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Red Orchestra and the Ethics of World War II Game

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Eater1

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Mar 22, 2006
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I've played RO (game and mod) since about a year before the retail game shipped, and I've always been curious about something:
How does the RO development team justify the decision to create a game based on the events of one of the most horrible wars in human history?
Let me clarify - I for one enjoy RO as a game a lot - as far as shooters go, it's one of the few multiplayer games that makes a genuine effort at realism, and I find the pace of the game to be enjoyable. However, I don't think that I myself would ever make a game based on World War II, or any other serious recent-history conflict, if it was my choice (though I have done some work on a few mods for other games that involve the Napoleonic wars). Why? Well, it seems a bit to touch a bit too closely on real world problems, and by doing so, it trivializes them. For instance, one would never make a game about having to escape a concentration camp (or a gulag... or, for that matter, a game where one has to guard said concentration camp and prevent inmates from escaping). So is a game about war that different? After all, people were thrust into both situations involuntarily, and suffered in both of them. That is not to say that the concentration camp stands on the same moral footing as a war, just that their portrayal in a game is not all that different in the sense that it would trivialize the very real human suffering experienced in both of them, and so recently at that.
As evidence of this, one has only to look at the RO forums and see all of the fiery rhetoric people use in discussion of Soviet and German equipment and tactics - the number of people who side with one country or the other and see nothing wrong with flinging insults at people who fought and died just sixty years ago. Such criticism might be suitable for an academic who has seriously studied the subject (and also is able to control his emotions a bit better), but these people don't post such stuff out of interest in the historical event - rather, they post it in the same way that (for instance) on the PlanetSide forums one might post about how a certain weapon should be nerfed, or something along those lines. The very real suffering is trivialized by being placed into a game.
Now, I would very much like to hear something like "we don't see it that way" - and I imagine a lot of people don't, - but I thought perhaps I could get some discussion on the subject and see what people think about this rather thorny issue.
I'm specifically posting this on the RO board, because while there are numerous WW2 games, most successful games were initiated for commercial reasons, while RO was a free mod, and thus must have been started for other causes, with the possibility that such an ethical dilemma may have been considered.
 
However, I don't think that I myself would ever make a game based on World War II, or any other serious recent-history conflict, if it was my choice (though I have done some work on a few mods for other games that involve the Napoleonic wars).

Wait, so how are the Napoleonic wars any less terrible or any less historically important? ALL war is a terrible thing. When in your opinion does a war become old enough that it can be portrayed in a purely entertainment manner like a videogame?

Furthermore, I don't think playing a video game about WW2 is any worse than war movies that distort the facts so much for entertainment, profit, and propaghanda, and those were being made during the war. RO with its realistic violence and weapons does much more justice to the subject matter than most media, whether it be a movie or a game or a novel...

As evidence of this, one has only to look at the RO forums and see all of the fiery rhetoric people use in discussion of Soviet and German equipment and tactics - the number of people who side with one country or the other and see nothing wrong with flinging insults at people who fought and died just sixty years ago.

It's up to the individual player to educate himself and maintain a grasp on reality. German/Russian fanboys are unfortunate but I don't think RO is causing this trivializing of history so much as it is stimulating interest in the period. This leads to those who don't know much on the subject to jump to such conclusions.
 
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Wait, so how are the Napoleonic wars any less terrible or any less historically important? ALL war is a terrible thing. When in your opinion does a war become old enough that it can be portrayed in a purely entertainment manner like a videogame?

Furthermore, I don't think playing a video game about WW2 is any worse than war movies that distort the facts so much for entertainment, profit, and propaghanda, and those were being made during the war. RO with its realistic violence and weapons does much more justice to the subject matter than most media, whether it be a movie or a game or a novel...



It's up to the individual player to educate himself and maintain a grasp on reality. German/Russian fanboys are unfortunate but I don't think RO is causing this trivializing of history so much as it is stimulating interest in the period. This leads to those who don't know much on the subject to jump to such conclusions.

well said Kurtz! And I agree with you 100%
 
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At risk of sounding cliche, "those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."

The sad part of RO:O and all other historical (however loosly) shooters is that they can give only the barest taste of the true nature of war. War is not pretty, it is not glorious, it is not always noble. Yet despite this it is sometimes necessary.

Right now I am playing Brothers-in-Arms again. While I play I also look at the historical content they included and try to imagine what it was like for the men who were there. I am fortunate that I have family members who can tell me what WWII was like, from the perspectives of infantrymen and airmen who served in both Europe and the Pacific. Getting them to talk about their experiences can be tough, sometimes, since the memories invoked aren't always pleasant. Yet hopefully their memories and those of their fellows (of ALL of WWII's participants) can keep us from ever having to repeat their endeavours.

The only way to trivialize history is to ignore it, to sweep it under the rug and forget about it, so to speak. Even now there are schools where WWII is little more than a single days discussion in history class. What little that is taught is rife with error, and trivialized so badly that it has little resemblance to the events that actually occurred.

On the rampant nationalism that always seems to rear its head I have only this to say: Nobody has the right to dengrate another's nation until they can prove theirs to be free of any fault. While I am an American, and proud to be so, I have no right to insult, say, a Frenchman for being French, A Russian for being Russian, an Englishman for being English, a German for being German, and so on, and so forth. Those who do insult other's nations should be taken out behind the woodshed and taught what it means to be polite, be it at the stroke of a leather belt, a wooden paddle - or the taste of bare knuckles.
 
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Prehistoric wars, Roman wars, WWII, Vietnam war, Gulf war, where is the difference? Here we go again, why there is war, why there are war games? Why we are what we are? Why we watch violence from movies and TV and play violent games? These same questions raising over and over again. I tell you why, humans are still those same prehistoric hunters and have to satisfy their primal needs somehow. Why can we still commit these horrified crimes after thousands of years education and technology, everything is evolving around us, but what we are going to do? Nothing becouse we aren't evolving, evolution isn't so fast. We are part of nature and we can not change that anyway :)

There is a game called Prisoner of War where you are trying to escape from internment camp.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/prisonerofwar/index.html
 
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[Comments edited by me for being too preachy- KR]

Instead...

Think 'cowboys and indians' in the back yard, but with more expensive cap guns and sticks. That's what we're doing- nothing more, nothing less.

As for 'glorifying war' or 'trivializing' armed conflict, I give that idea a very low rating. Certainly, there are those who will never hear a shot fired in anger- or ever pull a trigger, period- while there are those of us who HAVE seen The Beast up close and personal. For the first group, war cannot be trivialized because they have been blessed to not have had to see it and have no basis for comparison; for the second group, nothing can trivialize it BECAUSE we have seen it and know there IS no comparison. Neither group is right, neither group is wrong; that's just The Way It Is.
 
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[Comments edited by me for being too preachy- KR]

Instead...

Think 'cowboys and indians' in the back yard, but with more expensive cap guns and sticks. That's what we're doing- nothing more, nothing less.

As for 'glorifying war' or 'trivializing' armed conflict, I give that idea a very low rating. Certainly, there are those who will never hear a shot fired in anger- or ever pull a trigger, period- while there are those of us who HAVE seen The Beast up close and personal. For the first group, war cannot be trivialized because they have been blessed to not have had to see it and have no basis for comparison; for the second group, nothing can trivialize it BECAUSE we have seen it and know there IS no comparison. Neither group is right, neither group is wrong; that's just The Way It Is.

This game is far from glorifying World War 2....... Far from it....

War is NEVER pretty, fun, glorious, joyful, or self justice! War is war... nothing more to it...

One group of people have an idea, and the other group opposes that idea, that is war.... And so goes the facts of war, there are no good guys and bad guys.... Just soldiers fighting.... The soldiers have no opinion, they are pawns being forced to battle, being controlled by the group who either agree or oppose an idea..

While most World War 2 games can totally blow facts way out of proportion.... Red Orchestra, simply shows war through the soldiers view.... They have a set of objectives, they have a weapon, and its either kill or be killed.... Thats how RO plays.... there is no glory.... no justice.... just completing your objectives, working with your team to be victorious......

DO NOT get so over worked about RO! Its by far the best damn game I have ever played... being from the FPS perspective, the WWII perspective, the realistic perspective, and the historical accuracy perspective... The sounds of the environment, as well as in game are AMAZING!!!

LONG LIVE RO!! :D
 
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For me to be interested in buying a game, it must have an intriguing setting, who wants to buy a game with a boring story, and bland surroundings?

I never enjoyed Space/Sci-Fi shooters, I cannot get into the lasergun Halo style games. Others may love them, but I don't.

No other FPS I have played has the great weapons characteristics and feel that RO's have. The SMG's have a bit too much recoil imo but that topic is a dead horse.

The 1 shot kill style of RO made me develop a run between cover, duck my head to catch my breath habit. Instead of the constant monotonous run and gunning.

If there were a modern "make believe" conflict FPS out there that I liked, I would play that I suppose.

I think a game developer should make their games with whatever back-story they want, and let the gamers decide what they like. There is a game rating system in place

One thing about the reality of war RO kinda gets across, is how easily a person could be killed, and how short the life expectancy for the average soldier may be in combat.

The game may actually spark an interest in the Historical Events that inspired the title with the people who play it. How is that bad?

Playing games that are inspired by horrific, tragic events is a better pastime than crack :p

And last I heard my Forefathers fought, so i could have the Freedom to post nOObizms on teh intarwerb... one nOOb may post something bogus only to be corrected by Haywood Jablowme PHD, and then the 'burned one' has learned his fact of the day. Awesome!!
 
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Eater1, I see very well what you mean, and at times I have also felt a bit ashamed to be having fun killing people in a game - especially in such a realistic game as RO.

However, games like COD, IL2 and RO have awakened my interest in WWII, and caused me to read quite a number of books on the subject. These have learned me a whole lot about the war, and also about the good things in life. They have learned me to appreciate things we normally take for granted, basic things, like water, food, safety and freedom from oppression.

And as have been said: The worst thing we can ever do is forget.
 
Upvote 0
I've played RO (game and mod) since about a year before the retail game shipped, and I've always been curious about something:
How does the RO development team justify the decision to create a game based on the events of one of the most horrible wars in human history?
Let me clarify - I for one enjoy RO as a game a lot - as far as shooters go, it's one of the few multiplayer games that makes a genuine effort at realism, and I find the pace of the game to be enjoyable. However, I don't think that I myself would ever make a game based on World War II, or any other serious recent-history conflict, if it was my choice (though I have done some work on a few mods for other games that involve the Napoleonic wars). Why? Well, it seems a bit to touch a bit too closely on real world problems, and by doing so, it trivializes them. For instance, one would never make a game about having to escape a concentration camp (or a gulag... or, for that matter, a game where one has to guard said concentration camp and prevent inmates from escaping). So is a game about war that different? After all, people were thrust into both situations involuntarily, and suffered in both of them. That is not to say that the concentration camp stands on the same moral footing as a war, just that their portrayal in a game is not all that different in the sense that it would trivialize the very real human suffering experienced in both of them, and so recently at that.
As evidence of this, one has only to look at the RO forums and see all of the fiery rhetoric people use in discussion of Soviet and German equipment and tactics - the number of people who side with one country or the other and see nothing wrong with flinging insults at people who fought and died just sixty years ago. Such criticism might be suitable for an academic who has seriously studied the subject (and also is able to control his emotions a bit better), but these people don't post such stuff out of interest in the historical event - rather, they post it in the same way that (for instance) on the PlanetSide forums one might post about how a certain weapon should be nerfed, or something along those lines. The very real suffering is trivialized by being placed into a game.
Now, I would very much like to hear something like "we don't see it that way" - and I imagine a lot of people don't, - but I thought perhaps I could get some discussion on the subject and see what people think about this rather thorny issue.
I'm specifically posting this on the RO board, because while there are numerous WW2 games, most successful games were initiated for commercial reasons, while RO was a free mod, and thus must have been started for other causes, with the possibility that such an ethical dilemma may have been considered.

What ethical dilemma? Trolling post:mad:
 
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However, games like COD, IL2 and RO have awakened my interest in WWII, and caused me to read quite a number of books on the subject. These have learned me a whole lot about the war, and also about the good things in life. They have learned me to appreciate things we normally take for granted, basic things, like water, food, safety and freedom from oppression.

And as have been said: The worst thing we can ever do is forget.

I agree with you red star, this game and the community has really sparked my interest in the truth of what WWII was all about. I did some reading on the eastern front (Antony Beevers "Stalingrad", and "The Fall of Berlin") both stories really opened my eyes about the everyday horrors of war. After reading those books (or other similar titles) you can't have anything but a huge amount of both pity and respect for the soldiers we are portraying in the game. If anything it has made the game even more interesting for me, and far from trivializing the actual history.
 
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I like to read about WWII, and i play games since more than 15 years ago..Let me say what i think is ethically awful:

-Its awfull forget these war (and so others wars, but this, more)

-Its ethically awfull dont reconice the millions of people who died in this conflict, and the soldiers who fought against horror.

-Its ethically awfull dont know the history of the wwii , because i think is the base to know the last 60 years of history, and know why the wars begins, and know why the things can turn so bad, to so many people, in a so short time period

But...a game???, if the game would heighten some horrible politics of that war..ok, but is not the case i think.

I will say more, games world has advanced, its not only a child world. I want adult games (and not only porn :D ). I want games to make me feel fear, emotions, ethical challenges, not pacmans and arcades. I want inmersion and reallity.

I want games with this calification--> +18, and doesnt mean im a bloody madness, not a sexual pervert, or not a guy who like to kill russians or germans exclusively... im only a gamer that knows what was WWII
 
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personally, in my own opinion i see it like this: if you recreate war to the best you can and to the best of your efforts, and you give people a feeling like they are there, then you make them remember. and in remembering, there is honouring.

for example i'll take Brothers in Arms: its a squadbased shooter where you have to relie on teamwork to get the job done. also, it creates characters you will get to know and like ( like Pvt. Allen and Garnett, or Pvt. Leggett ) and when they die you'll feel pretty bad about it. for one, it was your fault they died: to bad they come back the next mission, but you get the idea. somewhere in the storyline Allen and Garnett actually do die, and it seems its Leggetts fault: result is that everybody in the squad really dislikes him now, you'll overhear a conversation about this situation, and this other soldier gets pissed off and starts screaming more and more up to the point where he is making accusations: " HOW DO WE KNOW HE DIDNT JUST LEAVE THEM THERE TO DIE??" and you see Leggett flinch out of guilt or sadness over the fact he lost the trust of his squadmates.
next to that, you cant play it run and gun the way you can play Call of Duty, so you have to be carefull. and even when you dont die with one shot, it gets the feeling you're in a war quite right.

The same goes for Red Orchestra: how many of us havent felt 'there' when playing this game? my dad startled me once when he came in the room, i thought he was a russian trying to bayonet me. :rolleyes:

Call of Duty is just a mindless action shooter, wich only cares to get the uniforms right and then says its realistic and 'as close as you want to get to war'. In my personal opinion CoD doesnt honour the remembrance of the soldiers who fought and died in the war, the soldiers in your squad are meaningless faces, and so are the enemy and they die in such huge numbers, there is nowhere to get really personal into anyone, not a teammate, nor an enemy. therefore, CoD ****s BALLS.

In my personal opinion, Red Orchestra and Brothers in Arms are really the only games honouring the soldiers: BiA for its feeling, and the way it is all presented, and RO for its more realistic gameplay and feeling, also giving you the feeling you are there.

And on not feeling bad about hurting pixels, thats the whole point i guess... to you these are meaningless, but they are representing actual soldiers in that time. it should have some meaning to you.
 
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I think i understand what your trying to say but i dont agree with it. (no,i aint gona flame anyone, just my opinion)
If you were to take what you are saying and apply it to everything there would be no games,movis or music.
Take any game, if what you are saying is true they should have been banned because of gun crime, drugs,hookers, car crime ect.(vice city, im lookin at you)
Take rap music, should be banned because of the same resons and racism.
TV and movies...........same again.
Its all real life stuff.
The fact is the world is a bad place and we as people take an intest in bad things.
RO (and may other games) are based on true (bad) events. by playing it im not saying war is good or bad. im saying i have an interesrt in this time line,want to be entertained and hope to understand it.
A wise bloke once said "war is only glorious to those who have never seen it".
but a wiser man also said "only the dead have truly seen the end of war".
Bad things happen,always will and should be rememberd.
I belive that by playing games like this and others, in some small way i am honering those who faught and died for there country,no matter what country that was.the memory of what they done should be remeberd.
History, no matter how bad, should never be forgoten so it can never be repeated.
 
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Let me throw in a semi-official Tripwire view... well, official because I am one of the leads, but only "semi" because this is my view and may (or may not) be shared wholly, or in part, by the other leads (don't you love weasel-words?):

I've had this debate in a number of forms over the years. One end of the spectrum of views will have it that the deaths of tens of millions of people is trivialised and insulted by the creation of a game (or even a movie) about the topic. I can fully understand this view: if someone chose to make some trivial and silly movie/game about Ypres or many other battles where my own relatives died, I'd feel the same.

However, we take the view that we are neither trivialising death, nor glorifying war. This is part of the reason for the "gritty, harcore" style of RO - war is hell. Death is unpleasant under any circumstances.

We also have a belief that we can make some inroads into educating people about the conflict. I'd like to think that a lot of the people who have played the game have absorbed a least something about the conflict - and the terrible cost of it in human suffering.

We won't pretend that RO is intended as an educational tool - but we do hope that it catalyses some interest and further reading by a few people.

Hope that helps :)
 
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