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Spawning on the frontline.

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Diamond

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 17, 2006
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Netherlands
#1
There are multiple maps which have this 'problem'. I'll try to explain it using Rakowice.


When the map Rakowice starts, the Germans have to get to the perimeter defenses as quickly as they can. But no matter how quick they are, there will always be some quick russians that have managed to reach the cap zone before you, or at the same time as you arrive there.

It is nearly impossible to get a bit of a foothold on those outer defenses. 90% of the time they will be overrun in 30 seconds if not immediatly.
I think the defenders spawn should be closer to the initial objective then the attackers spawn. So they can set up a bit of a defense.

Also, I'm only talking about spawning closer to the initial defenses, not about the rest of the objectives.

A map that does an excellent job at this is Lyes Krovy, the Germans have some time to set up their MGs and get ready for the Russians. This mostly results in a slaughter for the Russians, but as soon as they get past that initial bump, things even out.


This really isn't a rant, I like very map's design, but this is just something that should be changed in my opinion. :eek:
 
#2
I concur but i'll add i think the defenders should only spawn on the frontline initially and there after they spawn way back depending on the map. Unfortuanalty its a bit late for TW to do this for its maps but maybe some custom mappers could try it.
Also i thought Lyes krovy did a terrible job of this in that map you spawn way back too, and if the russains run straight away they're usually there in the same time as the germans.:confused:
 
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#5
What you're looking for is a temporary spawn or 'one-time spawn'. The defenders spawn close/at the first objective for a set period of time at the start of the round. After this period of time passes (usually 30 - 60 seconds) the defenders get moved back. This is entirely possible to do if the mapper wants to include it. All the official maps could have this feature added into the next patch if they wanted, and IMO a lot of them would benefit from this. How many times have you been defending on Basovka and thought "Hey, should we be in the front trenches waiting for the German attack?". ;)
 
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#6
There's some balance considerations here, though. A defending position is often MUCH stronger than an attacking one. You might have to play with reinforcement numbers to get this balanced properly.

Plus, I think the initial capture zones are supposed to fall relatively quickly. Ain't much point in having a larger map otherwise. The goal with the first capture zones is not to stop the attack dead in its tracks, but rather to delay it as long as possible.

With Basovka, the Russians don't need any help there. The Germans start pretty far back on that map, and the long run up to the trenches means they're already winded when they arrive. Couple that with better defensive positioning, a ridge that the Germans have to run over (which leaves them TOTALLY exposed) and Russian artillery and you've got a map that often ends up with the Russians holding the Germans off from even the first cap point for 75% of the map.
 
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#8
Another issue that is semi germain to this post is the moving of the attacker spawn as objectives are capped. This happens alot on Snowy Forest and the one where you have to take the different floors of the building. Basically maps with linear objectives that the attackers spawn moves with the objectives.

The problem is if you are in or near the objective when it is capped you are killed because you are now in a spawn area. Last night on Snowy Forest the Rusians capped the Central Forest Zone and 6 Axis immediatly blew up (yours truely included) If you mappers could keep this in mind when you are building your maps it would be most appreciated.
 
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#9
That wasn't a spawn, that was just the cold finally getting to your soldier. Russians are immune to it, though. Sorry.


Kidding aside, I think Rackowice is meant to be a suprise assault, which is why the germans have to be quick on the draw (as opposed to Basovka, which feels more like a 'meeting engagement' if there was such a thing in WWII)
 
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#11
While i agree that the Initial German spawn should be at the Frontline, I have to say that Rackowice is horribly unbalanced in favor of the Germans already. I've seen the Russians win that map exactly once.

But in principal, I do dislike the idea that the defenders have to "race" the attackers to objectives. This is particularly a problem on Rackowice since the objectives are so damn far apart. (Running over to defend the bunker can be ridiculously hard and time consuming, for example). Still, for some reason, that map is incredibly hard to take, even with the disadvantages.
 
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#12
While this would certainly be a nice idea, and i personally would love to have defenders initially spawn in their defensive line, what it in fact usually means is that the so called 'defenders' will leave their defensive position to advance to the attackers spawn. So all you do is move up the front line in front of the defensive position a mapper created.

This just has to do with the way people play games. While in real life you would be ordered to stay put in your foxhole or whatever defensive position you might have set up, in game, almost every single one of you guys will advance instead. I can guarantuee that. :)

So, it's basically mappers trying to compensate for the lack of actual military orders and you guys obeying them :)
 
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#14
Well on maps like Lyes Krovy, Basovka, and even Rakowice a minefield could easily be used to prevent that SasQuatch. This would stop people from leaving the defensive trenches/bunkers/etc. and wouldn't even be that unrealistic. Certainly a better alternative than rushing to the first cap zone as a defender only to run into a hail of grenades and have the attackers already inside. ;)
 
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#15
Diamond said:
There are multiple maps which have this 'problem'. I'll try to explain it using Rakowice.


When the map Rakowice starts, the Germans have to get to the perimeter defenses as quickly as they can. But no matter how quick they are, there will always be some quick russians that have managed to reach the cap zone before you, or at the same time as you arrive there.

It is nearly impossible to get a bit of a foothold on those outer defenses. 90% of the time they will be overrun in 30 seconds if not immediatly.
I think the defenders spawn should be closer to the initial objective then the attackers spawn. So they can set up a bit of a defense.

Also, I'm only talking about spawning closer to the initial defenses, not about the rest of the objectives.

A map that does an excellent job at this is Lyes Krovy, the Germans have some time to set up their MGs and get ready for the Russians. This mostly results in a slaughter for the Russians, but as soon as they get past that initial bump, things even out.


This really isn't a rant, I like very map's design, but this is just something that should be changed in my opinion. :eek:
Click to expand...

I kind of like it the way it is. Makes it a more reaslistic representation of an attack where one side is rushing to defend or attack a point and requires the team to work together. On the map you mention, that point can be taken by either side with a small fight if the team works together and gets some co-ordination.
I find that most of the time, the problems that some people have with some maps/spawns etc can are easily overcome when you end up on a server or happen to have on that map a really good team that communicates/VOIP's and listens to each other.
 
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#16
DrGuppy said:
Well on maps like Lyes Krovy, Basovka, and even Rakowice a minefield could easily be used to prevent that SasQuatch. This would stop people from leaving the defensive trenches/bunkers/etc. and wouldn't even be that unrealistic. Certainly a better alternative than rushing to the first cap zone as a defender only to run into a hail of grenades and have the attackers already inside. ;)
Click to expand...

Right, I've been thinking of that, putting a mine field in front of the first line of defence on rakowice, and then you would see the germans getting blown by their own minefield and the russians just stolling through it. Somehow that doesn't fit in my brain in such a particular scenario :) Mine fields are 'wobbely' as it is already, I'd prefer to have none, but you lot keep forcing me to protect spawns etc because you just can't behave ;)

In LeysKrovy, I made it so the first objective looks a bit shelled. Now I don't have dead soldiers meshes, but they actually should be there as well. Basically, the story would be: artyillery barrage kills tghe germans in that part of the section, russians attack directly after the barrage. Maybe I should have put in a Barrage to make that story clear :) But, in any case, the design RELIES on a first objective to fall within 1 to 3 minutes.
 
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#17
SasQuatch said:
In LeysKrovy, I made it so the first objective looks a bit shelled. Now I don't have dead soldiers meshes, but they actually should be there as well. Basically, the story would be: artyillery barrage kills tghe germans in that part of the section, russians attack directly after the barrage. Maybe I should have put in a Barrage to make that story clear :) But, in any case, the design RELIES on a first objective to fall within 1 to 3 minutes.
Click to expand...

If it's possible to do that (preliminary artillery barrage) in the first few seconds of the map, do it... That would be awesome!

Map starts, artillery falls and kills a buch of bots (or rather manniquens), and the rest of the Germans are like "Oh Noes! They're breaking through on the left!" and must sprint to the first objective.

This also works for Rackowice as well... :)
 
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#18
Rameusb5 said:
If it's possible to do that (preliminary artillery barrage) in the first few seconds of the map, do it... That would be awesome!

Map starts, artillery falls and kills a buch of bots (or rather manniquens), and the rest of the Germans are like "Oh Noes! They're breaking through on the left!" and must sprint to the first objective.

This also works for Rackowice as well... :)
Click to expand...

I can't put bots in to be killed, but i could spawn you guys right into the artillery barrage lol :D

Anyway, yeah it's possible to spawn a barrage at round start, problem is that anyone who is fast enough to get into the front line, runs the risk of getting killed by a last few shells if the round start time has ben set to short... I don't want to punish the fast ones though.
 
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#19
In my experience, Sasquatch is absolutely right about people advancing. Even if you DO put in a minefield, they'll still advance. People in video games are impatient. They want action NOWNOWNOW!! and they often don't defend. RO is better than most because savvy players know the advantage of a strong defensive position, but even then, some people just need their fix of killing people instead of realizing that by staying put they're protecting their line BETTER than if they run out, kill three guys, get killed and have to run back.

Snowy Forest is a classic example of this. The Germans beat back the first wave of Soviets, and then even if the Squad Leader is dropping artillery towards the front of the first capture zone (you can still hold it from the rear and be WELL out of range), people will rush into it anyway. It's just how folks play games like this (most of the time).
 
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#20
SasQuatch said:
I can't put bots in to be killed, but i could spawn you guys right into the artillery barrage lol :D
Click to expand...

How about this?

Make the initial spawn "Ground zero," and call down an artillery barrage IMMEDIATELY upon map start. This will kill everyone who spawns in (within the first 10 seconds or so). Up the reinforcement percentages to compensate...

That would achieve the affect you're looking for I think...

Good stuff!
 
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