german panzerfaust class too powerful?

[scowie]

imo, the panzerfaust is generally too easy to use. The german anti-tank class gets to fire off two panzerfausts in such quick succession that it feels like a semi-automatic rocket launcher!

I think something needs to be done to make that class more vulnerable. I think the time it takes to equip the panzerfaust should be much greater and so should the "reload" time. I also think carrying panzerfausts should slow down the movement rate of a character, whilst both jogging and sprinting.

 

[Isaak Johnson]

This is exactly MY argument.

First I think your post would have been better off in one of the many other Panzerfaust threads, but you can do that next time.

I really think that the Panzerfausts need to be tweaked quite a bit, many people argue that the panzerfaust needs its damage level increased, but I only think that will be good to add once the other aspects of the panzerfaust have been edited as well.

If you do a search you should find a LOT of info for both sides of the issue, I suggest you take a look.

 

[Rak]

And the conclusion is;

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909

 

[Letum]

There shouldn't really be a german AT class realisticaly. They never had individual people labled as anti tank.

 

[The_Countess]

There shouldn't really be a german AT class realisticaly. They never had individual people labled as anti tank.

they had people with fausts thou in the battlefield, and take away the faust and hes just a SMG-er. i think its fine the way it is.

 

[Heinz]

the class itself is ok, as is how the PF is used in game. the REAL problem is how many of the damn things are laying around. like it's a damn PF Convenience store for chrissakes.

 

[george]

the class itself is ok, as is how the PF is used in game. the REAL problem is how many of the damn things are laying around. like it's a damn PF Convenience store for chrissakes.

Boom. Done.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

This is exactly MY argument.

First I think your post would have been better off in one of the many other Panzerfaust threads, but you can do that next time.

I really think that the Panzerfausts need to be tweaked quite a bit, many people argue that the panzerfaust needs its damage level increased, but I only think that will be good to add once the other aspects of the panzerfaust have been edited as well.

If you do a search you should find a LOT of info for both sides of the issue, I suggest you take a look.

panzyfuast can knock out 170 mm of armor , that means the only peice of armor that should be safe from a 1 hit kill would be the front armor of a js2, or the front armor of a tiger 2 which isnt ingame. everything else should be 1 hit kill

 

[Crim]

Don't know what the hell you're talking about, as the frontal armor of an IS-2 Model 1944 (the one found in game) has a maximum of 120mm on the front glacis.

The fact of the matter is that a single Panzerfaust would knock out any tank currently in-game in a single shot.

There is absolutely no chance that a tank would survive a direct hit by one. Absolutely none. Even SU-76s, the tank said to be the best to be hit by a panzerfaust with by people on these forums, was usually out of action after the hit.

The only reason people say that is because the crew could climb out after the fighting compartment was sprayed with superheated metal and such.

This makes the chance for the crew of an SU-76 (well, the people in the exposed compartment, at least) able to survive a hit. The tank would be out of action afterward, however.

And by the way: Germany produced 1.3 million Panzerfaust 60 weapons in December 1944 alone.

A single panzerfaust can destroy any tank currently in the game. They should be able to be picked up out of a box of panzerfaust respawns in the German spawn on tank/CA maps.

Russians should not have access to German weapons, as Germans don't have access to Russian ones. A map-supplied (that is, not picked up off someone else's corpse) panzerfaust for the Russians is about as realistic as a map-supplied SVT-40 for the Germans.

That is to say, it is very realistic indeed. However, as none of that is currently implemented in the official maps for RO, it doesn't make sense to give the Russians more map-supplied panzerfausts than the Germans get.

German "AT-classes" did, in fact, exist. They just carried Panzerschrecks. The panzerfaust should be available to every soldier, which would be a realistic implementation of the weapon. Limited to one per soldier, or two if you dropped your primary weapon for another panzerfaust.

Weapon switch times need to be seriously increased. It's rather tiring to just get quickdrawed by a sniper pulling out his pistol as you rush him with bayonet. You get shot before the pistol even appears in his hand, in terms of the third-person model. It's the same situation with SMGs and rifles.

Also, I think getting close enough to use your panzerfausts on the enemy tanks counts as being vulnerable. An 80-meter shot is quite rare indeed.

What makes that worse is that you need two 80-meter shots, in most (read: every single one I have ever experienced) cases. A panzerfaust dropping near-directly on top of a tank tends to just make it smoke a little bit.

I also don't see why the German anti-tank class should be slowed down at all by three panzerfausts.

An unloaded PTRD weighs a little more than 17 kilograms. A panzerfaust 60 weighs 6.1 kilograms.

Also keep in mind that the PTRD is horribly overpowered. In real life, the only use it saw was in disabling enemy optics or maybe injuring crew members. 99% of the time, a 15mm hole in a tank's armor isn't going to do a thing to the insides of it. It was not uncommon to see German tanks returning after a battle with a dozen or more tiny holes in them, the result of Soviet anti-tank rifle teams going to work.

 

[LukeFF]

There shouldn't really be a german AT class realisticaly. They never had individual people labled as anti tank.

Meh, I dunno about that. An ideal solution IMO would be to introduce the Panzerschreck as the standard weapon for the German AT soldiers (plus a pistol), and give the ability for all the other classes to carry no more than one Panzerfaust.

 

[george]

Crim, your my hero.

 

[Travellerstein]

Althought RO;s weapons system may be either overpowered or underpowed(your mileage may vary) if theres one piece of equipment that *does* not need anyone messing with it-its the panzerfaust. The Panzerfaust 60(the most common model (late 1944+) could penetrate up to 200MM of armor(claimed-estimated 165mm realistically). The PF was capable of destroying any Allied AFV with a single shot. Nominial range of the PF 30 was ~30Meters (1941-44), the 60 's range was a more practical 60 Meters. Unlike RO's faulty Russian AT rifle(which was capable of disableing earlier lightly armored german tanks only) the PZ at least, is capable of doing its job as advertised. Its estimated that PF's counted for the bulk of nearly 2000 soviet tanks destroyed in the Battle of Berlin alone. Hard to call one of the weapons systems thats more or less acurately modeled overpowerd now isnt it

 

[HotDang]

PF is underpowered and for some reason, even though it's a shaped charge, it actually bounces off tanks on numerous occasions, especially at range. If it was correctly modelled there would be a whole heap of cyring on these forums (and a big happy HotDang).

 

[Eater1]

And what exactly is there to keep a shaped charge from ever bouncing off? If hit at a shallow enough angle, it won't actually explode.

 

[Travellerstein]

True that HotDang, but at least when a PF gets a one shot kill, we know its not because the weps 'overpowered', it because it could. I grind my teeth every time one of those PTRD destroys my Panther\ Tiger, or even a Mk IV with a long range single shot to my frontal armor. Yes...thats incrediably realistic. It might make it 'fun' for russian cannon fodder to be able take out Tigers in a manner they would never be able to achieve IRL, but its real true effect is simply to nullify the effect of techincally superior german AFV's, all in the name of 'balance.

A link I forgot in my OP

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_faustpatrone/index.html

As for a shaped charge bounceing,,,yea I hear that too. Obviously the PF physics are modeled after the tanks AP rounds...thus they bounce..... . Imagine all the happy tankers watching that 4th consecutive HEAT shell bounceing into the dirt of that T-34's turret....mm mmmm. The other thing that makes RO inf vs tank ....not necessarilary inaccurate, but odd for sure, is that combined-arms in RO happen more by accident than design. And weapons like the PF(and that gimpy PTRD) due to there shorter range, are vulnerable to combined arms operations. Since actions like this would tend to limit the oportunities for easy AT kills, balance would tend to preserved somewhat. However, since as we know, there far to many Lone-wolfs that basically get into positions un-aided and just wait to ambush some tanks as they pass by. In short, infantry in RO can kill a tank in the open with considerably less risk and effort than in would in fact be the case. Weapons like the PF are in fact, more more deadly and efficently used in built up urban areas than in open fluid warfare, and of course, most RO maps are open steppe style...... So, even tho PZ style weapons give the single infantryman(rightly) the abililty to single kill a Heavy AFV(something the PTRD could *not*cough), IRL sending single -unsupported men out to wreck whole platoons of heavy armor is a very dangerous thing to attempt and takes more than a little skill and definately a lot of nerve. RO does not unfortunately model that aspect of combat very well im afraid. I can see why this game generates more gameyness topics than any other Ive seen in some time, issue definately raises a lot a players passions.........

 

[Rrralphster]

Just for the record. During the battle of Stalingrad Russian AT rifles accounted for 30% of tank casualties (destroyed, damaged, abandoned).
Not because it was such a super weapon but because earlier German tanks were poorly armoured on the sides and rear.

Even though the Russians were surrounded and some units even cut-off from it's command, intelligence about gathering German forces allowed the Russians to take up positions during the night (before the German attack) and attack the German Panzers from behind.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Meh, I dunno about that. An ideal solution IMO would be to introduce the Panzerschreck as the standard weapon for the German AT soldiers (plus a pistol), and give the ability for all the other classes to carry no more than one Panzerfaust.

I thought of something similar: Remove the Panzerfaust class and give riflemen and smg-class the option to carry ONE Panzerfaust instead of their two grenades. This way players will have to decide and can't just select the do-it-all Panzerfaust-class (btw: we need more options on the inventory screen in general imo). And maybe on some maps give this option only to the riflemen (on those earlier maps where it wasn't available in bigger numbers).

Might unbalance the game though. And some might consider it "gamey".

 

[LukeFF]

I thought of something similar: Remove the Panzerfaust class and give riflemen and smg-class the option to carry ONE Panzerfaust instead of their two grenades. This way players will have to decide and can't just select the do-it-all Panzerfaust-class (btw: we need more options on the inventory screen in general imo). And maybe on some maps give this option only to the riflemen (on those earlier maps where it wasn't available in bigger numbers).

Eh, I dunno about that. German stick grenades were typically carried inside the belt, so carrying a Panzerfaust still wouldn't be a problem. IMO the best solution along the lines of what you suggest is to limit what the specialty classes can carry, something like this:

-riflemen, assault troopers, squad leaders, snipers: standard loadout, ability to pick up one panzerfaust
-machine gunners: standard loadout, can only pick up panzerfaust if MG is dropped (as they're already carrying a bloody heavy load!)
-engineers: standard loadout, can only pick up panzerfaust if both satchels are dropped/expended (again, the weight thing)
-anti-tank: panzerschreck or anti-tank rifle, pistol, grenades. Can only pick up panzerfaust if primary is dropped.
-tank commander, tank crewman: standard loadout, ability to pick up one panzerfaust. Cannot take panzerfausts/panzerschrek/ATR inside tanks, due to their size and bulkiness.

Personally, I think this would do wonders for realistic class loadouts, without causing too much complaining (of course, some people will always complain about something ). All that's really needed is the German ATR and Panzerschrek, and we're good to go.

 

[LemoN]

dont forget that when a tank is hit by a panzerfaust ( and penetrated) that most crews dont get killed or wounded by shrapnell of molten metal but because of the sudden change of pressure inside the tank

 

[MadMax]

Anti tanks soldiers should be allowed to carry two of the panzerfausts.

Other classes should only be only allowed to carry one of them. Soldiers which carry a MG should be forced to throw their MG away befor they could pick up a faust.

And implement a prolonged time for switching weapons - Panzerfaust - nade - pistol - rifle....
-> no more ultra arcady fast switching like now and no more instant weapon switching when weapon shot out of the hands pls !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!