• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

all these guys say, "fix my Tiger"

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Sort by date Sort by votes
#81
AGTMADCAT said:
Also, Theodrake mentioned that the German tanks were better than the Russian tanks at the begining of the war. This is, to put it mildly, a load of crap. The German equipment was woefully unprepared to fight the superior russian tanks. In almost every area they were outclassed.
Click to expand...

No I didn't. What I was attempting was to point out that the German crews were better trained and more experienced. Both of which are not reflected in this game.

Likewise, the T-34, which was comprably armoured (though with far more slope), was better armed, weighed only slightly more, had much wider tracks (meaning it handled Russian terrain FAR better than the german tanks), ran on diesel (making it far less prone to engine fires), and generally was just a nasty, nasty suprise for the Germans.
Click to expand...

I find the engine fires idea to be ironic as the nickname for the T34/76 crews was something like flamers. In a book on the East front a tank commander related a story where the political officer was explaining to him that 9 out of the 10 tanks in his group had been destroyed that day. The commander said he apologized to the officer for not burning that day and would do his best to burn tomorrow. It was stated that if a shell penetrated a T34/76 it would most likely catch fire and burn. That the crew had a couple of minutes to bail out before being burned alived. He also said that once a shell had penetrated the tank that it was more then likely that the hatches would have jammed shut. Also the drivers of T34/76s said the only thing they could see was dirt and smoke from the motor making it very difficult to drive.

I'm actually somewhat suprised that no one has mentioned radios yet...
Click to expand...

Actually in another thread I did and was asking for a mod that allowed local only VoIP for allies and no mod for Germans to reflect germans having radios and russians early in the war sometimes only having flags.

To the point in another response where someone said there is no documented proof that it was because russian couldn't reload as good as germans. The point is the devs decided to make an average best guess to how fast could a gunner reload the main gun. I haven't yet seen any claim that they have historical data on how long it takes to reload and what was the average reload rate in battle. What I'm saying is to simulate green troops increase the reload time. How is that any different then only requiring a 2 man crew on a IS-2 instead of the 4 man. The devs made choices to simulate a tank. What is wrong with in early maps where we give the russians twice as many tanks, lowering their reload times to see if that can give us an early war simulation that give a realistic feel.
 
Upvote 0
#82
Theodrake said:
Actually in another thread I did and was asking for a mod that allowed local only VoIP for allies and no mod for Germans to reflect germans having radios and russians early in the war sometimes only having flags.
Click to expand...

And to whom would this be fun? A show of hands: Who wants to play the part of the deaf, dumb, and blind Russian tanker? (i.e. buttoned up, charging without overwatch, and with no team VOIP)

Seriously?! And you realize this localized VoIP would be overcome really easy by clans and such via Teamspeak. All you're doing is gimping Russian tanks for people playing on public servers.

These proposed "fixes" of giming the Russians via reload times and VoIP limitations don't seem very fun for the Russian player. Then again, I get the impression that the people proposing these "fixes" will never play the part of the gimped Russian.
 
Upvote 0
#83
raydude said:
And to whom would this be fun? A show of hands: Who wants to play the part of the deaf, dumb, and blind Russian tanker? (i.e. buttoned up, charging without overwatch, and with no team VOIP)

Seriously?! And you realize this localized VoIP would be overcome really easy by clans and such via Teamspeak. All you're doing is gimping Russian tanks for people playing on public servers.

These proposed "fixes" of giming the Russians via reload times and VoIP limitations don't seem very fun for the Russian player. Then again, I get the impression that the people proposing these "fixes" will never play the part of the gimped Russian.
Click to expand...

I would. If this was balanced. If it can't be balanced, then of course not. I'm not proposing a map where the Germans are guaranteed a win. I want a map where the germans must play as a team to win against an over whelming force of russians.
 
Upvote 0
#84
I know I'm coming into this thread waaayyyy late; I ran across it while looking for information on Carius' engagement at Malinauka (Malinava) in '44. In particular I was looking for a map or something (air recon phot, anything!) of the battlefield at that time for the purpose of creating an RO verison of the fight.

In reading through the thread, and after playing RO for some time now, I believe a solution to the problem of Tigers being 'dumbed down' and T-34's being 'uber-ed' is to enforce an in-game mod in which the Soviets must fight with hatches closed (except for those in a Commander slot); just this alone will even up the percieved disparity in T-34 vs Tiger abilities, and allow for maps to be made relflecting more accurate numbers of opposing tanks. During the war (and continuing until very recently) Soviet tactical doctrine was indeed to fight buttoned up- I suspect many reasons for this, not the least of which is the psychological effect of seeing dozens of your comrades burning in destroyed tanks!

In any case, in the battle at hand, perhaps there could be only two Tigers on the map facing off against 16 T-34/85's and one IS-2- no respawns, and the Soviets fight buttoned up, true to the then-current tactical doctrine. Granted this puts the Soviets at a disadvantage in terms of the oft-spoke 'situational awareness', but the trade-off is the Commander (one slot) has VOIP available when in reality they probably wouldn't have even had many radios at all. (Texting could *almost* simulate signal flags and good old-fashioned yelling "He's over HERE!")- and the Commander might have the ability to unbutton as well. Until he's killed, of course, and there's no respawn.

On many of the maps in play now, I'd say to enforce the tactical doctrine and allow, on the Soviet side, only Commanders to unbutton and use VOIP (to simulate the signal flag thingie) while other tank crews must stay buttoned up (although they can, of course, use the view slits) and text any messages. Against this, perhaps sharply reduce the amount of German tanks available but leave everything else as is.

This could be done in-game as is, without enforcing it, if players agreed to it beforehand and honored their agreement during play. Of course, it might not be as much fun for the Soviets, fighting as such, but it certainly would come a lot closer to simulating actual battle conditions than is the present norm. I'm thinking, however, this might be something best reserved for private-server playtesting and such between trusted groups to see if it 'works' and is a playable formula.
 
Upvote 0
#86
I gather the 'Steel Beasts' mutator was intended to do just that, but from what I picked up in the thread on the subject it was withdrawn due to making German tanks indeed beasts to deal with, while giving the Soviets basically nothing. I don't think I ever played in that particular mutator before it was generally withdrawn (I may be playing it on some maps now and not realizing it, though), but for grins and giggles it sounded like great fun for the German player unless he is waaayyyy outnumbered.
 
Upvote 0
#87
Lets see...

The best tank (or perhaps the more decisive) of the WWII was without doubt the t-34/85, but this, doesnt mean that in one duel between this tank and a tiger, the t-34 would win. The normal finish should be a destroyed russian tank.

When we speak about "a good tank", normally speaks about cannon, armor...but in the russian front, the mobility was important, the mechanism fails of german tanks were very important, the amount of fuel and autonomy of tanks were important. The russian winter that freezed the german tanks..

t-34/85 were cheap to construct, Tiger and panther very expensive, t-34 were fiable machines, with high autonomy, with simple mechanism and with pieces that can be changed from other machines (compatibles). German tanks needed especific pieces, their mechanism easly broke, they used a lot of fuel, and they had low autonomy.

The german Panther tank appears because German needed them very fast after looking how easly the t-34 destroyed the main tank in german panzer divisions: no tiger, no panther, the Panzer IV. The acelerated developement of panther, and this is the reason the first ones failed so much. the later versions were excelent, but german couldnt make in significant amounts, no fuel, no enought industries and materials.

I mean, historically are a lot of points impossible to carry them to a game.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#88
xka said:
Lets see...

The best tank (or perhaps the more decisive) of the WWII was without doubt the t-34/85, but this, doesnt mean that in one duel between this tank and a tiger, the t-34 would win. The normal finish should be a destroyed russian tank.

When we speak about "a good tank", normally speaks about cannon, armor...but in the russian front, the mobility was important, the mechanism fails of german tanks were very important, the amount of fuel and autonomy of tanks were important. The russian winter that freezed the german tanks..

t-34/85 were cheap to construct, Tiger and panther very expensive, t-34 were fiable machines, with high autonomy, with simple mechanism and with pieces that can be changed from other machines (compatibles). German tanks needed especific pieces, their mechanism easly broke, they used a lot of fuel, and they had low autonomy.

The german Panther tank appears because German needed them very fast after looking how easly the t-34 destroyed the main tank in german panzer divisions: no tiger, no panther, the Panzer IV. The acelerated developement of panther, and this is the reason the first ones failed so much. the later versions were excelent, but german couldnt make in significant amounts, no fuel, no enought industries and materials.

I mean, historically are a lot of points impossible to carry them to a game.
Click to expand...

This is the right knowledge. I have nothing to add.
 
Upvote 0
#89
I agree- overall, taking all factors into consideration, the T-34 series of tanks was the single most successful design of the war, hands down. Individually, they might not have been technical marvels or even very advanced, but when taken as a whole production run as well as their field performance in what they were designed for it becomes very clear they performed admirably.

I saw an episode on 'The Military Channel' giving a rundown on the Top Ten tanks of all time, taking all these factors in to account- and the lineup? I believe it was #3 going to the Tiger 1, #2 going to the M-1 Abrams, and the #1 spot going to the T-34.
 
Upvote 0
#91
It *would* be interesting to model fuel consumption; if actual mileage could be represented in-game as a 'time limit' it would make things interesting indeed. If, for instance, a T-34 could be in play for 10 minutes tops before having to refuel (at a supply depot) it would make for interesting tactical decisions. Do you stay near a depot and top off, or do you run out to your limit and become a bunker?

Unfortunately, modeling this sort of thing might well run into the dreaded 'server crunch' that each little extra piece of information adds in. Also, given the rate of in-game tank 'deaths' I'm not so sure very many people would live long enough to run out of gas! Interesting thought, though.
 
Upvote 0
#92
Bikewer said:
However, how do you translate this to good gameplay?
One "realistic" Tiger per spawn vs. 17 "realistic" Russian tanks?

There are always going to be compromises with realism and good gameplay.
Click to expand...

This kind of thinking makes no sense to me. If you build a realistic sim or game, the gameplay develops to master it and the tactics follow to counter.
 
Upvote 0
#95
K Rohm said:
It *would* be interesting to model fuel consumption; if actual mileage could be represented in-game as a 'time limit' it would make things interesting indeed. If, for instance, a T-34 could be in play for 10 minutes tops before having to refuel (at a supply depot) it would make for interesting tactical decisions. Do you stay near a depot and top off, or do you run out to your limit and become a bunker?

Unfortunately, modeling this sort of thing might well run into the dreaded 'server crunch' that each little extra piece of information adds in. Also, given the rate of in-game tank 'deaths' I'm not so sure very many people would live long enough to run out of gas! Interesting thought, though.
Click to expand...

I think this idea would be avaliable only with larger scenarios but this are some tanks fuel autonomies:
Information source:http://usuarios.lycos.es/seelowe/UntitledFrameset-3.htm

German tanks:
Panzer III: 175 kms.
Stug III: 150 kms
Panzer IV: 200 kms
Tiger I (panzer VI) : 100 kms.
Panther (panzer V): 177 kms.
Tiger II (panzer VI B): 110 kms


Russian Tanks:
t-70: 360 kms.
T-34: 186 kms
KV serie: 150 kms.
IS 2: 240 kms
Su-76: 450 kms.
ISU 152: 180 kms.

And remember German tanks used gasoline's motor and russian diesel oil motors (i dont know if in any model).

I thing it could be carry to the game could be this:
Some tank model could suffer tecnical damage (instead of time in battlefield, mor etime movin..more possiblities to brake), but no disable the tank, only making them slower,or perhaps breaking motor), engeeners should can repair them. To compensate this, german tanks, more proclive to brake, should be harder to destroy. But again, i think that could be only posible in larger scenarios.
 
Upvote 0
#96
Sichartshofen said:
Because it's so fun to fight soviet tanks that can deflect anything when angled. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

If all you ever do is play Germans, yeah, I could see where that'd get frustrating. Try playing as the Russians and see how often you die, though. What you're failing to realize if you only ever play on one side is that this isn't a problem that's limited to the Russian side. It's a problem with the armor system as a whole.

But actually I'm talking about annoyingly tedious things like random weapon jams and breakdowns. Things that are beyond your control where the game takes over and says "HAHA!! You're screwed!" Or for needlessly tedious and boring things like playing as literally nothing but the loader for a tank.

Plus, there's no way to balance the notion of "Well, we'll have VOIP for local use only on the Russian side when you're in a tank, and then only when you're unbuttoned as a commander to simulate using flags. But the Germans can do whatever they want." Why? Simple. Because it'd allow for one-man German crews to have way better communication AND maneuverability, whereas the Russian teams would have to stop, unbutton, and then hope people are around in order to communicate with teammates.

No thanks. I'll pass on that kind of "realism".
 
Upvote 0
#98
Solo4114 said:
Plus, there's no way to balance the notion of "Well, we'll have VOIP for local use only on the Russian side when you're in a tank, and then only when you're unbuttoned as a commander to simulate using flags. But the Germans can do whatever they want." Why? Simple. Because it'd allow for one-man German crews to have way better communication AND maneuverability, whereas the Russian teams would have to stop, unbutton, and then hope people are around in order to communicate with teammates.

No thanks. I'll pass on that kind of "realism".
Click to expand...

Ahh- a point I had overlooked is the issue of crews. IMHO tanks should have a minimum of two crewmembers to function properly. Granted, it would take away the uber-ness factor for those who like to play the 'lone wolf' sort of game, but just this would go a long way to making RO tanks more realistic. Perhaps having a server-side mutator that could be set for tanks being 'activated' when two members are aboard might help.

Of course, this gets into the issue of 'what if the TC is killed and the Driver is still alive? Can he still drive the tank- and why couldn't he switch positions and man the gun?" which brings up the question of delay times for switching positions in the tank. A perfectly valid point, but I doubt many- if any- actual cases of a tank in combat being crewed effectively by one man are going to be found.

Realism vs. Playability- decisions, decisions. But I do see your point, Solo; I hadn't thought of it that way.

(BTW- my slant on the no-radio Russians was to allow those in Commander class to use VOIP for broadcasting; Commanders could, naturally, talk to each other, but everything else would be one-way. Everybody, though, is free to use texting which was my take on the signal flag thing. And, yes, keeping to contemporary tactical doctrine (in RO terms), Commanders only would have the ability to unbutton and get a better battlefield picture. This is not meant to make thing 'easier' for the Germans in any way, but rather to provide a better picture of the circumstances the Russian tankers fought under- this, just as in the war, would be balanced out by having vastly superior numbers over the German forces.)
 
Upvote 0
#100
Solo4114 said:
If all you ever do is play Germans, yeah, I could see where that'd get frustrating. Try playing as the Russians and see how often you die, though. What you're failing to realize if you only ever play on one side is that this isn't a problem that's limited to the Russian side. It's a problem with the armor system as a whole.

But actually I'm talking about annoyingly tedious things like random weapon jams and breakdowns. Things that are beyond your control where the game takes over and says "HAHA!! You're screwed!" Or for needlessly tedious and boring things like playing as literally nothing but the loader for a tank.

Plus, there's no way to balance the notion of "Well, we'll have VOIP for local use only on the Russian side when you're in a tank, and then only when you're unbuttoned as a commander to simulate using flags. But the Germans can do whatever they want." Why? Simple. Because it'd allow for one-man German crews to have way better communication AND maneuverability, whereas the Russian teams would have to stop, unbutton, and then hope people are around in order to communicate with teammates.

No thanks. I'll pass on that kind of "realism".
Click to expand...
This has what to do with invincible soviet tanks? Ever taken a look at the armor code?

PzIII
// Armor
FrontArmorFactor=3
SideArmorFactor=3
RearArmorFactor=2

T34/76 and 85
// Armor
FrontArmorFactor=11
SideArmorFactor=6
RearArmorFactor=5

Yea, thats really balanced.
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Community News
Forums
Merch
Menu