Submachine Gun Suggestions

[mat69]

That's not the point. People want realistic weapons and not artificial balance.

That is NO artificial balance!
That is more realistic than you could get without a lot of work.

Bullets lose a lot of speed and so a lot of energy over the distance, so wind etc. can influence them a lot, so you can have no clue with a SMG what you'll hit at 300m even though the bullet travels that far and even farer.
And instead of modelling wind, different temperatures, the bullet starting tumbling .......... (a whole physics book) cone fire would do the job.
And if you actually read my post you'd know that I said cone fire should only come really into play at a distance (and greater) you hardly hit something with every let's say 4th shot in reality so that you "own" at close distance while you won't at a medium or large range, so after its effective range.
If that outcome is not realistic then well ...


PS.: I get the feeling that people simply say no whenver they hear cone fire, because of CS or whatever.
Even though it depends on the way you implement it if it is realistic or not.
I guess you'll agree with me that a weapon, even if you'd perfectly aim, will not hit the same spot allways.
At short distances there won't be a big or even noticable difference (small to no cone fire), the larger the distance is the larger difference is even if you aimed at the exact same spot and that is where cone fire should play a bigger rule, because the weapon is simply not effective at that range (effective --> hardly to hit something and or bullet has lost a lot of energy so hardly to kill someone).

 

[LemoN]

the real problem is the accuaricy of the SMG's when prone
ive seen many MG34 and MG42's loose a direct shootout against a PPSH at around 50 meters

 

[mat69]

Grobut did a mutator some time ago that adjusts the SMG's recoil imo it is still too hard to hit something while standing, while hiting something up to 150m (tested it on the range map) is not realy a problem while being prone and having the weapon supported.

 

[LukeFF]

So you missed my point completley and in fact argued my point for me thanks.

I think the whole thing he's getting at is your choice of words, which you have chosen to continue and expand upon in your post here (i.e., "nazi soldiers").

Yes, due to many factors many Red Army soldiers weren't as well-trained as their German counterparts, but to call them "retarded" is simply inaccurate and an exaggeration. Ignorant they may have been but retarded, no.

 

[thedonster]

the ppsh was made for retarded russian soldiers. Sorry to say it but that is true They made over 6 million ppsh durring ww2 and handed them to people who never fired them and marched them off to combat.
.

So why did the Germans use them at every oppurtunity then? Were they retarded too?

 

[thedonster]

Because compared to a crack nazi soldier a russian soldier that has never even touched a gun let alone fire it is retarded in comparison.
.

Wow, this kind of statement really says a lot about you as a person. I'm glad I don't know you.

 

[A-tree]

Relace the word retards in that post with ill-trained citizen soldiers, it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Quietus]

Relace the word retards in that post with ill-trained citizen soldiers, it makes a lot more sense.

Exactly. Use of the word "retard" to describe them is the only problem with his argument. As was said "ignorant or untrained" would be the appropriate terms to further his point.

 

[Kipper]

That is NO artificial balance!
That is more realistic than you could get without a lot of work.

Bullets lose a lot of speed and so a lot of energy over the distance, so wind etc. can influence them a lot, so you can have no clue with a SMG what you'll hit at 300m even though the bullet travels that far and even farer.
And instead of modelling wind, different temperatures, the bullet starting tumbling .......... (a whole physics book) cone fire would do the job.
And if you actually read my post you'd know that I said cone fire should only come really into play at a distance (and greater) you hardly hit something with every let's say 4th shot in reality so that you "own" at close distance while you won't at a medium or large range, so after its effective range.
If that outcome is not realistic then well ...


PS.: I get the feeling that people simply say no whenver they hear cone fire, because of CS or whatever.
Even though it depends on the way you implement it if it is realistic or not.
I guess you'll agree with me that a weapon, even if you'd perfectly aim, will not hit the same spot allways.
At short distances there won't be a big or even noticable difference (small to no cone fire), the larger the distance is the larger difference is even if you aimed at the exact same spot and that is where cone fire should play a bigger rule, because the weapon is simply not effective at that range (effective --> hardly to hit something and or bullet has lost a lot of energy so hardly to kill someone).

With the ballistics being fully realized in RO:O as they are now, cone fire is not necessary. The ballistics model negates it.

 

[mat69]

With the ballistics being fully realized in RO:O as they are now, cone fire is not necessary. The ballistics model negates it.

Can you read?!
There IS allready some kind of cone fire realised in RO!
If you don't believe look up the weapons and the parent class, you'll see a "SS_Random" and "SS_Line" there.
But well, maybe the code lies as well ....

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

ok guys I will try to explain it so you dont get confused or distratced.

Fact: The ppsh was designed to be used by people that have never even fired a gun. This happened more than people like to admit russian soldiers were often grabbed right off the farm and thrown on a train to the front often without even firing a gun once!

So why is the gun that is designed to be picked up and fired effectivley the every first time even by someone that is fresh off the farm never fired a weapon or held one the hardest gun to use in the game?

The russian designers basically tried making an idiotproof gun. Have you ever heard that phrase "idiot proof" well its used every day especially by engineers and such. Well idiot proof means they were expecting some idiots to use it? That is why its basically a point and shoot design.

And my comparison of a NAZI soldier from say the waffen ss that was fighting for 4 years solid and had much training to a russian fresh off the farm with no training or never even held a gun is right they are retarded in comparisson.

And I also used that phrase because its nice to see all you commies even today in 2006. Sure its ok to support communists who basically held the world hostage for the last 50 years and will be directly responsible for the end of the world someday.

Russia invaded Poland too starting ww2 or are all of you "retards" forgetting that. In My opinion russia is 10x worse than the nazis ever were not that I am supporting them at all but I am 100% against commies! in any shape or form.

Its just so funny to hear all you bleeding heart liberals crying and moaning everytime someone says something bad about russia or communists. They were evil and they are evil my friends.

if you read my original post I am not saying that every russian soldier is untrained but I am saying the gun was designed with the russian farm boy fresh off the farm with NO training whatsoever to pick it up and use it. So when the gun designers made and "idiot proof gun" that is what they did yell at them not me. They made over 6 million ppsh41 alone durring ww2 and a large number of the soldiers were in fact untrained. The gun is a good gun but it is not designed only for the good soldiers is my point it is designed for the "RETARD or IDIOT" soldiers that were sure to get it also. The gun was designed with the weakest link in mind.

I am sorry if I offended any of you bleeding heart liberals ie."commie lovers" by calling them retards. I will just refer to them the same way the russian designers did and the way the russian commanders did when they ordered the gun in the first place I will call them IDIOTS since the gun was designed to be "idiot proof".

 

[mat69]

None of us ever said he supported communism imo it seems that you have some kind of persecution complex.
Join up with McCarthy, your personal hero as it seems. Only problem is that he betrayed the ideals of the US (as many others did as well in fact). Freedom of speech, not for liberals ...

And it is hard to say who was worse when you compare the satan with the devil.

On the main topic I agree with you that the weapon should be easier to use.

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

So why did the Germans use them at every oppurtunity then? Were they retarded too?

if the gun is easy to fire with untrained soldiers So it is much easier to fire with trained soldiers. Like I said the gun was designed with the lowest common denominator in mind while of course a trained soldier can use it too.

So again as I say thanks for making my point for me. Of course the germans used it everyone wanted to use it. Its easy to use "idiot proof" in fact. So why is it so hard to use in the game?

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

None of us ever said he supported communism imo it seems that you have some kind of persecution complex.
Join up with McCarthy, your personal hero as it seems. Only problem is that he betrayed the ideals of the US (as many others did as well in fact). Freedom of speech, not for liberals ...

And it is hard to say who was worse when you compare the satan with the devil.

On the main topic I agree with you that the weapon should be easier to use.

I know it may sound like I am angry etc. But I do get angy when everyone seems to give russia a free pass. The fact is that They invaded polland and basically started ww2 also. Everyone just loves russia it seems and gives them a free pass well I just cant forget everyhing that they did from 1930's on till the current date. millions upon millions of people were slaughtered wholesale in their name. I am not anykind of NAZI fan but enough people already give them hell. No one seems to mention that russia killed 5 or 10 times as many people and the "bad things" that they have done still echo and have consequences to this day.

So when 95% of the people that respond to this are obviously big fans of communists and find it their duty to defend them I cannot. Also someone mentioned mcarthy well why dont you look up something called the venona project and see how many comunists were working in our government.

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

What a ****ing retarded thing to say!! You boil down brilliant Russian engineering to that???

You think someone said to these engineers 'Our men are ****ing retards, lets design something that would make them effective cos they are ****ing imbeciles!' (???) LoL oh dear

So lets make the ppsh so ****ing easy to use, that any newb can pwn with it, cos history has proven it! Thanks to retarded russians...

Yes I am absolutley saying that russian generals said to the designers we need a gun we can put in the hands of a soldier with no experience so we can march them wave after wave to their deaths and hope they kill a few soldiers before they die. This was the main tactic in Stalingrad, use our own troops as fodder until the germans run out of ammo.

I am absolutley saying that the russian generals purposley had the gun be designed as "idiot proof" because they didnt want to waste trainning on soldiers that they marched in waves to their deaths. The russian generals knew this would be done all the time so they needed a gun that would at least be effective in the hands of these people so at least they might kill a few germans.

Do you think russian generals wanted to march the trained troops into walls of german MG fire when they could prop up a farm boy and shove a ppsh41 in his hand and march groups of untrained soldeirs instead?

So yes I am saying that in fact the reason the ppsh was designed is the generals needed a gun that can at least be effective with untrained soldiers.

And yes I am saying the Russian Generals said to the designers "Make me an idiot proof gun!" with them in mind.

 

[D3terioNation]

You sir, are an idiot & a buffoon! How old are you, 16?

But to be honest I don't think you really believe what you type. I think you're trying to come across as some kind of weird, internet right-wing, anti-Russian (with your laughable statements) expert on history, spurting out stuff your dad probably told you!

Please quit while you're only a few miles behind!

 

[mat69]

It was me who mentioned McCarthy, but well I know Venona.
Point is how many spies did he uncover so that you could at least try to justify a cut in personal rights (including undermining the 5th Amendment).
"twenty one years of treason.", yeah great guy that McCarthy. Ignore the bleeding needed to gain freedom, who needs freedom if we can have a snitcher-system. And sooner than later you would work exactly as your enemy does.
But well I guess discussing with you on that matter is pointless. Are you one of those who believe that you can win the "war against terror" with weapons?

And generally crimes in Russia against people started before even 1930.

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

listen the russian generals did want the gun to be as simple as possible for the purposes I stated. What do you think the generals said all our troops are so great and experienced and even the ones that never fired a gun are pros in hours so lets make them a gun that is easy to use? That dosent make sense.

The fact is durring much of the beginning of the war large groups of compleley inexperienced soldiers were being used and lets not forget all the generals were basically slaughtered and the russian army wasnt in the perfect position before of ww2.

So logically the main intent of the ppsh was to be handed out in masse to large groups of inexperienced soldiers. The gun is easy to use but also effective just because its easy to use didnt mean it was effective. of course the generals came to the designers and said what I said because they were mad and their necks were on the line litterally. They didnt come to the designers with rosy statements and praise about the russian soldeirs at that time they were getting slaughtered. They very likley said close to what I said they did " we need a gun that these idiots can use and if you dont make it we will kill you and your family"

The #1 advantage of the russians was they had poeple, and durring 40 and 41 they were getting their asses kicked and were already getting people off the farm with no experince. The Germans were already crashing into their major cities and they needed a street sweeper.

And as far as mcCarthy I am really pissed about the time we handed china to them on a platter we had a good chance multiple chances to bring china over and they gave us the chance. The only thing about that is the one telling the president what to do was a communist spy.

I feel that along with ww2 etc. the day we handed china over will someday result in the end of the world and McCarthy would be well worth it if we just stopped that one event or that one spy. I personally am not a fan of mcCarthy and agreed with you almost my whole life until you think about the world will likley end or what the next inevitable giant war will be. Really just thinking about nuclear weapons and the cold war what it has caused changed mankind so profoundly its sickening. I am not saying the americans are scotch free and am including what we may do in the future too but likeyou said the russians started this **** before 1930 and we are only responding. We were a little hick nation before ww1 and ww2 woke us up. Who knows what may have happened if hitler never came to fight russia. America basically ignored tons tons tons of crap and it took pearl harbor to get us into the war. Imagine we could have just sat back until the 50's 60's if ww2 never happened and russia would be posied to really end the world or take it over if america wasnt awakend by ww2.

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

I really am sorry if I offended anyone but I really only did say idiots or retards. And when you think about it whatever russain general probably used much worse in describing the men when he ordered the guns design.

Of course I dont mean to offend any true russian soldier I am a fan of all war history and respect all warriors throughout history. That is why you have to appreciate the view the russains generals all of them litteraly had their necks on the line and the situation that came to a point at stalingrad was bleak and dark, and you have to admit they handed out rifles every 10th man at one point in stalingrad and that was to people right off a train untrained if you excuse the pun. In fact whole armies were trained in on cattle carts and thats all the training they got excuse the pun again. Its a good thing the russians had enough foresight to see that this might happen when they asked for the guns design years earlier. Its part of the reason they won the war and was basically the main phillosophy of all the russian wepaons designed since the war started tanks and planes included. BRUTE FORCE and endless ammounts of humans that they already didnt have the time or resources to train and for all they knew they would be needing until 1950 or more.

And I also have never forgot the russians planned and schemed with the NAZI's and started ww2 when they attacked poland so any critisicm they get name calling included should be looked upon by the whole world as deserved. I really dont think I am to far out of line with what I said.

 

[A-tree]

Don't confuse communism with stalinism.
The politics of communism isn't based upon the killing of people, where as Nazism is.