Tigers

[crazyivan1970]

One thing I'de like to see if the Tiger's gun is fixed is either AT guns or the SU-152. It would be an intresting slugging match having the Tiger face off against the SU-152. The Tiger would have an opponent that it was acually more manuevrable then, but the SU-152 could also slag a Tiger from quite the distance.

SU-152 is actually less manueverable then Tiger... if you want slugging match it really should be SU-100. Basically T-34 with 100mm high vel gun. Tigers and Panthers worst nightmare. Even SU85 would be nice at this point... that antiaircraft gun could do some damage for sure

 

[Maus]

If you just want a pointless, nobody can win slug match.... Pair the Tiger I with the Churchill VII.

The churchills armour is too thick for the tigers gun, and the churchills gun is basically the same as the shermans.

 

[Afterburner]

SU-152 is actually less manueverable then Tiger... if you want slugging match it really should be SU-100. Basically T-34 with 100mm high vel gun. Tigers and Panthers worst nightmare. Even SU85 would be nice at this point... that antiaircraft gun could do some damage for sure

That is what I meant. The Tiger would acually have something it could out manuver, and yet it would also be outgunned. Only thing there is if I'm not mistaken the SU152 would have an even longer reload time then the IS2 since the shell is bigger and it is still in two parts.

 

[Mikser]

The Tiger did not have face-hardened armour, it used RHA. As was already noted, FHA was only manufactured in plates up to 80mm thick. It is my understanding that FHA was dropped for cost purposes from the Panther D glacis production after October 1943 and evidently from the StuG III production as well. They also reverted to RHA on the Panzer IV J.

 

[The_Cook]

At the moment the Armor Penetration system is really out of wack and Tripwire is doing thier best to address the issue. T34, IS-2, Tiger all can be taken out in one shot even if the tanker has turned any of those tanks at 11 or 1. That, and I'm not to sure but I believe HE rounds will damage a tank slightly, I don't know why.

 

[The_Cook]

Whew this thread stinks.

Red Orchestra does a good job of portraying the Tiger as a old tank and the Panther as the true German super tank. Mappers try their best to put T34/76s vs Tigers, but obviously no one knows how to use them effectively because they read too many books about how a German ace took out a battallion of tanks.

You don't read too many books about the Tigers that fell to simple tactics such as shooting the tracks, optics, and disabling the turret. But we can't have that, the Tiger is a superior tank even by todays standards!

lol, Abrahms would rip the tiger a new one and wonder who scratched it's paint. =)

 

[The_Cook]

Because God knows we get loads of teamwork in this game outside of clan matches. Most people seem to lone it in tanks in this game. With good reason too. Unless you get someone you acually know, there is a higher chance of your driver just screwing around instead of following your orders. I was kinda hoping for the opposite since the main reason I got the game was for the seperate driver and gunner.


And extreamly long range is almost a non-issue in this game. Half the time when I'm in a tank I end up in fights that are less then 100 meters. A good number of times I've bumped into an enemy tank. And the few times I was stupid enough to enage Tiger at long range when I first started playing, I got slagged immediatly.

Ehehehe, I like to drive alot in tanks, commander's are just the monkeys that fire the gun.

 

[Terror [FIN]]

It is easy to destroy a Tiger if you look this:

And it's better to fight against Tiger with T-34/85, the slow 122mm turret of IS-2 is better when destroying soft targets.

 

[SchutzeSepp]

how comes that oftenly frontal shots damage or disable the engine?? is it to simulate the damage that frontal shots can do to the gear of the drive sprockets in front of the tank? or do the shells make u-turns and come back to penetrate the rear?

oh and if you look at the above picture, you see the tiger gets 5\10 on frontal armor! is this to prepare the terrain for adding even more powerfull cats? tiger2??

 

[Solo4114]

You know what I think the big problem is for most people? And why they seem to get so pissed about how "weak" the Tiger is in this game?

Engagement ranges.

The maps themselves may be 1.1km to 900m, but the actual engagement ranges on most of these maps aren't much more than about 700m usually, at least on the official maps.

When going up against T34/85s, that puts the Tiger in what the devs believe (and I'm in no position to contradict) is killing range (<800m). So, pretty much, the Tiger is not going to live up to people's expectations.

I see folks in this thread talking about how the Tiger could do X, Y, or Z at 2000m and A, B, and C at 1000m. Well, we don't really HAVE maps that have engagement ranges of even 1000m, at least not official maps. I don't even think the game draws vehicles at 2000m.

How do I know? Well, I've played around on Mormegil's tank range map and started guaging distance. Plus, from playing on maps like Arad and Black Day in July from RC33 up through the Pre-Final version, I've pretty much reached the conclusion that you almost never have engagement ranges of the kind that make the Tiger the uber-beast people believe it to be.

The Tiger is a long-range standoff weapon. Yet people in this game will use it as if it's a close combat weapon. Yes, in real life it probably COULD engage in close combat, but why the hell would ANYONE do that willingly? The Tiger's armor is great at longer range, and its gun's penetration power remains strong. Plus, with superior optics, it can engage the enemy ACCURATELY at that range. A gun's effective range and penetration values don't mean squat if you can't hit what you're aiming at, and the Tiger's optics along with German training meant that the crews were better equipped to kill at long range.


None of this means that the Tiger is indestructible, though, and if you engage the enemy at the typical engagement ranges on the official map, especially without angling or thinking about your surroundings and how best to use them, you probably WILL be killed.


But the Tiger CAN still kick some ass. Try playing Orel76v88 or Black Day in July and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you use the Tiger as a long-range standoff weapon to cover the advance of the lighter armored Pz IIIs and Pz IVs, you can decimate the enemy on the Black Day maps -- especially the earlier ones with the longer visibility ranges. Likewise on Orel. Play smart and you'll demolish the enemy. You CAN be flanked, however, and if that happens, you're in trouble, especially if the enemy gets within 500m or less of you.

But honestly, I've used the Tiger the way people seem to want to. I just had to do it on custom maps. But I've definitely sat at +800m, picking off enemy T34/76s and SU-76s with impunity, while their shells just bounced off my front hull. I think I did get tracked once, though, so even then you're not TOTALLY invulnerable.



When RO has maps that have engagement ranges of 1000-800m, you may start to see the kind of results you want from the Tiger. But as with every tank engagement you can come up with, visibility and engagement range DO matter. A lot. On the official maps, the Tiger's at a disadvantage or at least can't capitalize on its main advantages.

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

I'm sure you know that when armour gets thicker, it becomes more brittle. That's because quenching the armour became harder and harder as the thickness increased, resulting in softer armour. But some alloys, such as chromium increased the internal hardening of such thick plates. But chromium, like tungsten, wasn't in greatest supply in Germany... so they had to use it sparingly, and on truely prized AFVs. Resulting in thick, yet hard armour.

And of course the armour could still be for example 260 BHN, but have a 350 BHN face.

All true, problem is, they could not make FH plates that thick.

the 'hardness' of German armour varied throughout the war, as did the componenets of that armour. Once German nickel supplies began running low for example, they had to substitue... creating even more varied armour. To say that all tigers used hom0geneous nickel-steel play, with a BHI of 255-260 from 1942 to 1944, is probably not accurate.

Why not, that's actually pretty good quality.

It's not a source for the tiger, but it's a source about WWII and tank armour in general.

http://yarchive.net/mil/ww2_tank_armor.html

Some quotes:

From t-34 engineering

only the Germans utilized decent-
quality rolled alloy plate for tanks. Both the Russians and the Brits were
short on both first-class mill capability and alloy steel capability,
relative to the widely disparate numbers of AFVs they built.

from Griddling that armour

German armor started the war very hard, then lost hardness
as thickness and production quantities increased. The Germans used
face-hardened armor at first, with file-resisting hardness, then dropped
the face hardening and relied on the core hardness of 250-300 BHN,
similar to US tank armor.

Late-war German armor on the front of a
Jagdpanther was measured at about 200 BHN, as was Hetzer side armor. The
Elefants were measured in the low 200's after capture by the Russians, as
early as 1943. These are the softest examples of German armor I can
recall.

The last 2 quotes suggest that like the US, Germanys armour hardness varied GREATLY both throughout the war and between different AFV's.

The switch from the earlier face-hardened or
hard-all-the-way-through steel came about when the major combatants
introduced penetrating caps on their ammo, which protected against
shatter when hitting hard surfaces. These caps were so effective that
the FH armor resisted less well than softer homogeneous armor.

This quote backs up the instances reported of Western AFV's, which tended to use capped rounds were more effective vs. German tank armour then the Russian tank rounds which were more often then not just solid AP. This is logical as Germanys prime concern throughout the war WAS Russia. So advancements that would give German armour the edge on the eastern front even if it meant being slightly less effective vs. Western guns, which tended to lack the power to punch through the better German tanks anyway.

But this isn't proof, just a tidbit of evidence.

Again, all true, but not related to the Tiger at all.

From FH/Homo; Cast/Rolled

Face Hardened armor is best at defeating uncapped AP when it overmatches
the projectile, that is, the diameter of the round is less than the
thickness of the armor.

Again, Russian AFV's tended to use solid AP shells. So FHA would be more effective on the eastern front.

FH tank armor generally had 80-95% of its depth at
machinable homogeneous levels. It was, in fact, made out of RHA. You can
see why it was more expensive as it took time, materials, and other
effort. After the additional heat treating, the plates tended to curl,
and so were flattened cold in presses.

An interesting quote that I know has some significance.

German 85-200mm specs at the
end of the war called for 220-266 BHN. 55-80 was 250-290, and 35-50mm
was 300-350 BHN. Much armor in that range was face hardened, with a
450-600 BHN face.

Yes, most the thinner plates were face hardend, it was technically impossible to fh the thicker ones though. (From what i learned)

A captured Ferdinand in Russia was measured at 212-223 BHN on its 86,
110, and 200mm plates (Brit intell, 16 Feb '44). Spielberger tells us
that the plates for the Ferdinands were taken from Naval stocks, which
could mean it was made to different specs. German 85-200mm specs at the
end of the war called for 220-266 BHN. 55-80 was 250-290, and 35-50mm
was 300-350 BHN. Much armor in that range was face hardened, with a
450-600 BHN face.​

See above and Ferdinand != Tiger

This suggests that German armour of varying thicknesses went through an additional face hardening treatment that resulted in a BHN of 450 and higher... Which meant the tigers could have very well utilised face hardened armour.​

The important word is "could". I don't know it, i can't find a single source that tells me that the 100 mm plates were face hardened.

half the people here don't know what they're talking about...

let me clear a few things up:

As long as you base your facts on speculation, you should not start a posting like that.

 

[crazyivan1970]

Excellent post Solo4114, right on the money. Distance is the key. Superior optics was one of the strongets points on most of german tanks. On the given maps, except couple that mentioned we dont have that kind a range to take true advantages of the Tiger and put it into action. On BlackJuly and Orel maps, if Tiger plays combo with couple of lighter tanks that protect its flanks, it`s unbeatable. I`v seen people surviving entire round on the tiger destroying many opponents without even breaking a "smoke" .

 

[[TW]Wilsonam]

Yup, good post by Solo4114.

The Tiger was effective at short ranges in its heyday (42-43), but once the heavier Soviet guns appeared by 1944, the Tiger had to stand off. I've made the point a number of times: it gained a fearsome rep because it was a monster when it first appeared and because we in the west didn't up-gun as much as the Soviets. The Germans also tended to stick the best crews in the Tiger battalions. But they were always best used at long range, ideally from good ambush positions.

At long range (1,000 metres and up) the high-quality optics made a big difference. It also negated the problems with the slow turret traverse, as the turret only needed to move a few degrees to pick up the next target.

As for engagement ranges in the game: on maps like Arad we are mostly seeing engagement at the 300-400 metre range. Some smarties are standing off in the IS-2 or Tiger and getting 900+ metres. This is where maps like Orel come in - you finally get some massive engagement ranges. And, yes, I've thoroughly enjoyed hammering multiple T-34s from long range, while they struggle to engage back

 

[Rameusb5]

IMHO, armor "Quality" is difficult to model in a game because it is somewhat subjective.

The developers of WWII Online made the mistake of using a german player's resources to apply a 15% armor quality penalty to all tanks that used cast armor (which magically only included allied tanks... imagine that). Several YEARS later, they came to realize that the penalty is dependant upon the armor thickness, such that extremely thick armor (around 75mm) has no penalty at all, while thinner cast armor's penalty MAXED OUT at the 15% that was originally quoted.

And I think that players think the ranges we play at are WAAAAY higher than they actually are. The absolute FURTHEST range I've ever set my sights to was 600 meters, and than happened only once (On BlackDayJuly). Normally, the engagement ranges are inside 400 meters, and the standard is 200.


Admittedly, I have limited tanking experience in the game (I prefer infantry play). But the few times I've been on Tiger vs T34/76 maps (BDJ and Orel88vs76), the tiger feels right to me. On once occasion, I managed to grab the Tiger on Orel and flanked around to the left. Any T34 I came into contact with I blew away, while their rounds completely bounced me. Eventually I was able to set up in a gulley giving me a nice hull down profile against them as they crossed the river and flanked around the main hill towards the East Field. The Russian players were playing it smart and stuck together, attacking me in waves. On the first couple of waves, I was able to take them out. On the final wave, there were so many of them that I couldn't destroy them all fast enough. While most of them engaged me, I knew one flanked around to my left behind a hill. I tried to pull back (because I knew what was coming), but the bugger was too fast for me, and eventually pulled up on my flank and shot me. If I had been multicrewed, I may have stood a better chance. But that experience felt exactly right. That the Tiger in a defensive position could slug it out and win with multiple T34's, and yet could still be flanked by superior tactics and taken out.


I think the main problem with the Tiger is people's perception of it. They watch the history channel and read books dedicated to the tank and get dilusions of grandeur. Yes, the Tiger was vastly superior to every early-war tank the allies fielded. It was also vulnerable to flanking and by 1944 was pretty much on par with the Allied tanks (the Pershing, the Churchill VII and the IS2).

Admitedly, I know very little about the T34/85's gun. Most web sites indicate that it should be able to penetrate the Tiger's front hull out beyond 500 meters (which translates to pretty much always in RO where the ranges are well inside that). If these sources are not true, I would like to know why. GVA is probably the most detailed website out there on the subject, and their information says that the russian's 85mm should be more than enough to defeat the Tiger.

Personally, I feel that the IS2's main gun is actually too anemic in the game. It's half again bigger than any other gun we have in the game, and yet it still requires multiple shots to take out the Tiger I. What? Then again, I ALSO feel that the IS2 is WAY over-represented in the game. It is found on 4(!) out of 6 official tank maps (Konigsplatz, Arad, Ogledow, Barishaka, not found on Rackowice or Bondorevo). For a vehicle that was only supposed to be seen in the extremely late stages of the war, we see it an AWFUL lot. It's more common than the Tiger OR the Panther.

 

[Vader]

I think the real problem is, if the devs were to improve the Tiger in its true form, it would be unstoppable in early maps. Which the only way to beat it is by flanking and having numbers. Which in alot of tank battles on the Eastern Front, especially early war, the tiger would take out so many t-34s and the Russians would just keep sending more and more despite such heavy loses. Eventually the tiger would get overwhelmed or run out of supplies. Unfortuantely RO doesn't have 200 slot servers, so this will never be implimented :'(

 

[koalorka]

I think the real problem is, if the devs were to improve the Tiger in its true form, it would be unstoppable in early maps. Which the only way to beat it is by flanking and having numbers. Which in alot of tank battles on the Eastern Front, especially early war, the tiger would take out so many t-34s and the Russians would just keep sending more and more despite such heavy loses. Eventually the tiger would get overwhelmed or run out of supplies. Unfortuantely RO doesn't have 200 slot servers, so this will never be implimented :'(

It can be... Just limit the number of times a Tiger can spawn after being destroyed and this will reflect the tanks historical scarcity as well. It will also forces people to use the tank more wisely.

 

[crazyivan1970]

I think the real problem is, if the devs were to improve the Tiger in its true form, it would be unstoppable in early maps. Which the only way to beat it is by flanking and having numbers. Which in alot of tank battles on the Eastern Front, especially early war, the tiger would take out so many t-34s and the Russians would just keep sending more and more despite such heavy loses. Eventually the tiger would get overwhelmed or run out of supplies. Unfortuantely RO doesn't have 200 slot servers, so this will never be implimented :'(

In my honest opinion devs should do it. Tiger should be unstopable mid war period. Then less game balance we have in RO, then more it will progress towards "realism". But getting tanks to their actual specs should go along with more complex damage model. Tiger could be stoped by taking out its mobility. Destroying tracks, knocking out wheels and gears...etc. It will still be in the fight... but it just a static target, so its life is about to be over. Another thing is not in RO yet... is Molotov's cocktail. A very effective infantry weapon. It could stop the Tiger as well AT grennades, used in bundles could take out tracks on any tank.

One thing i personally would like to see changed is Frontail armour on the Tiger... seems to be weak. I can usually blow up Tiger by 2-3 rounds of 76mm when fired directly at it. That i dont agree on. No 76mm weapon or even 85 for that matter could penetrate fontal plates of the Tiger with standard AP round from any distance. Interesting thing is, when i read memoirs of russian tank commander (SU100) he mentions couple of times occurances where 100mm AP round would not actually penetrate front armor of Tiger, but armor shrapnel generated from impact would kill crew members. Happened quiet often with early T-34s too, when german 37 or 50mm couldnt penetrate armor, but shrapnel would kill a driver or crew in the turret...depending where it hits.

 

[Solo4114]

Yup, good post by Solo4114.

The Tiger was effective at short ranges in its heyday (42-43), but once the heavier Soviet guns appeared by 1944, the Tiger had to stand off. I've made the point a number of times: it gained a fearsome rep because it was a monster when it first appeared and because we in the west didn't up-gun as much as the Soviets. The Germans also tended to stick the best crews in the Tiger battalions. But they were always best used at long range, ideally from good ambush positions.

At long range (1,000 metres and up) the high-quality optics made a big difference. It also negated the problems with the slow turret traverse, as the turret only needed to move a few degrees to pick up the next target.

As for engagement ranges in the game: on maps like Arad we are mostly seeing engagement at the 300-400 metre range. Some smarties are standing off in the IS-2 or Tiger and getting 900+ metres. This is where maps like Orel come in - you finally get some massive engagement ranges. And, yes, I've thoroughly enjoyed hammering multiple T-34s from long range, while they struggle to engage back

Yeah, I've noticed that people tend to engage around 300-500 on Arad. At most, they seem to engage at MAYBE 800, but that's if you're sniping from the far German spawn into the field (which actually doesn't help the team much).

The tank penetration system doesn't shine as well on maps like this. It's still good (and a LOT better than before with the ol' 2 hits and done system before the summer patch), but the tank system REALLY shines on maps like Orel and Black Day. And the Tiger? Man, that thing IS a beast on maps like that. Fine tuning the optics makes a huge difference and the armor is basically impenetrable.

But that's what I love about playing the Russians on maps like that -- you ALSO get to take advantage of the strengths of the T-34, namely its speed and low profile. If you simply haul ass in the T34, and travel in packs of not less than 3 and ideally 5, you can defeat the Tiger. What's more, there's only a few of them on most maps. It's almost like you get to play one of the raptors in Jurassic Park. One of the T34s draws fire, while the others flank the Tiger and then hit it from the sides. If you use the terrain variations and wheat fields to make it harder to spot you, you're in good shape. And a T-34 that's multi crewed can even try to screen the tiger by purposely lobbing HE rounds in front of the thing to kick up a bunch of dirt and smoke.

I'm hoping Tripwire will start making much larger scale tank engagements, for early, mid, and late war encounters because on maps like those, you REALLY can appreciate the tank system. Squaring off at 400m with an 85 and a Tiger is basically just hammers and eggshells. Whoever fires fastest and most accurately is gonna win.

 

[[TW]Wilsonam]

1. We're looking at ways to push the engine to increase view ranges (workably!), but this may take some time!
2. If you moving "en masse" to defeat a Tiger, spread out when he starts firing, to make it harder for him to pick up on his next target - use his slow traverse against him.
3. Use the ground - get into gulleys. And change direction when you dip out of sight, or you'll find an 88mm round waiting for you as you crest the next ridge!

 

[kuebel]

[...]That, and I'm not to sure but I believe HE rounds will damage a tank slightly, I don't know why.

Yea, that's what I use on angled tanks - what a shame
You should really be able to get through, especially with the 88