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Iron Sights Zoom (Merged)

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#81
Murphy said:
Our maps are A LOT (just trying to be louder here, you know...) smaller than real battlefields, and if we try to create bigger landscapes we have to leave out details and we have huge, blank, hills, were an enemy is practically glowing while he would be perfectly hidden in the grass in real life.

I'd say that we can still see and hit much too far for the ranges we have in RO. And a zoom-function, that would be a matter of taste to begin with (a taste which many of us don't share, including the developers appearantly, or else the function would already be in. As you said, its easy to do, and we can already do it with a bit of .ini-magic although it only works offline) would make matters worse.
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i agree on the visibility of enemy soldiers.
in the mod it was a lot harder to spot anyone, because they didnt stand out from the terrain as much as they do now in Ostfront, and i kinda liked that more because less visibility=more carefull play IMO.
i feel i make a whole lot more kills more easy in Ostfront then i did in RO3.3, and that isnt necessarily a good thing.
i could imagine that on for example, konigsplatz, if that map was in in the mod days, it would be really hard to spot anyone in the distance, while now you see white spots of faces and stuff like that.
 
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#82
That's what I wrote too, and in the case of the "Battlefield" games or the "Call of Duty" series this is true. However, in Red Orchestra we already have a huge advantage if we use the iron sights to aim, because hip-shots are extremely inaccurate. We don't need artificial bonuses like zoom, increased weapon-accuracy or additional damage and what-not.
So we already use the weapons realistically (excluding teamkillers, rambo-players or hip-shooting-gods ).
So thats not a problem for me.
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Why do you bring up all sorts of points noone asked for or even mentioned. Plus even if you mention your mantra a gazillion times that you find IS zoom "artificial" or "magic" , it doesn't make it fact, it's still your opinion.
I could go ahead and point out that the soldiers were stressed, scared, hungry and cold so our in-game soldiers can shoot pretty well, given the circumstances but I don't want to, because almost every thread about weapons is full of this and I don't think that it belongs in any thread on here. Just my opinion...
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Two things that have nothing to do with eachother.
I want to point out though, that we already have a feature that lowers our mousesensivity while we use the sights, and in terms of shooting and aiming, that's the same thing as a zoom, it just doesn't zoom visually.[
When you zoom to a target, it is harder to miss it because it is bigger on your screen and you have to move your mouse farther to miss it. By decreasing the mousesensivity we get the same effect, just without a visual zoom.
As I said before, the bigger FoV is realistic (in my opinion), and a zoom just from looking over a weapon is not (in my opinion). So I still don't see a reason why we would need it? Surely the accuracy can't be the problem as I wrote above.
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It is not, don't be rediculous. If that was the case there was no point of having a scoped rifle. While mouse sensivity enables you to aim more carefully it barely effects accuracy. The mouse movement isn't the limiting factor, the size of the sight and the targets are. And yes, accuracy is the problem.
Take a look at the linked photograph and tell me all the places were someone with rifle could hide and wait to kill you:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/deutschla...ar/berlin1.jpg
Now have a look at this famous image:
http://kora.host.sk/kpm/velkeobr/berlin.jpg
Tell me, where the 31 ROPlayers are on that one.

Its hard, isn't it? Here's a city-shot in RO as a comparison:
http://www.gamers.com.sg/uploaded/Image/RO1.JPG
And here's another one:
http://pix.nofrag.com/ba/41/43ad1b08...82a2bf7f8d.jpg

That's a different league, isn't it? How many places are there, were enemies could hide or come from? Two? Four? Ten?

Is it really that unrealistic that we can't see other players from as far away as we possibly could in real life?

Or a desert:
http://www.sheltoweehikes.com/photog...a desert.JPG
Behind which of the bushes are Fritzes?
And where are the bushes here, let alone the Fritzes?
http://www.2404.org/downloads/Red ...1384761164.jpg

Or here:
http://home.comcast.net/~ride4haiti/...efferson-1.jpg
Could you spot a hidden soldier here?
Now look here:
http://www.gamers.com.sg/uploaded/Image/RO3.JPG

Do you really think it would be more realistic if we could see (and hit) farther than we already can in RO?
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What does all this have to do with the topic? Little if anything. Drawing distance isn't affected by field of view at all, so you won't be able to see further, merely have a clearer picture of what is on-screen. And yes, that would be very realistic. My real world vision doesn't run 1024x768 and I can actually tell the difference between a bush and a prone soldier at 100 metres. Plus like I said the sights are simply way too small and pixelated, which makes bringing the front sight over the target at 100 metres harder than i experienced in real life.

Until we have resolutions in the 10k area and 30" screens a slight iron sights zoom is a perfectly valid measure for overcoming the boundaries of todays game hardware.
 
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#83
KrazyKraut said:
What does all this have to do with the topic? Little if anything. Drawing distance isn't affected by field of view at all, so you won't be able to see further, merely have a clearer picture of what is on-screen. And yes, that would be very realistic.
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I never said anything about drawing distances, did I?
Real persons can see infinitely far (in theory), but the question is, can they recognize what they see? I for one can see stars and other planets, but I sure can't tell if E.T. is out there somewhere. What I said has nothing to do with the drawdistances at all.

It was said that real persons can spot and hit a target at longer ranges than we can in RO and I posted that this isn't true and if you ever saw a glowing face of an opponent somewhere on a blank, grassless hill you would agree with me. Even without my google-pictures.

KrazyKraut said:
Why do you bring up all sorts of points noone asked for or even mentioned. Plus even if you mention your mantra a gazillion times that you find IS zoom "artificial" or "magic" , it doesn't make it fact, it's still your opinion.
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1. It was mentioned, if I remember right I even quoted the part I was responding to.
2. Come on, what would you call an eye-zoom function? "Natural"?:rolleyes:

KrazyKraut said:
While [lowering the] mouse sensivity enables you to aim more carefully it barely effects accuracy.
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That seems to be a slight contradiction.
KrazyKraut said:
The mouse movement isn't the limiting factor, the size of the sight and the targets are. And yes, accuracy is the problem.
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Explain that to me please. Place the middle of the sight onto the middle of the target. Doesn't sound hard to me.
If you mean that the front-sight is obscuring the target, then please take a look through a scope in Red Orchestra. The crosshairs are huge there, yet as you mentioned yourself: Why would they build scoped rifles then?

And the fact that the weapon can't be unaligned if you use iron-sights more than makes up for the lost accuracy at ranges where the front-sight might obscure the target.

KrazyKraut said:
Two things that have nothing to do with eachother.
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Then leave them out, just as I "did".;) Just a little social critisism so to speak and it was by no means meant as a point in an argumentation and I thought I made that clear.
Lighten up.
 
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#84
Murphy said:
I never said anything about drawing distances, did I?
Real persons can see infinitely far (in theory), but the question is, can they recognize what they see? I for one can see stars and other planets, but I sure can't tell if E.T. is out there somewhere. What I said has nothing to do with the drawdistances at all.
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You said "... we can still see and hit much too far for the ranges we have in RO. And a zoom-function, that would be a matter of taste to begin with would make matters worse.", clearly implying that IS zoom would affect how far you can, which it wouldn't. Only drawing distance does that. I cleared that up.

It was said that real persons can spot and hit a target at longer ranges than we can in RO and I posted that this isn't true and if you ever saw a glowing face of an opponent somewhere on a blank, grassless hill you would agree with me. Even without my google-pictures.
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See that's why I'm upset. You like telling people what can and can't be done. Have you even shot a rifle in real life? I for one have and while i'm an average shooter I could still hit man sized targets at 300 metres. Of course it's not easy to do but for different reasons than barely being able to see the front sight post.

1. It was mentioned, if I remember right I even quoted the part I was responding to.
2. Come on, what would you call an eye-zoom function? "Natural"?:rolleyes:
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Spare me the rolling eyes: The whole game is "artificial", iron sights doesn't increase that. Everything in game is scaled down so we have some peripheral view. But it is not "realistic". Iron sights zoom brings everything closer to its real size for the purpose of aiming, that's all. Not artificial, at least not more so than having everything scaled down all the time.

That seems to be a slight contradiction.
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No it's not. Check the word "barely" if you will.
Explain that to me please. Place the middle of the sight onto the middle of the target. Doesn't sound hard to me.
If you mean that the front-sight is obscuring the target, then please take a look through a scope in Red Orchestra. The crosshairs are huge there, yet as you mentioned yourself: Why would they build scoped rifles then?
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The problem is that the front sight of your average gun is 3 pixels (exaggregation) wide and can only be moved in 1 pixel increments. Which may very well be enough if the target itself is one pixel wide (again exaggregation).

I can aim much more accurately in real life. IS zoom simply makes up for this "artificial" limitation.
 
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#85
KrazyKraut said:
Have you even shot a rifle in real life? I for one have and while i'm an average shooter I could still hit man sized targets at 300 metres. Of course it's not easy to do but for different reasons than barely being able to see the front sight post.
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So admittedly an iron-sight zoom is not realistic, but it can make up for the small size of the monitor when shooting at long ranges.

But long-range shooting (and especially spotting) is already too easy in the game as there is no wind, the weapon is always perfectly aligned, you have no shakey hands, etc.
Couldn't the lack of an iron-sight zoom feature make up for that? (not that I think that the size of the front sight is a problem)
 
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#86
No I never said it's "not realistic", don't put words in my mouth. I said it doesn't change the realism of the game in any way.

I rather not have artificial deficencies of the game, especially when they are annyoing and hindering, balance things out that could easily be done better like making sway more realistic or replacing it with jittering.
 
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#91
In Ravenshield the zoom is another form of iron-sights so to speak. Just as the zoom in the Delta Force games I know (DF2; DF:Land Warrior).
In newer Delta Force games (Team Sabre or the one with the disneyland-drive vehicles (forgot the name)) the iron-sight-zoom is needed or else everyone would just shoot with the crosshairs, because that's almost as accurate.
So the zoom is more like an artificial bonus, than a realistic feature.

In Flashpoint there is no iron-sight-zoom either. Just the regular zoom so you still have to shoot and hit with the regular FoV, just as in RO.
Its just easier to spot people with the zoom in Flashpoint, but as I said before, making spotting people in RO even easier than it already is is not a good idea (in my opinion).
Unfortunately I don't know ArmA because my computer is too bad, but I think its similar to Flashpoint in this regard.
 
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#92
I think there should be a zoom because if your making the argument that your eyes do not zoom in real life, then you should also look at the position of the gun when you are looking through the iron sights, unless you are a cyclops it is not that realistic. I think the zoom (just a little bit) would be a good idea but they also shouldnt change the gun being in the middle because for gameplay its just better.

I mean if you go outside and just start measuring how far people are from you , using your eyes, you will notice in real life you can see further than in the game, so if you wanna get realistic they should either make the players bigger (i dont think its the right choice) or the maps smaller (would like it but still dont think its the right choice) or a slight zoom while you are looking down the iron sights.
 
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#94
Murphy said:
In Flashpoint there is no iron-sight-zoom either. Just the regular zoom so you still have to shoot and hit with the regular FoV, just as in RO
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In Flashpoint you can zoom without necessarily enabling IS, true, but that doesn't change the fact that you always zoom-in slightly when in IS, for the reasons i posted. Show me a pciture of non-zoomed IS in OFP if you want to prove me wrong. ArmA even has two magnification levels in IS, which I think is over the top.
Delta Force series have iron sights for the exact same reasons, no matter how much you love to debate artificial bonuses again. While the games like BHD are more arcade than RO the iron sights function does pretty much what ROs iron sights do, plus the slight zoom.

I could go on: America's Army, Vietcong series, Ghost Recon... you name them. INF lacked them, a pity because their iron sights are even cruder due to the engine, but people were uncomfortable with that so they were post-added... without the game becoming "unrealistic".

I don't want every shooter to be the same, but IS zoom is simply a feature that should be standard for these types of games imo. Like leaning or, in the near future, being able to rest weapons on obstacles. Oh and to those that would stop playing: Jesus, you got very weird priorities.
 
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#97
Oldih said:
When using ironsight in OFP, the 'zoom' level is generally the same as you can use RMB to zoom.

It is weapon based (or addon based), but FYI.
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With WGL or FFUR, yes.
With the regular OPF the iron-sight zoom is barely noticable (if at all. Its been a while).

@KrazyKraut:
But what does that have to do with the points brought forward in this thread?
Just because it "works well" in other games (of which I told you that most of them just use the zoom as an artificial bonus - yes, I love to call it, because that's what it is) doesn't mean its realistic, or that we need it in RO.

All of the games you mentioned have crosshairs too, so? That has absolutely nothing to do with our points.
 
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#98
Oh the zoom is definetly noticable, anything else would be a lie. Just look how big their front sights are compared to ROs. Besides being simple bitmaps, they're much closer to the "real deal". Trying to bend everything to suit our pov, are we? OFP has IS zoom = fact. But hey go on with your artificial bogus. It's nothing but YOUR opinion, not fact. No matter how often you repeat it. An opinion by someone who has never shot a rifle in real life, am i right?

And yeah crosshairs have nothing to do with "our" points... that's right. I named these games as examples for how strong IS zoom is most of the time ... around 1.2-1.5x. To show that there is a benefit from having even slight IS zoom (or else these games wouldn't have them). Besides that you can deactivate x-hairs in most of these games, not that it had anything to do with the discussion at hand.
 
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#99
KrazyKraut said:
Oh the zoom is definetly noticable, anything else would be a lie. Just look how big their front sights are compared to ROs. Besides being simple bitmaps, they're much closer to the "real deal". Trying to bend everything to suit our pov, are we?
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Haha. Yeah. Have you ever aimed with the sights of any AK weapon in OPF (doesn't matter which one, because the sight texture is the same for everyone) ?
The front sight is fat. Really fat. But as the weapons aren't nearly as accurate as the ones in RO it doesn't matter, because if you miss your shot you don't immediately blame the front sight for it, but you accept that you missed.
Who's bending here now?
 
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#100
Iron sigths

Iron sigths

I start this up By asking if iron sights could be added to the game with some zoom not a lot maybe 1.2 to 1.5. I ask if some was added would be good for us older guys that do not see as good as we once did.But when he day is done it's up to The game maker to say yes or no. We can all say what we thank about what would make the game somewhat better.But as i see it TW has gave us One great game to have Fun with.Not one thing is cut in stone about this game. All the maps are great.Game play with other on line is great.People are very helpful on the forums and online.What i have did to inprove the game for me is New glass help New V.card is on the way will make it easy to see what i am not.Old Card 5700 going to 7600GT.
 
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