The topic of whether the average German citizen knew of the Holocaust has been a matter of great debate for some time now. But, were Soviet citizens at the time familiar with Stalin's atrocities? I think it's pretty likley that they weren't -- many of the people killed by Stalin died as a result of intentional famines, which would be easy for the government to explain as a legitimate famine, especially because the news media infrastructure in the Soviet Union was much less developed than in the rest of Europe, and what news media was available was completely controlled by the government.
Did the average Soviet citizen in 1940 know of Stalin's atrocities?
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If you'd like an insightful look into the Soviet information limitation of communist society the I'd suggest reading 'Ivans War'
I'm reading it at the moment and it is a true eyeopener in relation to what way things were run for the average citizen.
I'm reading it at the moment and it is a true eyeopener in relation to what way things were run for the average citizen.
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My guess? They knew that things were better for upper-level party members. I would say that people who did see things they weren't supposed to were either intimidated or 'decided to move away'. The full extent of the damage done by any regime is usually not known until after the fact, and its full impact can be observed over the course of several years if not decades.
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Yeah, when the people comitting the atrocities have 100% control of the media, it's kinda hard to spread the word.
Look how long it took for the whole Chernobyl mess to hit the presses in the USSR. And that's in a time they were a bit more progressive than in Stalin's day.
Look how long it took for the whole Chernobyl mess to hit the presses in the USSR. And that's in a time they were a bit more progressive than in Stalin's day.
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They knew that a whole lot of people are being taken away, sometimes NKVD was right and they were indeed enemies of the state, sometimes it was political repression. Close friends of those people who were repressed understood what happened, but I don't think people knew about the scale of this thing. I've read Starinov's book (he's was one of the best diversions' and partizan movement's tutor) where he told, that people felt in 1938 that something bad is happening.
I haven't read it. In a few words, what does it say?
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Likely the only thing they knew were rumours. Even then the rumours would only spread amongst a few people so some towns/cities might hear them and others not ever hear them. It's kind of difficult to really know anything from rumours though, especially if all the Media never mentions anything about it or outright contradicts it.
IMO, even the German people unlikely knew what was happening there. They certainly knew the Jews(and others) were being carted off to Camps, but they too would only hear of rumours about the Camps. I suspect that when the truth came out they wer both shocked, but somewhat not surprised at the same time.
IMO, even the German people unlikely knew what was happening there. They certainly knew the Jews(and others) were being carted off to Camps, but they too would only hear of rumours about the Camps. I suspect that when the truth came out they wer both shocked, but somewhat not surprised at the same time.
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i think russian and german civilians didn't want to know, even if they knew something was wrong. in those days you could trust no one, if germans parents critiscized the nazi's their brainwashed kids could denounce them to the gestapo.
it is strange how stalin killed 3 times more innocent people than hitler, and most russians still see him as a hero. i even think most russians would denie or minimise those attrocities...
it is strange how stalin killed 3 times more innocent people than hitler, and most russians still see him as a hero. i even think most russians would denie or minimise those attrocities...
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The news of the, for example, large-scale deportations of ethnic groups that Stalin didn't like was, unless I read it wrong, generally airbrushed into something a bit more palatable in the press.
The show-trials and purges were pretty much trumpetted in the press. The aim seems to have been to increase the paranoia - show how insidious the 'revanchist' or 'counter-revolutionary' movement was so that all party members outdo themselves proving that they aren't one of them - usually by pointing the finger at others. Stalin was great at 'divide and conquer' amongst anyone he saw as even a potential threat. He was in the paranoid, megalomaniac's dilemna of needing to assert his complete dominance over his closest advisers and to stifle any independence of thought whilst requiring talent and vision from them.
It appears that the only people he even remotely trusted were some fellow Georgians/Minghrelians such as Beria, although he was probably more tolerated due to his efficiency as an agent of state terror rather than trusted, and some of Stalin's civil war buddies like the mustachioed pillock, Semyon Budyonniy and also Klimenti Voroshilov.
Another thing about Stalin is, to paraphrase Douglas Adams, he wasn't above a bit of vicious anti-semitism in the same way that the sea isn't above the sky. The Show-trials and various other staged events at that time were aimed at old Bolsheviks who were not in Russia during the civil war - and also the so-called 'International Bolsheviks' such as Kamenev, Zinoviev and so on. They were all Jews. As for what happened to Trotsky, another Jew - that is pretty well-known.
I doubt that the quotas that regional NKVD bureaus were given for finding dissidents and the enthusiastic measures that were often taken to beat those quotas were widely advertised. Certainly the death of the disgusting Yagoda, who oversaw much of this, came several years too late for many, many innocent Russians.
For a pretty good introduction to the twisted workings of the Stalin regime, you could do worse than read "The Court of the Red Tsar" by Simon Sebag-Montefiore or, if you can see past the self-serving crap, Sergo Beria's biography of his dad, "Beria".
If you ask Russians today who were alive during the 30's what it was like, many of them have very nostalgic recollections of a country that was developing and industrialising at a very, very fast rate and they are quite proud of that fact. They also tend to talk in rather vague terms of 'counter-revolutionary elements' that were dealt with, adopting the attitude that you couldn't make the omelette without breaking a few eggs. In this respect I would say that there definitely was quite a good cover-up.
Of course, such people are looking back to the days when they were young and so are very often wearing rose-tinted spectacles.
The show-trials and purges were pretty much trumpetted in the press. The aim seems to have been to increase the paranoia - show how insidious the 'revanchist' or 'counter-revolutionary' movement was so that all party members outdo themselves proving that they aren't one of them - usually by pointing the finger at others. Stalin was great at 'divide and conquer' amongst anyone he saw as even a potential threat. He was in the paranoid, megalomaniac's dilemna of needing to assert his complete dominance over his closest advisers and to stifle any independence of thought whilst requiring talent and vision from them.
It appears that the only people he even remotely trusted were some fellow Georgians/Minghrelians such as Beria, although he was probably more tolerated due to his efficiency as an agent of state terror rather than trusted, and some of Stalin's civil war buddies like the mustachioed pillock, Semyon Budyonniy and also Klimenti Voroshilov.
Another thing about Stalin is, to paraphrase Douglas Adams, he wasn't above a bit of vicious anti-semitism in the same way that the sea isn't above the sky. The Show-trials and various other staged events at that time were aimed at old Bolsheviks who were not in Russia during the civil war - and also the so-called 'International Bolsheviks' such as Kamenev, Zinoviev and so on. They were all Jews. As for what happened to Trotsky, another Jew - that is pretty well-known.
I doubt that the quotas that regional NKVD bureaus were given for finding dissidents and the enthusiastic measures that were often taken to beat those quotas were widely advertised. Certainly the death of the disgusting Yagoda, who oversaw much of this, came several years too late for many, many innocent Russians.
For a pretty good introduction to the twisted workings of the Stalin regime, you could do worse than read "The Court of the Red Tsar" by Simon Sebag-Montefiore or, if you can see past the self-serving crap, Sergo Beria's biography of his dad, "Beria".
If you ask Russians today who were alive during the 30's what it was like, many of them have very nostalgic recollections of a country that was developing and industrialising at a very, very fast rate and they are quite proud of that fact. They also tend to talk in rather vague terms of 'counter-revolutionary elements' that were dealt with, adopting the attitude that you couldn't make the omelette without breaking a few eggs. In this respect I would say that there definitely was quite a good cover-up.
Of course, such people are looking back to the days when they were young and so are very often wearing rose-tinted spectacles.
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"Anti-Semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism."
Plus, anti-semitism was punishable by death in USSR.
Plus, one of Stalin's wives was a jew.
80 percent of world's media is in hands of a few north american and west european businessmen. No wonder Rupert Murdoch sound like Bond-villain's name.
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I actually made a bit of a factual error regarding the whereabouts of Zinoviev during the Civil War but I maintain that Stalin was very anti-Jewish, particularly in the later years. Just take a look at the 'Doctor's Plot' if you doubt that. I'm not sure his relationship with Roza Kaganovich counts as much of a marriage.
I am aware of the anti-semitism laws but I think these may have been introduced before Stalin's time and, in his time, used more for repression of Cossacks and other renowned Pogromchiki rather than being an example of his liberal attitude towards Jews. I will have to check though.
Stalin often liked to tap into 'Big Russian' prejudices - odd considering he was Georgian
It is certainly a fact that a majority of the major Bolshevik figures from the revolution were purged from 1936-38 and that very many of them were Jewish. I suppose the question is, "Were they purged for being Jewish or for being Old Bolsheviks?" or maybe the two went so hand-in-hand that the question is moot.
Anyway we are straying into dangerous (i.e. thread-locking) territory here and I would like to see this discussion of the average Soviet Citizen's knowledge of events going on around them continue so hopefully we can steer the topic towards that. Especially if any members have relatives who have specific recollections of the Stalin era.
I am aware of the anti-semitism laws but I think these may have been introduced before Stalin's time and, in his time, used more for repression of Cossacks and other renowned Pogromchiki rather than being an example of his liberal attitude towards Jews. I will have to check though.
Stalin often liked to tap into 'Big Russian' prejudices - odd considering he was Georgian
It is certainly a fact that a majority of the major Bolshevik figures from the revolution were purged from 1936-38 and that very many of them were Jewish. I suppose the question is, "Were they purged for being Jewish or for being Old Bolsheviks?" or maybe the two went so hand-in-hand that the question is moot.
Anyway we are straying into dangerous (i.e. thread-locking) territory here and I would like to see this discussion of the average Soviet Citizen's knowledge of events going on around them continue so hopefully we can steer the topic towards that. Especially if any members have relatives who have specific recollections of the Stalin era.
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Rss, Stalin was anti-semit. The Jews were real lucky that he died in 1953, because he was planning to unleash purges on them - the so-called "Doctors' conspiracy" - somewhere in 1953-1954.
Also, if you read some stories of veterans at iremember.ru, you can figure out that it wasn't easy to be a Jew in SU. Of course, it was much more better than to be a Jew in Germany, but they still faced some.. um.. how do you say бытовой? racism.
@ Those, who are going to start saying "See, 3rd Reich=USSR", i can tell you that it's not easy to be a Jew even now, in the geografical centre of Europe (Lit). I know some (a lot) of lithuanians, who think that their ancestors did a good job with their iniciative by killing 96% ("world record", not even Poland or Germany had this...) of all Jew in Lithuania - and they started doing it at 23 of June.
So there are sick bastards everywhere, as you can see...
Also, if you read some stories of veterans at iremember.ru, you can figure out that it wasn't easy to be a Jew in SU. Of course, it was much more better than to be a Jew in Germany, but they still faced some.. um.. how do you say бытовой? racism.
@ Those, who are going to start saying "See, 3rd Reich=USSR", i can tell you that it's not easy to be a Jew even now, in the geografical centre of Europe (Lit). I know some (a lot) of lithuanians, who think that their ancestors did a good job with their iniciative by killing 96% ("world record", not even Poland or Germany had this...) of all Jew in Lithuania - and they started doing it at 23 of June.
So there are sick bastards everywhere, as you can see...
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I wouldn't say that he was anti-jewish. Anti-zionist, but definitely not anti-jewish. Lazar Kaganovich was a jew but he worked in soviet goverment. Yiddish was one of the official languages in Byelorussian SSR until the end of WWII, IIRC.
Don't lose your yiddish cup.
Yeah, I know "Doctor's plot". But only 3 out of 9 doctors were jews.
This kinda reminds me how some people are labeled as anti-semites when they criticise Israel.
Don't lose your yiddish cup.
Yeah, I know "Doctor's plot". But only 3 out of 9 doctors were jews.
This kinda reminds me how some people are labeled as anti-semites when they criticise Israel.
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I'm sorry I diverted this thread with my comments - perhaps we can get it back on topic before the thread gets closed.
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Right-ho. You were right about Yagoda. It was good that Stalin gave order to Aleksandr Poskrebyshev to investigate Yagoda's and Yezhov's schemes in NKVD. In Yagoda's trial, he described how he ordered arrests of loyal communists on false charges to protect his own agenda.
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Yezhov - God, there was another example of scum rising to the top. *shudder*
From Bukharin, about Yezhov "In the whole of my long life, I have never met a more repellent personality than Yezhov's. When I look at him I am reminded irresistibly of the wicked urchins of the courts in Rasterayeva Street, whose favorite occupation was to tie a piece of paper dipped in parafin to a cat's tail, set fire to it, and then watch with delight how the terrified animal would tear down the street, trying desperately but in vain to escape the approaching flames. I do not doubt that in his childhood Yezhov amused himself in just such a manner and that he is now continuing to do so in different forms."
His bouts of 'French Wrestling' in the Lubyanka cells seem to have been a source of great delight to him.
Stalin's ordering of people (like Menzhinsky, Yagoda, Yezhov, Beria in the top NKVD post) to investigate their predecessors (or at least setting them up in opposition to them) was typical - He seemed to be basically saying, "You can have his job so long as you can discredit him for his excesses without implicating me in any way."
From Bukharin, about Yezhov "In the whole of my long life, I have never met a more repellent personality than Yezhov's. When I look at him I am reminded irresistibly of the wicked urchins of the courts in Rasterayeva Street, whose favorite occupation was to tie a piece of paper dipped in parafin to a cat's tail, set fire to it, and then watch with delight how the terrified animal would tear down the street, trying desperately but in vain to escape the approaching flames. I do not doubt that in his childhood Yezhov amused himself in just such a manner and that he is now continuing to do so in different forms."
His bouts of 'French Wrestling' in the Lubyanka cells seem to have been a source of great delight to him.
Stalin's ordering of people (like Menzhinsky, Yagoda, Yezhov, Beria in the top NKVD post) to investigate their predecessors (or at least setting them up in opposition to them) was typical - He seemed to be basically saying, "You can have his job so long as you can discredit him for his excesses without implicating me in any way."
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I have to admit that Nestor has a pretty fair summing up there. And Sebag-Montefiore's "Red Tsar" is defo the best read on the subject currently in circulation.
With the Soviet press rigidly controlled by the State, individuals could only go on what they heard - and would have to be very careful of rumour-mongering and gossip, as this could VERY easily be seen as "counter-revolutionary"...
The whole series of security chiefs (Yezhov, Yagoda, Beriia) were all psycopathic loons, which pretty much served Stalin's purpose. Their excesses also made them wonderfully vulnerable to him as well - note the exits of Yezhov and Yagoda. Reading about Lavrenti Beriia is quite disgusting in places - positively nauseating. The passage regarding Mikhail Tukhachevsky's "confession" is quite horrendous - the actual signed document was found recently, splattered with the poor bastard's blood. And he was without a shadow of a doubt the equal or better of ANY of the German general staff. His writings on how to both enhance and counter partisan and terrorist movements was quite brilliant, to the point (IMHO) of being required reading for everyone today, 70 years after he wrote it.
With the Soviet press rigidly controlled by the State, individuals could only go on what they heard - and would have to be very careful of rumour-mongering and gossip, as this could VERY easily be seen as "counter-revolutionary"...
The whole series of security chiefs (Yezhov, Yagoda, Beriia) were all psycopathic loons, which pretty much served Stalin's purpose. Their excesses also made them wonderfully vulnerable to him as well - note the exits of Yezhov and Yagoda. Reading about Lavrenti Beriia is quite disgusting in places - positively nauseating. The passage regarding Mikhail Tukhachevsky's "confession" is quite horrendous - the actual signed document was found recently, splattered with the poor bastard's blood. And he was without a shadow of a doubt the equal or better of ANY of the German general staff. His writings on how to both enhance and counter partisan and terrorist movements was quite brilliant, to the point (IMHO) of being required reading for everyone today, 70 years after he wrote it.
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I read Archipel Gulag an imo very impressive note on the Russian "KZs".
Interesting in that context are the parts where it is described how the people haven been arrested.
And I guess there were rumors, especially then the NKVD simply put random people into chail to reach their figures.
Also the show trials someone has mentioned before and the general fight against "counter-revolutionists" was nothing secret and started with Lenin.
Imo there is simply the same problem as there was in Germany. Many people knew something a lot had assumptions but most did not know the large scale things happened.
Also knowing something does not change anything, especially in a very cruel dictatorship.
Interesting in that context are the parts where it is described how the people haven been arrested.
And I guess there were rumors, especially then the NKVD simply put random people into chail to reach their figures.
Also the show trials someone has mentioned before and the general fight against "counter-revolutionists" was nothing secret and started with Lenin.
Imo there is simply the same problem as there was in Germany. Many people knew something a lot had assumptions but most did not know the large scale things happened.
Also knowing something does not change anything, especially in a very cruel dictatorship.
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Haha, Gulag Archipelago... Solzhenitsyn claimed that 120 MILLION people were killed by soviet system. That is statistical impossibility. That guy didn't base any of his "studies" on concrete archives. However, west suddenly shut up when it comes to his nazi symphaties and speaking out in favor of Franco. 
What can you expect from a man who's surname means "man of lies".
BTW, Tukhachevsky was in fact planning a coup with some officers in high positions. These men included Gamarnik, the head of the army political commissariat, General Yakir, the Commander of Leningrad, General Uborevich, the commander of the Moscow military academy, and General Primakov, a cavalry commander.
What can you expect from a man who's surname means "man of lies".BTW, Tukhachevsky was in fact planning a coup with some officers in high positions. These men included Gamarnik, the head of the army political commissariat, General Yakir, the Commander of Leningrad, General Uborevich, the commander of the Moscow military academy, and General Primakov, a cavalry commander.
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