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Beta Map RO-Narva17March_B2 & RO-MuddyTigers

I played Muddy Tigers recently and it was very enjoyable. Even though the map is tank heavy, I had a lot of fun as an infantry soldier. Defending the objective A from inside that little Faust dugout was very cool... many tank kills to be had there.

The only request I could make after playing it is, shorten up the walking distance for the German footsoldiers at the last spawn area. It's quite far, and consumes alot of time trying to get back to the Farm area.

Other than that, terrific job! The landscape is nice and flat, but with just enough dips for a guy to take cover in. Thanks
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The Narva version is awesome, with the few tanks it works perfectly, we held the first objective for a good 10 minutes before a T34 got a shell right in the trench, then overwhelmed we managed to hold the 2nd house for the rest of the map, and in the final 2 minutes even pushed the Russians back recapturing line one.

Really good, much more like being in a real battle then most gamey maps, was on with 20 people would lvoe to see how it goes with 32. MG'ing and long range rifling and hiding from tanks and useful firing positions (2nd house is great with those openings) thumbs up.
 
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I played Muddy Tigers recently and it was very enjoyable. Even though the map is tank heavy, I had a lot of fun as an infantry soldier. Defending the objective A from inside that little Faust dugout was very cool... many tank kills to be had there.

The only request I could make after playing it is, shorten up the walking distance for the German footsoldiers at the last spawn area. It's quite far, and consumes alot of time trying to get back to the Farm area.

Other than that, terrific job! The landscape is nice and flat, but with just enough dips for a guy to take cover in. Thanks
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Yep.... I agree completely!! There are enough Tanks to keep everyone happy and in combat... then the foot soldiers can have a grand old time nailing Tankers.

Yes, there should be a few more HT's strategically located for the Germans. It is quite a trek back to the action when no HT's are available.

Great Map!! - Fun Map!!
 
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Well I've played the Muddy Tigers map a few times and found the German side great. The German tanks sure knock those Russian tanks out at long range with a single shot.

But when I went to play the Russians I found that their tanks are very weak and as an example I was in an IS2 firing at this Panzer 4 and Tiger from front and side angles and all the shots bounced off and this was at less than 400m. Now I aint no expert at how balistics should go but my IS2 should have destroyed those tanks at the range and at certain angles I was hitting from. So has the map also changed the Russian tank values?
 
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The IS2 still takes out Tigers with one shot from the side on this map. And of course the tanks are not balanced, but people want the same amount of tanks either side, so Viv is kind of buggered either way.
Oh it does, in fact I took out a Tiger at long range by hitting it on the front hull. Though far too many shots are bouncing when they shouldn't.
 
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We have the Muddy Tigers in our rotation.... and perhaps we play this map more than most folks do... The single IS-2 usually knocks the socks off the Tigers left and right. It all a matter of the skill of the player in the IS-2.

The map and its battles are well balanced and bunches of fun. In fact, the map is just dandy as it is. Thanks again ViViD.
 
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Guys I just played a clan battle on Narva as the germans, if your clan hasn't played on this map do it, we had 10 on ther german side and 12 on the russians.

This may sound arrogant but its not suppose to be but it was the best of all the clan battles we played so far and gave me that real world feeeling I been searching for.

To watch guys running huddled over from one small ditch to the next with guys sitting next to mgers so they can feed them new clips was awesome to watch I wish I was running fraps.

Unfortunately the T-34s on the other side didn't try to much to take us on in the Tiger, but one sneaking T-34 managed to get behind us and lay a single shot into our rear and blow us up.

The infantry battle was amazing to watch at range with carriers full loadedeither making it or blowing up with a panzerfaust, T-34s trying to overrun positions, infantry diving in ditches, without a panzerfaust screaming to his mate to help him out.

As a clan map, Narva i feel is unique
 
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For me, Narva is very enjoyable, but when on even just a slightly weaker Russian side on Muddy Tigers there is no hope. The German tanks simply surround the spawn area on it seems 3 sides and you cannot even get tanks across the railway line!


Hmmmm.... Haven't seen that yet. In fact we enjoy the exact opposite. Most of our battles are concentrated around and behind Objective 2. The it becomes paramount to stop the Farm from being capped.

Regardless of where the Germans are.... unless its 10 Germans to 3 Russians, uneven sides, if the Russians exit their spawn at extreme opposing points of exit and pursue the Cap Zones... the Germans will be forced to move if they are to either defend and/or win. Not to mention the Russians now being able to flank the Germans. Additionally, where was the support infantry?? Were there only three playing? 2 Germans and One Russian? :)
 
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Aktionman I did experience that last night but we did solve it. We got a great group of gents on our Australian servers so I am not sure if this could apply in the US as it does mean most will die. Well I said who wants to die to get us out of this mess and well I got a 2 solo tankers and 3 inf, so basicly we had a convoy of 2 tanks 2 UC. Well we just stormed out of the spawn, one T34 taking a hit straight away. We passed Ruins A and then the last T-34 took fraust fire and got knocked out. My and the other UC followed the ditch beside the road but sadly the UC behind me got knocked out by FF (?). Well me and another soldier made it to B, capped it and forced some tankers to move in and take us out, leting our T-34's out in the mean time. I am sure we were lucky in this situation, but there is usualy a way in any sticky situation.
 
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This is where restricted map thinking come into play because all maps spoon feed you in where to go.

Tactics 101.

The road at spawn funnels people over it because people are so used to following roads in maps because there is always restrains.

Get a group of tankers to swing left along the railway line or right as far as they can go, then head over the railway line at top speed this gives you most times a good angle on tanks.

With a IS2 parked and angled on the railway line this can draw fire and distract the other tanks.

With a burst of speed you can whip around the flanks of the enemy and hit him side on.

Also use the same approaching if you heading right, use the T-34 speed and manuverablity to get in close, pair up with a guy and a team work combo can get in close to a tank circle it and knock it out.

Trying to take on german tanks at range is folly, a russian team in full movement forward is a scary sight as the speed of the t-34s really make the job difficult for the germans.

But you always are going to suffer dependant on which side attracts the best tankers, and unfortunately the germans tend to attract the quality tankers, so if you think your good go russian for a challenge rather turning it into a turkey shoot.

The reason one the clan I am involved in is the best in Australia is cause we always pick the harder sides.
 
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This is where restricted map thinking come into play because all maps spoon feed you in where to go.

Tactics 101.

The road at spawn funnels people over it because people are so used to following roads in maps because there is always restrains.

Get a group of tankers to swing left along the railway line or right as far as they can go, then head over the railway line at top speed this gives you most times a good angle on tanks.

With a IS2 parked and angled on the railway line this can draw fire and distract the other tanks.

With a burst of speed you can whip around the flanks of the enemy and hit him side on.

Also use the same approaching if you heading right, use the T-34 speed and manuverablity to get in close, pair up with a guy and a team work combo can get in close to a tank circle it and knock it out.

Trying to take on german tanks at range is folly, a russian team in full movement forward is a scary sight as the speed of the t-34s really make the job difficult for the germans.

But you always are going to suffer dependant on which side attracts the best tankers, and unfortunately the germans tend to attract the quality tankers, so if you think your good go russian for a challenge rather turning it into a turkey shoot.

The reason one the clan I am involved in is the best in Australia is cause we always pick the harder sides.
Well most peple would tend to follow the roads because it's almost inpossible to avoid getting out of a minefield when you drive outside of the battle zone so I try not to use the flank tactic too much unless I know the map by heart.

When I play the Germans I always kick arse but when I try the Ruskies I can't seem to survive beyound first cap zone in tanks but I do more better when playing on foot but it becomes a killing field just beyond the second cap as there's hardly any cover when you try to cap the farm house.

But overall I love how the map is setup for long range tank dueling.
 
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Sorry to be the lone voice of dissent here, but I find Muddy Tigers to be no fun at all.

As the Germans, it's a turkey shoot. The Germans have the advantage of longbarreled 75s and 88s, they have the advantage of being on defense and therefore being stationary, and all of their positions to defend from are within cover. The fortified positions have tons of quick-respawning panzerfausts, so if infantry gets dug in, they're in perfect shape and are VERY hard to dislodge even with a truly determined attack.

The Russians have fast but weak tanks, and in order to actually fight back, they have to stop moving. This is totally counter-intuitive to the ONE Russian advantage: Speed. With the ground being full of divots and craters, though, the Russians can't maintain forward speed and even if they can, they have tons and tons of open ground to cover while approaching the German firing squad.

Their anti-armor capabilities from an infantry perspective are naught. PTRDs? Don't make me laugh. Those things are totally useless. Combat engineers actually have to be able to GET to a tank before they can use a satchel on it.

The Russians also lack artillery, which would be key towards dislodging Germand defenders.

Personally, in its current iteration, there is NO way I'd run this map on our server. It's just too heavily tilted towards the Germans. If you only ever play axis, sure, the map's a blast. It's a cakewalk to defend in. I've played several times as both Axis and Russians, and I have yet to see the Russians win. Usually they don't even make it towards capturing and holding Fortified B, and sometimes they don't even get that far.

Maybe this map would be better for clan play, but for average pub playing it's asking WAY too much of the Russian team. Can it be won by the Russians? I'm sure it can, but it'd take light years more coordination on the Russian side and you just don't see that on pub servers. Period. Not to the level that this map requires, anyway. Even then the map would still be heavily slanted towards the Germans.


If you want the map to play better, I'd suggest the following:

- Add more cover for the Russians on their approach. Part of why they all follow the road is because everywhere else you just make yourself a huge target.

- Remove the panzerfausts from Fortified A and B. The Germans can start with panzerfaust troops already. They don't need the extra firepower.

- Give the Russians multiple artillery strikes, say, after they take Fortified A (put a russian-only radio there).

- Make ALL the positions unrecapturable. Once the Russians take a position, slap a minefield down and make it unrecapturable. Doing otherwise further unbalances the map AND invites spawncamping which is NEVER fun.

- Remove the "We're under enemy guns!" warning and minefield zone to the left of the Russian spawn. If you want people to flank, give them the space to do it under SOME cover rather than demanding that they cruise out in the open to be cut down by stationary defenders with longbarreled 75s.

- Make the clock something like 30-40 min. Like Berezina and Black Day in July. Give the Russians substantially more reinforcements than the Germans so that one option is to simply outlast the Germans. This would be an ideal choice if you don't want to change any of the other things I've mentioned.


Right now, the major flaws in the map are:

- Germans can recapture all positions meaning that the Allies have to play a bit of defense as well as offense.

- Germans have a plethora of panzerfausts (do you know what a plethora is, Jefe?) and can dig into the fortified positions WAY too easily.

- Germans have positioning advantage of both cover AND being on defense, meaning they get to be stationary and play "shooting gallery" while the Russians try to maneuver and fire at the same time, or have to stop to return fire and slow their advance.

- Reinforcements and time also favor the Germans. Too easy for them to run out the clock with no worries of running out their reinforcements.


The ONLY thing I've seen that can POSSIBLY be called a negative for the Germans is that, from what I can tell, have only one exit from their spawn. Potentially, a Russian IS2 could position itself (if it got lucky) to where it could fire on the Germans as they leave their base and lock them down. However, the IS2 has to GET into that position first, which is no mean task.


The map has a lot of potential, but right now it's just way way WAY favoring the German side. You want a level of coordination that is more often than not completely unheard of in public servers. If you want to advertise this as a clan map, great. I think it'd make a killer clan map where people are used to coordinating. But for public play, this map just don't cut the mustard in its current form.

Take a tip from Berezina. That's a map that requires a lot of German coordination too, but you actually see the Germans win it. Why? Because the map found a good balance between the positioning/equipment advantage for the Russians, and reinforcements/time for the Germans. So, even if the Germans can't capture positions quickly, the clock is working in their favor because they have a good advantage in reinforcements on the Russians. Meanwhile, the Russians have to decide how hard they want to defend various objectives, or whether they want to cede ground and fall back to better positions to maximize what reinforcements they have left.

If Muddy Tigers added that kind of calculus into the mix, I think a lot of the other balance issues would disappear. Sure the Germans have positioning, equipment, etc. advantages, but they have to kill at, say, a 5 to 1 ratio during a 30-40 min period to win. The Russians can simply stay alive and whittle the enemy down, thereby using time and reinforcements to offset the fact that they have no cover, weaker tanks, bad positioning, and there are recapturable objectives.

If you made the Germans have, say, only 2/3 the reinforcements of the Russians (or some other number, whatever worked out as balanced), they'd have to really think twice about trying to recapture Fortified A and B once they're taken. Sure they could do it, but would they want to risk the same meatgrinder the Russians just braved when they're down to 30% reinforcements, the Russians have 50%, and there's still 17 min on the clock?
 
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Sorry to be the lone voice of dissent here, but I find Muddy Tigers to be no fun at all.

Odd, I see every server running Muddy Tigers full or almost full.... and yes, I'd hazard a guess that you are the lone voice of dissent. I was on a Russian Team today.... and we won 5 out of 7 rounds we played. The outcomes and tactics are totally dependent upon the skills of the players. Nothing is decided by built-in bias. Remove this and that and make it easier for the Russians... pffft. The map is well balanced. You don't like it?? Please play the other NarvaMarch17 version. We are enjoying this one to no end.

ViViD please, The map should be left as is. It plays well, is well laid out and as an Admin, I can attest to the fact it is a very popular map.

Solo4114, Why do you want to ruin a good thing? Don't go fixing what ain't broken. Just because you have problems, doesn't mean everyone does.
 
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