Poll are the tanks broken or messed up

[Solo4114]

There's a few minor issues with tanks from what I can tell.

1.) Overmodelling of armor.

I think the armor at the ranges of the OFFICIAL maps is overmodelled. This MAY have been done on purpose. Most official maps don't have you engaging the enemy at anything over 600m. Occasionally you'll go up to 750 but even that's a stretch. This is why, for example, a Tiger firing on a T34 at 500m will not necessarily penetrate, when it should be penetrating at damn near any angle.
It's also why an IS2 firing at 30m won't penetrate a Tiger's armor when it should probably be cutting through it like a hot knife through butter.

My hunch is that this is due to the range factor for penetration actually dropping off at a certain point. In other words, if the range is < 400m (or 500m or whatever it is), it's treated identically as if the range was only 50m. So, armor is overmodelled for ranges BELOW what most engagements are in the official maps.

However, if you play the non-official maps, armor is modeled quite well and seems realistic. A Tiger on Black Day in July-RC33 can take seemingly infinite hits from the front and properly angled side armor at ranges over around 600-700m, while still being just as deadly with its own gun.

My hunch is that all of this has been done on purpose, given the range of official maps. If it wasn't, every tank battle would be a one or two hit battle, just like before they fixed the tanks in the more recent patch. It'd just be hammers vs. eggshells.


2.) Certain "Critical Hit" zones are missing


The biggest of these is obviously the crew compartment. Right now, a penetrating shot that ONLY hits the crew compartment and doesn't hit the ammo or engine, will simply do "overall" damage (IE: white to yellow, yellow to red or destroyed). I think this is a big source of people's "WTF??? WHY ISN'T THAT TANK DEAD" frustration and complaints about realism. If crew compartments were modelled as a kill zone, you'd see tank battles over a LOT quicker. Again, this may be on purpose, given the range of combat in official maps.

There's nothing wrong with abstracting the "overall damage" to the tank in terms of the "hitpoints" system, but it ends up frustrating people when they actually DO get a penetrating shot on the crew compartment and the tank isn't "killed." Adding other areas like the wheels, optics, cupola, etc. is just gravy, but the crew compartment is needed. At the very least, damage in the form of "a hit to this location kills the loader, a hit to that location kills the driver, and a hit here kills the commander/gunner". Or perhaps hits to these areas not only kill but disable the positions themselves (IE: a hit on the hull MG position disables it -- not that anyone ever really uses it anyway...).


3.) Minor issue, but APCR ammo is just...off.

It's supposed to lose power over range, but it doesn't really seem to be doing that. It just seems to be overall more powerful than AP. The AP seems appropriately powered (IE: it ****s all around pretty much equally ), but APCR just seems to be the "more powerful" ammo.



One thing to realize, though, is that if they implement more realistic tanking, you're gonna need more realistic official MAPS. As it stands, all the official maps are too close range to allow for realistic penetration data, or else tank battles would all be one-shot affairs.

 

[vonRas]

In WWII, shells were produced with and without "tracers".
Actually, now that I come to think about it, did the two sides use the same "tracer" material in their tank shells as for their small arms rounds?
If so, shouldn't the Russian shells look green ???

Im not talking about ammo tracers, they are more or less fine, except germans used red tracers, not yellow, and Im against using them with MGs on every single map as it takes enemy snipers a few seconds to locate the mg position even on a daylight map.

What Im talking about are those large fireballs flying over arad

 

[Recce]

Im not talking about ammo tracers, they are more or less fine, except germans used red tracers, not yellow, and Im against using them with MGs on every single map as it takes enemy snipers a few seconds to locate the mg position even on a daylight map.

What Im talking about are those large fireballs flying over arad

I am talking about the tank main guns (75mm, 88mm, etc), not the co-axial MG.
As this is going off thread, I've started a new one.
http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11883

BTW, I don't get the dark patch in the middle.

 

[vonRas]

BTW, I don't get the dark patch in the middle.

Well it's the actual shell in the game, you can see very well, it has right forms (not just stupid cannonball from the mod) but this fireball effect is completely wrong, you can't see it flying like that, it's very easy to fix tho, just get rid of the fire spray via a mutator (granted some1 will code it )

 

[Harry S. Truman]

All I can say is that I've had one shot kills many times.

Yeah...me too.

Too many people try to roll up at any range and any angle and pump round after round into a target without effect. As if, "one round won't kill it, perhaps 10 will".

The fact is, there is no "hit point" system. I've had a tank in the red deflect many shots. There just isn't any other way to show accumulated damage. The same goes for when a tank is knocked out. Currently there's no other way to show the tank is destryoed other than exploding and burning. It's the same how even just "wounded" infantry are killed outright, as they would be combat ineffective anyway.

There are still some armor bugs but overall it behaves very well. You still need to get the proper shot to get the kill. Most of you tend to think just because some table says "X penetration at Y distance" it should happen with every shot. This is NOT the case! Most penetration tables should have some kind of disclaimer about the percentage chance of maximum penetration. Angling the armor does have a very distinct effect on the kinetic energy of the penetrator as more of the energy is STILL WITH THE SHELL after glancing on the armor. To achieve penetration, a greater portion of the kinectic energy of the shell must be applied to the armor.

The myth about deadly German tank guns, is supposed to be at LONG ranges. We can't get those ranges on any RO map, therefore the closer we get, the less advantage German guns have. At these ranges it's all about manuver.

There are one shot kills all the time, the trouble is, most of you don't know how to shoot. I've ridden with and spectated enough to see how terrible most people are in the gunners position. They are just happy to hit the target, let alone actually hit it where it will do some good.

Yeah, there are some tweaks that need to be made. But the tank systems is fun and seems correct. No, 90% of the people won't say it's "broken" but 90% of people need to learn how to manuver and where to shoot.

 

[jtkalal]

Yeah...me too.

Too many people try to roll up at any range and any angle and pump round after round into a target without effect. As if, "one round won't kill it, perhaps 10 will".

The fact is, there is no "hit point" system. I've had a tank in the red deflect many shots. There just isn't any other way to show accumulated damage. The same goes for when a tank is knocked out. Currently there's no other way to show the tank is destryoed other than exploding and burning. It's the same how even just "wounded" infantry are killed outright, as they would be combat ineffective anyway.

There are still some armor bugs but overall it behaves very well. You still need to get the proper shot to get the kill. Most of you tend to think just because some table says "X penetration at Y distance" it should happen with every shot. This is NOT the case! Most penetration tables should have some kind of disclaimer about the percentage chance of maximum penetration. Angling the armor does have a very distinct effect on the kinetic energy of the penetrator as more of the energy is STILL WITH THE SHELL after glancing on the armor. To achieve penetration, a greater portion of the kinectic energy of the shell must be applied to the armor.

The myth about deadly German tank guns, is supposed to be at LONG ranges. We can't get those ranges on any RO map, therefore the closer we get, the less advantage German guns have. At these ranges it's all about manuver.

There are one shot kills all the time, the trouble is, most of you don't know how to shoot. I've ridden with and spectated enough to see how terrible most people are in the gunners position. They are just happy to hit the target, let alone actually hit it where it will do some good.

Yeah, there are some tweaks that need to be made. But the tank systems is fun and seems correct. No, 90% of the people won't say it's "broken" but 90% of people need to learn how to manuver and where to shoot.

lol harry you just come into threads disscusing how things need some tweaks and basicly say "you guys **** it works I pwzer with it you need to learn how to use it right" Anyways yes there is hitpoints if the tank gets hit anywhere besides the amno or engine it will go down one level IE white to yellow.

 

[Zbojnik]

Hmm, I've voted re-do but reading Witzig's post that means you can't do it. So a lot of tweaks could fix it.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

lol harry you just come into threads disscusing how things need some tweaks and basicly say "you guys **** it works I pwzer with it you need to learn how to use it right" Anyways yes there is hitpoints if the tank gets hit anywhere besides the amno or engine it will go down one level IE white to yellow.

That's because I hear a lot of people blaming the game for what is basically poor play. If the shoe fits.......

If you want proof that people can't drive a tank, or can't shoot (and they REALLY can't shoot....), just spectate any armor map for awhile. A little practice and using the range setting can get you a very high percentage of first hits, but I don't worry about that, because most of you miss the first shot. I laugh at all the people who say the Tiger on Konigsplatz stinks, it's the key to a German victory and is more than a match for BOTH Soviet tanks.

The only thing I see worse than gunnery is driving. Manuver is the key, yet 90% of you don't do it. You pull up, MAYBE angle the tank correctly (most of the time you just point the nose towards the target), and start pounding on a target until either you or it is destoryed. Fire and move, no one does it. I rarely see people use cover or move from cover to cover. It's sad really. It's more difficult to do solo, but it can be done.

I'm just getting tired of people causally playing the game, without mastering ANY of it's nuiances (and there are many), and then coming here screaming "IT'S BROKEN!!!!".

 

[jtkalal]

That's because I hear a lot of people blaming the game for what is basically poor play. If the shoe fits.......

If you want proof that people can't drive a tank, or can't shoot (and they REALLY can't shoot....), just spectate any armor map for awhile. A little practice and using the range setting can get you a very high percentage of first hits, but I don't worry about that, because most of you miss the first shot. I laugh at all the people who say the Tiger on Konigsplatz stinks, it's the key to a German victory and is more than a match for BOTH Soviet tanks.

The only thing I see worse than gunnery is driving. Manuver is the key, yet 90% of you don't do it. You pull up, MAYBE angle the tank correctly (most of the time you just point the nose towards the target), and start pounding on a target until either you or it is destoryed. Fire and move, no one does it. I rarely see people use cover or move from cover to cover. It's sad really. It's more difficult to do solo, but it can be done.

I'm just getting tired of people causally playing the game, without mastering ANY of it's nuiances (and there are many), and then coming here screaming "IT'S BROKEN!!!!".

Hahaha dont count those tards you seem to see every where as the majority.

 

[Dheepan]

Imo the tank maps from the mod were much better because you didn't always run into these points blank shootouts. The official tank maps should just be remade into combined arms and then we'll have real tank maps. I remember the complaint for the old arad was that it was TOO HUGE imagine that.

I remember once I was the Russian commander and I called in an artillery strike from the Village watchout tower and see it knock out 4-5 german tanks that were advancing on our position that was better than any time I've had on the ROOST Arad.

 

[Eater1]

I really don't think the armor system is that broken. It has a few oddities, like the SU-76 (really, the Soviets should get different tank-killers later in the war, then this thing can be turned down a bit in the armor department). However, the angling is fine, and after the last patch, the deflection seems almost perfect. It would be nice if there was a sharper divide between "can" and "can't" penetrate - for more tactical depth, - where some of the heavier tanks could almost never be penetrated from the front by lighter tanks (e.g. T-34/76 vs. Tiger, Pz IV vs. IS-2), but honestly, such engagements don't happen all that often anyway, and when they do, the lighter tank rarely wins out, so it's not that big a deal. Being able to kill the crew would be a good addition, but that could probably be implemented just fine in the current system. The tanks have come a VERY long way from the point-and-click cars from the first RO mod version that featured them, and I really appreciate all of the improvements.
I think more than anything, what needs to be reworked is not the armor system, but the method of crewing tanks, so that the hull MG is not always unoccupied, and so that there is a good and effective way for ANY commander to communicate with ANY driver (like the ability to issue move commands with mouse clicks - something even the least experienced players would understand, and which doesn't require VOIP).

 

[Neuromante]

Imo the tank maps from the mod were much better because you didn't always run into these points blank shootouts. The official tank maps should just be remade into combined arms and then we'll have real tank maps.

So true. I miss Kalinin.

 

[Sichartshofen]

The myth about deadly German tank guns, is supposed to be at LONG ranges. We can't get those ranges on any RO map, therefore the closer we get, the less advantage German guns have. At these ranges it's all about manuver.

The closer you get the more penetration the gun has.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

The closer you get the more penetration the gun has.

I KNOW that...but the penetration of allied tanks get better too. In other words, the advantage the German had was lethality at LONG range, which we don't really have in the game. At 150 meters, ALL the guns are lethal.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

The closer you get the more penetration the gun has.

Yeah, he is not making any sense at all.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

That's because I hear a lot of people blaming the game for what is basically poor play. If the shoe fits.......

If you want proof that people can't drive a tank, or can't shoot (and they REALLY can't shoot....), just spectate any armor map for awhile. A little practice and using the range setting can get you a very high percentage of first hits, but I don't worry about that, because most of you miss the first shot. I laugh at all the people who say the Tiger on Konigsplatz stinks, it's the key to a German victory and is more than a match for BOTH Soviet tanks.

The only thing I see worse than gunnery is driving. Manuver is the key, yet 90% of you don't do it. You pull up, MAYBE angle the tank correctly (most of the time you just point the nose towards the target), and start pounding on a target until either you or it is destoryed. Fire and move, no one does it. I rarely see people use cover or move from cover to cover. It's sad really. It's more difficult to do solo, but it can be done.

I'm just getting tired of people causally playing the game, without mastering ANY of it's nuiances (and there are many), and then coming here screaming "IT'S BROKEN!!!!".

do you know what you talk about?

Why dont you take your time to read carefuly. NO seriously. It is the same as with MGs and other flaws this game has. Dont you have noticed alraedy, that people here blame the game, for things, that are obviously ?

When i encouter a bug in game, like the sometimes frustrating system we have to pick up weapons, and i try to do that in game, but it doesnt work, is it then my game style that makes it wrong? How can my way of gaming, have a effect on the efficenc from the powerfull (Tiger, Panther IS2) gun im using ?

It must be hard, to understand, when people tell, that the T34/76, SU-76 and Panther have just not enough armor to have richochets that often, all the time. On 150m the velocity from the IS2 is just big enough, that a well aimed shoot at the panthers turret ALONE, will have serious damage, it will not always destroy the tank, but you can expect for sure some serious damage. And from such close range even the T34/85 shoud be possible to do some damage on the panther, frontal (without angling here now), though, it bounces of near evry time, but from german battle-reports, the T34/85, was able to penetrate the panthers front armor on short to midle ranges when it was a direct hit.

you shoud eraly not assume something into the majority, if you do so. As there are for sure people, that dont know how to use a tank, but there isnt realy something to know, how to use, when you have your shell richochet in a unrealistic way. I do not say, it woud never happen, but were talking here from long range distances, where richochets have been way more common, on such short ranges, as barashka and ogledow, heh, well, that are somewhat unrealistic battles anyway, which represent maybe 10% of the tank fights on the east front.

and i have read now, that some assume this overangling was done, to compensate the short ranges on some maps to make fights more intersting (though, on Orel, i have even on short ranges, constantly shells from the tiger bouncing off from the T34/76 armor), if this is realy true, i have to say, that ROO is even much more unrealistic then i thought before. Cause such a thing, is just ridiculous, seriously, this woud just be a pathetic feature, to make a game someway realistic so you can call it realistc then. Not even near a "simulation" like level, which the game tells us to be.

I hope you understand, some of the peoples frustration here, cause many bought this game, with somewhat, ill call it, wrong expactations. maybe this woud have been different, when the package or game woud have include a "game still under construction".

 

[Harry S. Truman]

and i have read now, that some assume this overangling was done, to compensate the short ranges on some maps to make fights more intersting (though, on Orel, i have even on short ranges, constantly shells from the tiger bouncing off from the T34/76 armor), if this is realy true, i have to say, that ROO is even much more unrealistic then i thought before. Cause such a thing, is just ridiculous, seriously, this woud just be a pathetic feature, to make a game someway realistic so you can call it realistc then. Not even near a "simulation" like level, which the game tells us to be.

I hope you understand, some of the peoples frustration here, cause many bought this game, with somewhat, ill call it, wrong expactations. maybe this woud have been different, when the package or game woud have include a "game still under construction".

Why don't you just go play another game? You obviously don't find this game fun. Truthfully, I DON'T understand. All I know is that you don't like anything about the game. You complain about it constantly. You complain about the "lack of realism" on everything. What the hell do you expect from a friggin video game? There's no doubt in my mind that RO:OST does it better than any other FIRST PERSON SHOOTER I have ever played. Yet, somehow that is not good enough for you.

Take my advice, delete the game from your hard drive. Delete your account on this board, and you will never have to be unhappy about how much this game suxs ever again. Of course, you'll want to complain how you "wasted" $25.

 

[Oldih]

Why don't you just go play another game? You obviously don't find this game fun

Well even OFP

 

[Rak]

The fact is, there is no "hit point" system. I've had a tank in the red deflect many shots. There just isn't any other way to show accumulated damage. The same goes for when a tank is knocked out. Currently there's no other way to show the tank is destryoed other than exploding and burning. It's the same how even just "wounded" infantry are killed outright, as they would be combat ineffective anyway.

You just don't get it, do you? There IS a hitpoint system AFTER penetration is achieved.

The game only calculates if it penetrated or not, then it's gamey hitpoint time.


And it's BS.

You talk about how German tanks are good at long ranges, but you just don't go into why they can't blow the crap out of T-34's in 50mt. The reason is not "shooting at right place".

And your only explanation is "Master the game.", yeah right. I'm here for realism, and I expect similiar results to RL. I used to enjoy tanking in RO, but not anymore. I can't stand how it's off RL.

 

[Plaid13]

I dont know what kinda tweaks the devs have planned for the tank rework but it sure needs a hell of a overhaul. the hit point system does need to go. But i would like to see alot more damageable spots on the tanks. Cannon turret track so the turret cant rotate tracks should be a whole lot easier to knock off and if only one track is destroyed that tank sould be able to still rotate in at least one direction. the engine on fire still working as well as normal is fine with me but... after a few min of burning it should stop working. The tanks MG should be destroyable and all the crew should be able to be killed while in the tank if a shell penetrates there.

Tanks need more torque! more realistic mobility and the ability to crash through objects. at least small fences and trees even if they arnt destroyed on the map. a barb wire fence shouldnt stop a tank let the tank drive through it and just pretend it popped back up after the tank passed. a tank should be able to climb over a three foot tall stone fence without much trouble at all.

Personaly i would love to give the driver a more realistic setting. Remove the gauges from the hud and put them in the tank so you need to change veiw from looking through the veiwport to see how fast your going or what your RPM is. not like anyone really needs to know that anyway would just add a bit of fluff to the game. Gear shifts would also be great!! Putting it into low gear to climb a hill would be amusing. somehow i dont think automatic transmission was standard on these things back then.

The spot on the tank thats hit should only effect whats hit. So if the engine is totaly destroyed it shouldnt blow up it just shouldnt move. if the cannon and machine gun and engine are destroyed it still shouldnt blow up it should just be a worthless hunk of metal thats not good for anything but hiding in. let it burst into flames and blow up if its abandoned while damaged. just to make sure it respawns. if the drivers veiwport is damaged then he shouldnt be able to see without opening the hatch. same for the gunner. Would love to see a gunner trying to make shots without its sites because his sites were damaged.

Ok im not sure if this was a real problem or not.. but on the kv1 it cant seem to aim down at all so if your tank is level and someone is down hill below you your just out of luck. i think that should be looked into and fixed if its not right or left alone if it was a real problem with the kv1.