Dogfights

[SheepDip]

I only learned about dogfights and stuff from CFS2's mammoth manual, had a list of US and IJN aces and so on. Really a startling difference, but as we've said (and just like the Germans) quality of training and quantity of pilots is a huge factor.

 

[BuddyLee]

So he downed 60 enemy and 2 friendly aircraft for a total of 62 kills? Are you sure? From what I have read on the history of air combat during WWII a friendly fire incident, though happened more often than the allies wanted to admit, would not be credited to a pilots' overall kill record? There was no cold war back then, while certainly plenty of mistrust existed between the allies, it would still be hard to imagine any pilot adding or being awarded a kill for downing friendlies under any circumstances.

Yeah, if anything he should have 58 kills, after subtracting 2 points for the 2 TK's.

 

[RussianGuy89]

Yeah, if anything he should have 58 kills, after subtracting 2 points for the 2 TK's.

My bad, I phrased that wrong. He had a total of 62 air kills, that were all enemy planes. My bad.

It doesnt matter, the number still exceedes the closest allied air ace

 

[Grobut]

Flying a far inferior aircraft compared to the western allies (la-5 and the La-7)

Since when? the Lavochkin fighters where top notch, go over the numbers, they where easilly on par with the best the western allies had, or the Germans for that matter, in all but service cieling, but they didn't need that as the air war in the east happened down low, so thats a non-factor.

 

[|9.SS|Kriechbaum]

Yea late war russian aircraft operated their best at low altitudes and were pretty well designed.

As for the German pilots and there massive amounts of kills, they were able to take down hundreds of planes because by the end of the war everytime German fighters went up into the air they knew they would encounter the enemy, unlike the western allies who were at times unopposed simply because the Germans couldnt put as many planes up into the air as the U.S. or Great Britain.

 

[DingBat]

There are a couple of excellent books called "Black Cross/Red Star" that are exclusively focused on the air war on the eastern front.

One quote from a german fighter pilot stuck with me. It went something like this:

"We loved the eastern front because every day we would go up and there would be more russians. We hated the eastern front because every day we would go up and there would be more russians."

 

[thedonster]

As for the German pilots and there massive amounts of kills, they were able to take down hundreds of planes because by the end of the war everytime German fighters went up into the air they knew they would encounter the enemy, unlike the western allies who were at times unopposed simply because the Germans couldnt put as many planes up into the air as the U.S. or Great Britain.

See earlier comments from this thread concerning German pilot claims. If you want a reasonable estimate of actual German pilot victories then multiply their claims by one third.

 

[DingBat]

See earlier comments from this thread concerning German pilot claims. If you want a reasonable estimate of actual German pilot victories then multiply their claims by one third.

Do you have any reason to believe that German pilots overestimated their kills more than any other combatant? Just interested.

 

[Recce]

Do you have any reason to believe that German pilots overestimated their kills more than any other combatant? Just interested.

Supposedly there was a strong emphasis on one individual achievement rather than squadron achievement within the Luftwaffe. This was supposed to contribute to over counts. But like all things, it would have changed over time. I don't know how you'd prove it, unless you looked at decoration / citation being awarded, and their criteria, between the different airforces.

I imagine that the officers taking after action reports could easily contribute, not cross checking and awarding halves or unconfirmed as full kills.

As a slight aside, I recently saw a program about Douglas Bader, investigating his collision/defeat. The records of JG26 seemed to tied in with the RAF records, given the fog of war. Will never know if it was a collision, or if a RAF of Luftwaffe pilot shot him down.
But I don't imagine that a commander like Adolf Galland would have tolerated anything less than complete professionalism when it came to operational flying, so I'd expect JG26 records to be as accurate as possible

 

[thedonster]

Do you have any reason to believe that German pilots overestimated their kills more than any other combatant? Just interested.

As far as the western allies I don't know. The Soviets were much more strict about crediting victories. Before 1943 they didn't count any plane unless the wreckage was recovered so any planes shot down over German lines (or destroyed in airfield attacks) didn't count, as well as a lot of kills over Soviet territory where the wreck wasn't found.. After 1943 I think the Soviets required 2 witnesses before a kill was credited.
I don't know how reliable the Western allied pilots claims are, probably not very if you believe Len Deighton's writings. But German aerial victory numbers are wildly inflated, that's for certain.

 

[Lt. Stephenson]

You never know how their storys were told, "We were jumped by a hundred P-51's, of course I ran out of ammo after shooting 50 down, so I took out my pistol and promptly shot the rest down.

 

[thedonster]

But I don't imagine that a commander like Adolf Galland would have tolerated anything less than complete professionalism when it came to operational flying, so I'd expect JG26 records to be as accurate as possible

I don't think so. Galland commanded JG 26 during the Battle of Britain. Comparison of German pilot claims vs British squadron records for this period show the typical pattern of exaggerated claims. (Reverse comparison also shows British claims to be similarly inflated.)
The reasons for this are several. In some cases it may not be deliberate. Several pilots shooting at one plane may all claim a kill. Damaged aircraft which managed to return to base were frequently claimed in error.
However, the nature of Nazi Germany was that various services and units competed for credit and resounces. It was in a unit's self interest to claim to be successful as those units got the best replacement pilots and equipment as well as their commanders receiving personal glory.