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Beta Map [Beta 1] RO-Berezina

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#81
I've played this twice so far and as a mapper there's a few things I have noticed.

- Great map, especially since you're new to the UE engine. :cool:

- Lighting is a bit on the dark side for static meshes. The treelines especially look almost black in some places.

- The bushes around the treelines are bulletproof. Turn off their collision completely if they are seperate static meshes. If they are part of the larger treeline mesh turn off collision to that and put in a blocking volume. (checking Arad should explain it better)

- Your decolayer (grass) floats in some places. Go into your Terrain Info Actor and look for a setting called 'DecoLayerOffset' and set that to -10 or so.

- At the last Russian defence line (overlooking the bridge) there is a hole in the terrain. Looks like you meant to put in one of those dugouts but never got the chance to.

- No spawn protection was a problem every round I played. Please make this a priority.

- The Russian tank dugouts are good but they discourage teamwork. If I am driving a KV1 and my gunner wants to go into a dugout I have absolutely nothing to do until he gets killed. Normally I would switch to machine gunner or scan for enemies but in the dugouts I can't do either. I understand they are meant to be hull down positions but this isn't good for gameplay. I suggest lowering the front just enough for the machine gun to hit the ridgeline. You could put a crater in front of the dugout and blow apart a portion of the wall to make it look realistic if you need to.

- Russian trench system is far too dark. I witnessed many players (including myself) get lost even though the layout is not that complicated.

- Personally I would go through each of the spawn locations and rotate the PlayerStarts (Hold Ctrl + RMB) towards the enemy. Sometimes I would spawn up, start running forward, and realize I was going the wrong way.

- First Russian KV1 spawn is a bit misleading because some players do not know you can drive through the trees so they start going off in a different direction. I would delete or knock a few over to make a visual path towards the road leading to the enemy.

- Since tanks cannot go through fences I would really consider knocking most of them over, especially along the main routes.

- Radios are not visible on the map. We had our Squad Leader running around everywhere trying to find a radio one round.

- To keep the performance up use zoning and cull distances for static meshes inside buildings. Some places could really use the detail.

That's all I can remember at this point. This is shaping up to be quite a map and I urge you not to rush to a final version too quickly. There's nothing wrong with releasing a Beta 2 and going to work on your next map. After a month or so of Beta 2 check the comments on the map and if nobody has any real problems with the map release it as a final.

You should hang out in the #RO-LevelDesign IRC channel too. All the cool mappers do it. ;) Oh and finally, add a T60! For variety and coolness. You know you want to.
 
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#82
DrGuppy said:
I've played this twice so far and as a mapper there's a few things I have noticed.

- Great map, especially since you're new to the UE engine. :cool:

- Lighting is a bit on the dark side for static meshes. The treelines especially look almost black in some places.
+ I still have a lot to learn, especially with so many unique settings for each element. I'll look into this. Good point.

- The bushes around the treelines are bulletproof. Turn off their collision completely if they are seperate static meshes. If they are part of the larger treeline mesh turn off collision to that and put in a blocking volume. (checking Arad should explain it better)
+ Didn't even consider the fact that I could make them non-colliding. I think these are the tree groups from Arad. The block players and ammo but not vehicles. I did clip everything with volumes, but I will reset their collision. Thanks for the point.

- Your decolayer (grass) floats in some places. Go into your Terrain Info Actor and look for a setting called 'DecoLayerOffset' and set that to -10 or so.
+ Did not realize that the offset would be that effective there. I'll add that tweak. I had tried to use 'smooth' to get the models to set better. Thanks.

- At the last Russian defence line (overlooking the bridge) there is a hole in the terrain. Looks like you meant to put in one of those dugouts but never got the chance to.
+ I actually had all of these fixed and the objectives properly working but somewhere in creating the release .zip file, it did not update.... Really bummed it went out with those errors.

- No spawn protection was a problem every round I played. Please make this a priority.
+ Didn't add any spawn protections. I still may not. We'll see. I did add 'No Arty' volumes at all vehicle spawns, and in some cases that covers infantry as well. Probably by 'final' I will have protections but in most cases I think it's not necessary, but that's my opinion.

- The Russian tank dugouts are good but they discourage teamwork. If I am driving a KV1 and my gunner wants to go into a dugout I have absolutely nothing to do until he gets killed. Normally I would switch to machine gunner or scan for enemies but in the dugouts I can't do either. I understand they are meant to be hull down positions but this isn't good for gameplay. I suggest lowering the front just enough for the machine gun to hit the ridgeline. You could put a crater in front of the dugout and blow apart a portion of the wall to make it look realistic if you need to.
+ I see your point, but changing the front walls removes the protection and thus the entire point. There is still a matter or tweaking the role loadouts and probably reducing both teams numbers to keep the infantry focus with armor support. Once we get the BT7 in the map, things will change as I plan to remove one KV and add two BTs in it's place. The BTs should change the game play a good bit. It's looking good now.

- Russian trench system is far too dark. I witnessed many players (including myself) get lost even though the layout is not that complicated.
+ I assume you mean the tunnels. I wish that there was a proper 'clear' lantern model. Wrecks the pretty fuzzy lamp glow. I can either bump the brightness or add more lights. Not sure if I will expand that section.
- Personally I would go through each of the spawn locations and rotate the PlayerStarts (Hold Ctrl + RMB) towards the enemy. Sometimes I would spawn up, start running forward, and realize I was going the wrong way.
+ In most cases this is done. there might be a couple where it isn't practical based on where the spawns are. I see your point but guys will learn where they are and have that compass.
- First Russian KV1 spawn is a bit misleading because some players do not know you can drive through the trees so they start going off in a different direction. I would delete or knock a few over to make a visual path towards the road leading to the enemy.
+ Eh. Learn the map. I don't believe in hand holding.

- Since tanks cannot go through fences I would really consider knocking most of them over, especially along the main routes.
+ Nope. Won't do it. There are so few methods available to a mapper to sculpt the flow. Granted the realism is damaged by not having the fences be destructible, but they serve a purpose and in many cases give the infantry help in avoiding tanks. I think there are many tactical issues added to a map vs having no fences. In realism terms, there should be x10 more fences around, higher, and more solid, overgrown with tons of plant life but we can't do that either.

- Radios are not visible on the map. We had our Squad Leader running around everywhere trying to find a radio one round.
+ There is a map key... the white 'A' in a circle indicates each radio fairly spot-on. People need to help themselves. Having big red radio icons confuses the map. It's already scaled so small that stuff is almost on top of each other.

- To keep the performance up use zoning and cull distances for static meshes inside buildings. Some places could really use the detail.
+ Working on improving the zones. Already getting upwards of 20 FPS more in many areas. I figured I could go back through and set the cull distances fairly low on the details in the houses, etc. I'm not big on doing detail work, hate it terribly, actually as I don't think it adds anything to gameplay and only taxes the system. I understand the ambient needs so I do it...but I will not add more and more crap just so it looks pretty if it is going to cost me FPS. I released 'as is' to get base line feedback knowing there would be lots of moaning over lack of plates and cups. It will come, but it is far from a priority.

That's all I can remember at this point. This is shaping up to be quite a map and I urge you not to rush to a final version too quickly. There's nothing wrong with releasing a Beta 2 and going to work on your next map. After a month or so of Beta 2 check the comments on the map and if nobody has any real problems with the map release it as a final.
+ Beta2 most likely in the next 7-10 days. I want to optimize more and get some internal testing done to benchmark the changes, especially since I have added more details and zone portal work. One thing I don't do is hurry up with 18 beta versions. I prefer only two before a 'final' but I would go '3' deep on this one to get it as right as possible.

You should hang out in the #RO-LevelDesign IRC channel too. All the cool mappers do it. ;) Oh and finally, add a T60! For variety and coolness. You know you want to.
+ I don't have the time for more 'chat'. ;) Lex, Teufelhund and I hang in our own little TeamSpeak channel at After-Hourz and talk through our projects.
+ T60? Not on your life. I hate that crap-wagon. hahaha I do. However, we actually have a 'Frankentank' that was T60 chassis and PzIII turret. Altered gun and all, fired like, and drove like our future BT7. Since we are back to a full body T60 with modified cannon, damage system, etc. It works great and has logged dozens of miles on a 'Berezina' test map. It might debut in Beta2 'as is' ... meaning a T60 body, with all the BT attributes if we are lagging on the BT release/implementation.
Click to expand...

All in all, I appreciate you taking time to post the comments. It's all valuable to me. I'm still learning a lot with the UT engine and all these attributes. I have tried to focus on construction, flow and overall gameplay to this point. I want to get that stuff honed before venturing off into the 'looks' department, but that is already well underway and anyone looking at the pre-beta2 version would see the changes easily.
 
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#83
I played it probably six hours yesterday at least. holy crap, it's the best time I have had playing RO period. time for some screenies for the un-inititated!! :)

looking over the horizon for le boche!! ;)


819onezq5.jpg



Dead halftrack. I did this for at least 15 minutes of game time here at this spot. I think i got at least 15 co-axial MG kills in this zone as well.


819threewg3.jpg



Got one!! A PzIII falls to my KV1:


819fournk8.jpg



Overwatch on a cap zone (the bridge on the russian right flank):


819fivelq3.jpg



RTR Represent!! :D


819tworo1.jpg



I want to play (instead of type), so my overall review of this map will have to wait. let me boil it down for the moment:
This is the best CA map made for the game, if not the best map in the game right now. They way the map is designed requires team work to win. the design is brilliant. I played on Russians and Germans, both as winners and losers. The team work won. Words are not enough, frankly...

(EDIT: Slyk, you should be giving map advice, not taking it. :D, you are a modest man. :) ).
 
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#84
Great map but also greatly limited by the 32 players limit.

Seems like nothing happens in the entire north part of the map. Even if there's a trench system to defend the bridge, I have never seen russians use it. In fact, most of the defensive positions are nearly empty except for the last, smaller Russian position.
 
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#86
This map was designed to be very unique in that it had 2 paths to approach the main Village.

The Germans could take the Northern route after taking the CrossRoads and the OutPost or the Southern route. Once the Germans decided which route they wanted to attack from, by taking the next cap zone in either route, then the opposite routes cap zones would shut down and the Germans would be forced to take the remainder of the cap zones in that route, northern or southern.

We could not get the cap zones and the spawns to cooperate using the 2 route system. That idea has not died and Slyk will implement it when and if he gets it figured out. That is why the northern route is not used to much only in flanking situations, but with the other system it would be used heavily.


I hope that was clear, I don't know if I understand it now after proof reading my post. lol

Lex
 
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#87
If you read the original 'Preview' thread, I explain in there how I wanted to use two flank options for the Germans. Once they took the '1st Line', they could go either north or south to reach the village. Once the village was captured, the other line of objectives would lock out and any Russians 'behind' the lines would be on their own, without hope of timely reinforcements. The flanked objectives would then be flipped to German control...that's where we hit the wall.

I think I have all the other logic figured out. The other challenge was coordinating the spaws in regions where the Russian had a chance to support either flank (We desperately need a Russian transport vehicle). With this implemented, this map would play bigger, and maybe that would be a bad thing. I don't know. As it is, the Russians should still be dedicating a KV and some infantry to guard the north road. Any German attack against a balanced and organized Russian team will be pointless without using the flanks.
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[Rant]
I played numerous hours Saturday on this map on a couple servers. Maybe it is the number of new players to RO but I have seldom witnessed the ineptness of so many in so short a time. I was thoroughly frustrated and nearly walked away a few times.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR BRAINS, PEOPLE, YOU CAN NOT RECAP THE GREYED OUT OBJECTIVES YOU ARE ONLY WASTING YOUR PRECIOUS REINFORCEMENT POOL CHARGING HEADLONG INTO THE GERMAN ARMOR. WHAT PART OF FALL BACK TO THE FREAKING RIVER LINE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???????????????????????????? AND WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU SPAWN IN PERFECT COVER YET LEAVE SAID COVER TO RUN OVER 50 YARDS OF NAKED RIVER, CRAWL UP THE WEST BANK AND CONTINUE TO RUN STRAIGHT AT PANZERS??????????????????????????
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I serioulsy felt like TKing nearly half the team one round...if I'd had a sniper rifle... It is entirely possible for the Russians to fall back with 20-30% reinforcements and HOLD the river line IF they stay put, rely on savy tank use (IE USE THE DAMN HOLES IN THE GROUND and don't jump in an occupied tank and DRIVE IT OUT OF THE FREAKING PIT!!!!!!) and conserve arty to blast any Germans trying to cap the east bank. Furthermore, I decree that the Russian team should ALWAYS fall back, regardless of situation, when they hit 30%. On one occassion the Russian team held the '2nd Line' well into the 30th minute but were being depleted fast by HE rounds. When the KVs are used up, it's time to go. Had the ENTIRE team went with and stuck to the plan, we would have won, not run out of troops with only 3 or so minutes to go.
[/Rant]

I sort of feel better. Thanks. So, in summary, yes the north route is underused at the moment other than as a flanking route as it should be in this configuration. Fighting for the north farm heights could be cool though. And yes, noobs **** but so do seasoned players who can't think in terms of 'winning as a team'.
 
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#90
I haven't played this map as my gaming PC has suffered from a power surge and all the chips are fried (urgh). I'm very excited by all your descriptions and stories of gameplay but i'd like to know how useful the PTRD has been in thwarting the panzers. Are they best used in pre prepared defensive positions or are they best used creeping up behind the panzers?
 
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#91
{Cap-Down} said:
I haven't played this map as my gaming PC has suffered from a power surge and all the chips are fried (urgh). I'm very excited by all your descriptions and stories of gameplay but i'd like to know how useful the PTRD has been in thwarting the panzers. Are they best used in pre prepared defensive positions or are they best used creeping up behind the panzers?
Click to expand...

Well, as long as I am not using one, they seem to work well. It appears most of the users have success from behind prepare positions, and are best at taking out the halftracks that are supporting the tanks.
 
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#93
Fantastic map, I would be happy if you left it as is :p

Perhaps some more Allied engineers or be able to pickup faust’s /satchels from the ammo re-supply points would assist the allies.


Rounds I have played have all ended with an Axis win, Allies losing due to reinforcements. But, as you’ve mentioned yourself thats probably the wrong tactics employed buy the Allies.


Keep it up great work.
 
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#95
Excellent map I enjoyed playing with Heinz and Slyk the other day. I dont know where you find the time to put stuff like this together Slyk but you do it well. The only thing that I saw that I have not read yet is that the arrow on Obj map is not entirely accurate you may need to move your map bounds a bit. The german satchels were annoying but that is what you get when your infantry leaves you all alone. Now if we can just get more talkers in the game.
 
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#97
Excellent, very ambitious map - I took a look at the chicken coops and found that they were made out of BSP. Not that I'm a big fan of chicken coops but that kinda detail means a lot of work but adds to the feel greatly.

Maybe if you could use a few more non-kit textures and even meshes (if you can find someone willing to contribute - and by now you should be able) the map look unique in addition to playing unique.

For example - if anyone wants to make a mesh for a well that isn't 'that' well out of every map etc. etc.


Slavering in anticipation of the BT-7 - where the hell did you find an animator?
 
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#100
Just played one close round as a Russian (first time as an Infanterist), it was a really close win, Russians had 0% left, Germans 29% (so Russians lost about 240 people, Germans more than 420). We were at the 2nd Line when Reinforcements became a real issue, some were willing to fall back, some stayed and thus delayed the Germans even more.
2 KVs also retreated backwards, first we fell back to AT Gun, but decided it would be easier to defend from the East Bank, and thus retreated farther to the East. From the East Bank we fought against the last Assault by the Germans, and held out till the Round expired.

Imho the fight on the 2nd Line is a bit too tough for the Germans, since the Russian Spawn is really very close to the Capzone...
 
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