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Explosive ammunition

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#21
No, they don't, considering military rounds are regular old FMJ. The 'shock wave' doesn't actually do anything, because most of the body is quite elastic. It might warp for a millisecond, but that doesn't make you immediately die. After all, do you die when you get punched in the arm? That causes similar trauma to what the 'shock wave' of a bullet does. It merely moves surrounding tissue, it doesn't blow it apart or anything.

Bullets kill because they make a hole in you. Not because of the force of the impact, or because they expend all their energy in your body. The main factor is simply where the hole is, and how deep it went. While something like the Winchester ranger SXT rounds might make a bullet wound harder to heal, they won't exactly cause any additional trauma that would make you die on the spot. Or at least any more than a regular bullet would.

Comparing the "shock wave" of a bullet to the energy released by an earthquake is a terrible metaphor. It'd be like comparing a mosquito to a fighter jet.

Bullets do not make you die instantly. Even if you're hit in the heart, your body can still 'function' for approximately 14 seconds.

In regards to the shock wave causing damage to internal organs, the only organ that can truly be damaged by something like that is the liver. It's a fairly inelastic organ, and warping the tissue WILL cause additional damage. For the rest of the body's organs, however, having that shock wave pass through them won't do damage even remotely comparable to gettind perforated by the bullet itself.

I'm not a very big believer in the additional destructive force of a hollow point bullet. I could very well be completely wrong, but I just don't think a bullet mushrooming out an extra millimeter or two is going to cause any extra damage above and beyond that of a normal bullet. I don't think the possible unreliability in feeding is worth the trade-off, unless, of course, you're using a revolver.

People need to realize that most bullets are just a little piece of lead that move at a very high speed. They don't do anything like blow you apart, or make your blood stop in your veins. Even if they did make your blood stop flowing in a local area because of a 'shock wave', do you die when your leg falls asleep? Bullets kill people because they make a hole where there previously was no hole, and unless that hole happens to be made in the heart or central nervous system, then the other person will probably not be dying very quickly.

Derailing threads is fun.

Edit, because the person below me brought up a very good point: In regards to killing things, a bigger hole is always better. So, yes, I guess I should give hollow point/soft point bullets and such their due, because they're more effective at making a bigger hole than a regular old FMJ. However, I don't think they're more effective simply because of anything like hydrostatic shock, which was the point I was trying (and failed) to make.
 
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#22
If you were right, everybody would go hunting with fmjs all time.
Sure the most important thing is where the shot is placed. Period. But the kind and size of the bullet channel is more important than its pure depth.

I don't know what kind of hollow point bullets you got in the states, but in old europe they're normally able to double their size in the targets. As a passionate hunter I' ve made good experiences with hollowtips, frangibles etc. for years. All animals die much faster than if they were hit by "normal " bullets in the same spot. It can't be coincidental, that it is that way.

What was this thread about.. ah no I don't think we need explosive ammo implented in RO.
 
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#30
Bone saw said:
If you were right, everybody would go hunting with fmjs all time.
Sure the most important thing is where the shot is placed. Period. But the kind and size of the bullet channel is more important than its pure depth.

I don't know what kind of hollow point bullets you got in the states, but in old europe they're normally able to double their size in the targets. As a passionate hunter I' ve made good experiences with hollowtips, frangibles etc. for years. All animals die much faster than if they were hit by "normal " bullets in the same spot. It can't be coincidental, that it is that way.

What was this thread about.. ah no I don't think we need explosive ammo implented in RO.
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And that's exactly why hollow points are not used in army weapons. It's much more preferable to just wound or maim your enemy, because that takes away severeal other soldiers from the fighting who have to take care of their wounded comrade. That's also why you, if able, aim at the enemies gut/ lower chest, to maximize the chance of a serious wound instead of instant death.
 
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#31
a friend, who serverd in germany military explained me once, that the reason, they dont use the 7,96ammunition for weapons anymore, is the fact that people died even from shots in the arm or shoulder to easily, as new war tactics made it neseccary to only wound, then just kill the enemy, so it would bind more forces. For a dead soldier, you just need a grave, for a maybe even serious wounded one you need, doctors, nurses, and you have to carry him out of the battlefield. A whole logistic work, for just single soldiers. He said, the 7,96 had a strong velocity, way to much for a infantry cardrige anyway, that a hit could mean a immediate death to the target. I dont know if that is true, but compared with that a schockwave from a very close explosition (grenades, mortars, artillery etc.), can cause small veins in the eyes and nose to burst, this might also happen with veins in the brain, leaving some heavy problems or killing the person. The impact from the shoot, in the shoulder or arm, might be enough to cause something like that. I dont know.
 
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#34
Nestor Makhno said:
Hydrostatic shock is what it's called - there have been a lot of posts on some of the unofficial British Army forums about the reasons for adopting 5.56mm ammo - doubtless on the forums of just about every other army as well.
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interesting what wikipedia tells about it ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

not that they are neseccary right. But its interesting non the less. Need more research about that, from serious sources!
 
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#35
The big difference as I see it Crim between say a hollow point and an fmj is deviation.

In my experience hunting with soft tips and such they tend to mushroom, fragment and deviate as they pass through something, whereas the fmj just goes right through in a more or less straight line, unless it hits bone. This means that your expanding bullets generally rend a much more worse wound, which equals more bleeding and quicker death for the unfortunate animal.

There's nothing wrong with hunting with fmj though if you place your shot in the right spot you'll get the kill anyway. It just isn't recommended for the yobbo hunter who is going to hit the animal anywhere he can with little regard for how painful and slow it's death is.

Yellonet said:
And that's exactly why hollow points are not used in army weapons. It's much more preferable to just wound or maim your enemy, because that takes away severeal other soldiers from the fighting who have to take care of their wounded comrade. That's also why you, if able, aim at the enemies gut/ lower chest, to maximize the chance of a serious wound instead of instant death.
Click to expand...
Really I always thought aiming center mass was more about maximising the chance of hitting the enemy rather than anything specific to do with wounding.

Also the problem as I see it with that doctrine is that while it may sound great on paper, and hey it might of even applied to Ivan because he generally cared about his comrades. When Johnny Jihad is charging your fighting position with the intention of putting a grenade in your front pocket you want to stop him cold.

Soldiers who have used 5.56 in combat have been criticising it for a long time, from it's damnable performance in the Mogadishu incident, to Afghanistan to Iraq and now. It's a great caliber to shoot, little recoil, nice flat trajectory and great velocity, but just not a good man stopper.
 
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#36
7.62x54R exploding ammunition certainly -does- exist. It was developed in the late 1930's, and uses a PETN charge with a very tiny detonator. The bullet will have a red laquer tip, and will generally be found in a copper-washed steel case.

Normal rifle ammunition of this type -can- still be found, even today, but it's pretty rare. It was quite widely used in the Winter War, though. Most of it was not intended for use in a Mosin-Nagant or an SVT, though, as it is loaded to a MUCH higher chamber pressure than normal ammunition. (Sort of the same deal between PPSh and Tokarev: the 7.62x25 ammo is different for SMG's than pistols.) It was made for the SHkas anti-aircraft machine gun, which uses the same calibre. The SHkas ammunition can be distinguished by a red laquer seal on the primer, a beveled cartridge head, and an SH character in the headstamp.
 
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#37
The russians did use explosive bullets on the eastern front, no doubt about it. If you have read any memoirs at all of german snipers always searching dead russian snipers and sometimes normal riflemen to get some of this highly valuable ammunition. Some sources suggest the russians started using them in 1941 and hitler eventually authorised them in 1944.

heres a pic of a moisin explosive bullet http://www.mosinnagant.net/images/t3pred.jpg
 
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#38
The german snipers used explosive bullets also, these bullets were meant for spotting instead of using a tracer for instance. I have an account of a german sniper using explosive bullets when under attack from russian waves. He would load his G-43 with explosive bullets, sit on the flank of the german line, wait for the first 2-3 waves of russians to pass and then fire at the wave behind them, aiming at their bellies so they would fall to the ground screaming and thus scare and stop the waves in front.A
The book is;
"Out of Nowhere: A History of the Military Sniper"
A great read, very interesting book with comments from a British sniper.
 
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