start talking to the team and things happen. Maybe not everyone will acquiesce but often enough do to make the game entertaining. Really that's what the issue is; teamwork rather than any difficulty with the concept of defense.

 

[ImNotRyan]

I understand your point exactly - however to play devil's advocate - to defend without the opportunity to counter-attack is un-german.

 

[Nagels]

Defenders attack, attackers attack. Players want their killpoints imo.

What might change the way ppl play is to ratio the reinforcement numbers on each side.

An entrenched enemy requires greater numbers to displace, 3 to 1, 4 to 1 or whatever.

If attackers have the greater ratio of reinforcements the defenders would think twice about rushing forward enmasse.

Let the defenders dig in (possibly spawntimes could accomodate the defenders getting dug in so to speak)

Then teamwork and tactics would really be a virtue in order for either side to win.

 

[Tomcat_ha]

Defense works very well. In clan matches you will quite often see that counter attacking does not always work. However a successfull defence isnt only standing back and letting them come for you. It also includes changing positions moving forwards and backwards so that you always can get your shots of first.

 

[DingBat]

Defense works very well. In clan matches you will quite often see that counter attacking does not always work. However a successfull defence isnt only standing back and letting them come for you. It also includes changing positions moving forwards and backwards so that you always can get your shots of first.

Each map requires different strategies, totally. All I want is the occasional map (just once in a while) where defenders are forced to just defend.

And, yes, I'm not surprised that clanners "get it".

_MB_: I, too, am hopeful with all the new community maps that are coming out. I think there's a natural desire to represent a wide variety of tactical situations, so I hope I'll get a few more Gorlitz's alongside the other "back and forth" style maps.

ImNotRyan: I knew someone was going to say that.

 

[Gomer Pyle]

I understand your point exactly - however to play devil's advocate - to defend without the opportunity to counter-attack is un-german.

There's a lot of truth in that. One of the primary defensive tactics the Germans used in WWII was the counter-attack.

A good counter-attack should come from the flank, not hit the enemy head-on. Three of us (Germans) in Gorlitz once fought our way down a side street and hit the main Russian line from the rear. We completely eliminated that wave's push against the German lines. That type of counter-attack doesn't happen often though. The Germans in Gorlitz are mostly fighting the clock. If they stay coordinated and fall back in order they can beat the clock. If they counter-attack too often or with too many people then their defensive lines crumble too quickly and they can't hold the Russians long enough.

There's a lot of satisfaction when winning a defensive battle. Unfortunately, the satisfaction only comes at the end of the round. During the round it feels like losing because you're always giving up ground. When attacking, you feel like your winning if you're taking ground even if you lose at the end because you weren't fast enough.

 

[Atomskytten]

I think the problem is that too many players simply do not grasp the concepts of how to conduct a proper defence, or attack, in a realistic military fashion - in particular the concepts of Economy of strength, Surprise, communication and Mass eludes the minds of the masses - fancy ideas like overlapping fields of fire, killzones, cul de sacs, fallback positions etc etc simply do not exist in, or is alien to, the minds of those who have no experience or even basic knowledge on how the real military fights in war. The consequences of this is seen often on the public servers where about 3/4 of the players scores less than the remaining 1/4 players, who both know how to communicate and coordinate offensive and defensive maneuvres.
In short you can't expect players who have absolute no realistic knowledge on military operations to behave in a militarily realistic and efficient way when their only point of reference is the movies or video games.

 

[mat69]

I don't think that counter attacking or defending is a problem.
It only becomes a problem if done without coordination, one more than the other.
Often it seems that there is teamwork, but after all many times it is just running in the same direciton.

 

[Jono]

Aha! Good point Dingbat.

I shall continue..

The "lack of defence" on public play is what I find to be a fundamental problem with the game itself. Sure, any enthusiastic player can getting chatting and get some sort of teamwork in motion but when there aren't any...Well it's what you said; "Just attacking but with the objectives in your hands".
I believe this is because each "soldier" has what he (or she ) needs to survive. You don't actually need to be with team members (unless it's just you vs. 20 people and if you do find yourself in that situation then you have entered the wrong server or you have one screwed up sense of humour ) and because of that people don't bother with setting up a defence, opening up proper communication with their teammates ect ect...
I have no idea to fix this, maybe try slowing down gameplay (soldiers pace should be dropped) and making movements cumbersome.

I'm not saying I'm right, which is strange for me, but I'm just putting forward my opinion.

Cheers,
Jono

 

[Funker42]

I understand your point exactly - however to play devil's advocate - to defend without the opportunity to counter-attack is un-german.

Actually, it was one of the complaints of the German Officers that they were constantly being told to attack in hopeless situations.

One General asked by Hitler why he was retreating responded by saying "I'm not retreating, I'm preparing to attack a position from behind our lines!"

But in truth, most of the German counter attacks in the final days of the war were suicidal and quite wastefull. Most of the veteran defenders of Berlin were complaining that the Volksturm were just getting in the way of their line of fire.

The German defenders at Sealowe heights were able to put up a pretty good static defense without taking too many casualties of their their own until they had to withdraw to Berlin proper.

However, the tactics of Mobile Defense the Germans used in successful methods usually meant not attacking the attacking forces head on but rather screening them with a static force and attacking their flanks or rear with a mobile force.

Hence... Offense on say Gorlizt and other maps is a bad example of this because it is a very limited in the scope and scale of the battlefield because you can't really simulate full division military forces which you attack from the rear on the reservres.

 

[Heinz]

it's a valid point indeed. one need look no further that RO-Berezina to find a complete excercize in frsutration, trying to play defense as soviets on a public server.

the mind boggles, when precious reinforcement lives are wasted by players trying to re-cap areas that cannot be re-captured, etc.

no easy solutions in sight.

 

[Moleman]

it's a valid point indeed. one need look no further that RO-Berezina to find a complete excercize in frsutration, trying to play defense as soviets on a public server.

the mind boggles, when precious reinforcement lives are wasted by players trying to re-cap areas that cannot be re-captured, etc.

no easy solutions in sight.

Too true. And because those players are running forward, the next cap zone has too few defenders and so falls easily when the Germans get a tank and a couple of halftracks round the flank.

Maybe a big line of text on the screen saying 'Fall back, comrade" when an objective is lost. On one or two current maps (I forget which) you sometimes see a message in bold blue text flash up about tank spawning at the start of the round (I forget exactly what it says). Maybe something like that would help.

 

[Kavelin]

i have noticed that people that play RO just dont get tactics.
Take this for example, gorlitz is the perfect place for ambushes. If you use the destroyed building the germans can hold i stress this fact constantly but no one listens. they prefur to send themselves in constantly into MG and rifle fire and die. so at the end the russians have like 60% reinforcments and the germans 10. same thing goes for Stalingrad. People defence and tactical fall back plans create victory. unless your attacking

 

[slyder73]

Each map requires different strategies, totally. All I want is the occasional map (just once in a while) where defenders are forced to just defend.

And, yes, I'm not surprised that clanners "get it".

_MB_: I, too, am hopeful with all the new community maps that are coming out. I think there's a natural desire to represent a wide variety of tactical situations, so I hope I'll get a few more Gorlitz's alongside the other "back and forth" style maps.

ImNotRyan: I knew someone was going to say that.

I coulnd't agree more with the gist of this thread. I've been on a good defending team many times on Gorlitz for the win. The key is to have the whole team defending, holding and pushing up to hold the capzone from INSIDE the capzone. Pouring all the rounds the entire team can downrange from cover is defense. If a team understands this and coordinates this, all those rounds flying down there may hit something, but more importantly it keep their heads down, keep them under cover and causes a lot of them to go to belly and start picking potshots. This is a desirable goal, as it drains down the clock so the defending side wins. Remember too, that the reinforcements are trickling up as they respawn, not as a single wave. Your guys will all die in a minute or less, so keep pushing up and don't stop till you are at the "front" or in the capzone. Keep firing, it's no secret you are there, so don't bother holding your fire till they get close. The more you shoot the more likely they are to lay down. On Gorlitz for example, the best defense is a very strong counter attack. If you keep pushing, and never retreat, making them fight for every inch, you can easily pull down the clock to the win.

This takes a lot of VOIP though to get the teamwork and to get EVERYONE to follow the plan. It is frustrating to have a plan, with just a few percent reinforcements left and still see a couple guys charging up there draining them to zero. Even worse when you call them to stay back, they get nasty and tell you to play like you want and they'll play like they want. Losing is just around the corner in those cases.

Someone else said it, that it only takes a few to start talking and planning and much of the team comes around and helps. The clan guys might know how to do it, but I find a lot of the time, when they are on a server there is sometimes this eletist attitude that it's "just a pub" and some of them refuse to use VOIP or communicate with the non-clan players. VOIP is the key.
So, spread the word guys, use VOIP, get your team to defend, pour that ammo downrange, it's free, you might see some wins at Gorlitz and others.

 

[Manstein]

defense is just as critical as attack in Red Orchestra, the problem is that many players are either unaware of how to do it effectively, or unwilling to hold a position, instead preferring to attack irregardless of situation

 

[Nimsky]

Haven't read the entire thread.

The big problem is that most people do not grasp the concept of "retreating" and "reinforcements". Take Konigsplatz for example. In most cases, the Germans HAVE to retreat at a certain point, otherwise they run out of reinforcements too fast. The Moltke Monument is especially a meatgrinder. It's better to leave that one for the Russians and just wait until they show themselves in the open.

I tell people to retreat, I use the voice command, but the only reply I get is "Keine bewegung!". And then when the reinforcement counter hits 0%, they complain that we lost the map. Because pwning people is so much more important than teamwork.

 

[Cuddles]

Sometimes people are in the wrong cap, or even camping in a far corner of the map far from the cap.

 

[murderous_eagle]

Defense is not dead. For proof of this play Smolensk with a competant allied team and see how long they can hold the stone wall at the last objective, or the first obj entirely.

On Odessa people camping the side park or sandbags are cutting off attack routes, defending.

Plus, a good defense allows for an organized offensive push. People just need to know when to attack, and when to defend.