• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

What if Germany won WW2......

Wolfstuka said:
its range is listed as with external fuel tanks so it cannot have triple the range as we dont know its real range without external tanks. The D9 has a higher loaded weight than p51
only a two thousand pound difference in max takeoff weight so no four times weight in armament. I dont know if D9 could fire rockets. The D9 didnt have as many kills because it was newer than mustang and there were not nearly as many D9s as p51s. The allies had the Luftwaffe whooped before the D9 could show its true power or have enough time to amass the kills that the p51 had. As for the p51 shooting down migs in korea the D9 had no chance to even do such a thing so that can't really compare.
The 51 was a great plane but the D9 was faster, had better manuverablity, a comparable bombload capacity, more powerful guns and something else but i have not read much in the way of ww2 aviation in a bit all i really remember is that the D9 would have brought hell to the allied airforce were it given a chance and the Luftwaffe destroyed so soon after its introduction.
basically they were about even with the D9 having a bit of an adavantage

Fw 190-D9: Power/mass: 0.30 - 0.35 kw/kg (0.18 - 0.21 hp/lb)
P51D: Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (300 W/kg)

Similar, slight edge P51. Power/weight is important, it's got a lot to do with rate of climb and acceleration.

Yep, the D9 had more powerful guns, but were they better? Eh, depends a bit on the pilot and the use the plane is being put to. 6 .50's are going to put more lead out for better deflection shots (read: good for killing other fighters, most ground targets, esp. troops and vehicles), but for point-blank stopping power, the 20mm cannon would be great (read: good for intercepting bombers or against harder ground targets.)

Also, the P51D's max speed is rated 11mph higher (not much, I'll grant) at about 5,000 feet higher altitude than the Fw190-D9? Faster?

Ya got him on ordinance... the P51D could only carry twice the ordinance, not quadruple.

The P51 was one of the most successful fighter designs ever.
 
Upvote 0
ok so if germany have win thx to a miracle :rolleyes::

Himmler would have assasinated hitler and took power with its ss,
(perhaps an internal war, but the ss are well know to make the things appeared like an accident).
France (dictatorship) with time would have certainly try to recapt his own territory (by force or agreement) while in the east a partisan war is still alive.
Staline is still alive (or his regime) but is with the rest of his country far on the east, he take the land over the japanese for his country.
So we see a new power ussr-china appeared.

USA is in need of new market and to end the frustration of having loose europe , and again and now, they decide total war after having beaten the japanese (full conscription, all the american citizen from 18 years o to 55 old are soldier) and push more sout america allies into war.
So atm the fully usa kick german ass thx to every internal ennemy of 3rd reich.
Perhaps they will choose asia or africa to attack.

So here the result : 3rd lost the war but some more years later ...
 
Upvote 0
All this comparison of individual weapons is a little silly, in my opinion. You can argue until the cows come home about which was the better submachine gun out of the thompson, mp-40, ppsh, and sten, but it has absolutely no bearing on the war. After all, the best victory is one in which you never have to fire a shot anyway.

No single weapon system was going to save Germany. As I said before, the shotgun "research everything" approach that the germans used probably accelerated their defeat if anything.

There are a couple of fundamental reasons that Germany would have had extreme difficulty winning the war, but the main one was:

There were no real strategic goals. Oh, sure, Hitler liked to talk about how they needed this resource, or that area, but there was no "Here's how we're going to win this war" strategy.

A panzer division is a cool toy, but if there's no plan for how to use it to end the war in your favor, it's not that valuable. Germany might have been better off with a few fewer panzer divisions and a few more u-boat flotillas.

The strategies followed by the allies may not have been correct, but at least they had a strategy.
 
Upvote 0
DingBat said:
There are a couple of fundamental reasons that Germany would have had extreme difficulty winning the war, but the main one was:

There were no real strategic goals. Oh, sure, Hitler liked to talk about how they needed this resource, or that area, but there was no "Here's how we're going to win this war" strategy.

A panzer division is a cool toy, but if there's no plan for how to use it to end the war in your favor, it's not that valuable. Germany might have been better off with a few fewer panzer divisions and a few more u-boat flotillas.

The strategies followed by the allies may not have been correct, but at least they had a strategy.

Very true, all of it.

I think it's fair to say Germany had more advanced weapons, but some of them were little more than diversions of good resources, such as the V-2, the super railroad guns, and the like. If Germany had focused its efforts better, it could have done better.

One key allied strategy -- essentially, using massive bombing to disrupt resupply and rearmament -- was almost effective. If you believe the Strategic Bombing Survey reports, the problem was that the bombing always stopped a little bit short.

We saw the same thing in the 1991 air attack on Iraq. Say a town has two heavy bridges crossing the same river. If you blow up one bridge, or 50 percent of the bridges in town, that's different than destroying 50 percent of the supply line. The supplies can still get through.

The allied strategic bombing -- when done in daylight -- knocked out a significant portion of electricity, a significant proportion of fuel processing, a significant proportion of manufacturing. Had any one of those categories been completely wiped out, Germany would have fallen far sooner.

World War II was primarily a war of manufacturing (much as, it's often ignored, the American Civil War). Once Russia lost a huge chunk of its land it decided it had to build new plants farther east, it was doing fine. Germany never quite made it to the oil fields it wanted, getting stuck in Stalingrad on the way. Here's where the German lack of strategy proved itself: Germany could have bypassed Stalingrad and pushed farther to the south, making a run for the oil fields. Hitler made it personal and lost the 6th Army and a bunch of allies in the process.
 
Upvote 0
I think Germany would of been better of if they produced 1 variant of one vehicle, as Russia or US. Standardize their tanks and the spare parts make it so much easier to mass produce and repair.

Imagine Germany mass producing the Panther or even the weaker PZ-IV with a 75mm gun. Instead of producing a dozen different tanks, they produce 1 standard tank through out all their facotries. Logisticly this would of been much easier.
 
Upvote 0
Alternative reality stories often lead to a kind of head**** if you think about them too hard. But, having said that, for two very different takes on the 'What if..?' question I would recommend to you the following novels:

'The Man in the High Castle' by Phillip K. Dick
'Making History' by Stephen Fry

Stephen Fry, despite being a smug git, writes a great story which raises a chilling solution to the question, "What would have happened if Hitler hadn't been born?"

His answer being that someone with exactly the same political views but who is more mentally stable and with less of a chip on his shoulder gets into power instead. America doesn't join WWII but coexists uneasily with a Nazi-occupied Europe and uses the state of semi-war to oppress its own citizens.
 
Upvote 0
I have to agree with DingBat. Part of the reason Germany lost the war was its lack of long term strategic thinking. Of course, it's not only that, but that certainly plays a large part of it.

1) As mentioned above, Germany (moreso Hitler) lacked the ability to iron out a long term strategic plan.

1a) Germany could have probably taken out England had it stuck to its guns and focused on English armament and military targets. Instead, to England's advantage, they changed their tactics to terror bombing cities.

i) As we all know, Germany quit focusing on England and turned its attention eastward.
ii) Realizing the superiority of the Spitfire very early on as well as finding out the hard way that it lacked the capabilities to escort its bomber fleet over English territory, Germany did little to solve these deficiencies.
iii) Germany had no long range heavy bomber throughout the war.
iv) If I'm not mistaken, Germany only had access to 87 octane (equivalent) fuel. This really limited Germany's internal combustion engine capabilities because the only way to improve the HP was to increase displacement, further increasing fuel consumption and weight. America and its allies had access to much higher octane fuel allowing for forced induction ala superchargers (higher octane = higher fuel stability at higher temperatures = you can pack more air into a cylinder ala forced induction without it detonating = more horsepower!).
v) Even if Germany had taken out England, it would have tied up a large chunk of the Wehrmacht simply occupying it, further decreasing its capabilities in waring in the east.

1b) Because of Hitler's lack of long term strategic planning as well as his dominating presense and distrust of the OKH, German Heer movements went about in ways that overextended its own capabilities. To paraphrase Erich von Manstein in his book Lost Victories, no one ever thought that the assault on Russia might take two campaigns instead of one.

2) The German Wehrmacht was not a "modern" army as many are lead to believe. They were way ahead of their time in terms of leadership, training, morale, and tactical prowess, but as far as equipment is concerned, most of their adversaries were actually technologically superior to them. Its command structure was, in fact, very good, but Hitler's mingling with military matters and the OKH nullified this, as seen with the invasion of Normandy and no one wanting to awaken "der Fuhrer" from his morning slumber.

2a) We often forget that the German Army was a very young army. Rearmnament of Germany began in 1935, and it plunged itself into a world war just four years later. Logistics, supply, and mobility of troop movements, the real bread and butter of a military war machine, was largely horse cart driven. Germany did have a good rail system (largely destroyed by 1944), but rail can only go where rail lines are laid. Germany did not have the automotive industry like the United States did to equip the logistics side of its army. In Bidderman's memoirs of his accounts on the eastern front, he makes special mention of this. He goes on to say that whenever German units came across American made trucks, they made exceptional use out of them. Germans loved Ford trucks. :) They were strong, reliable, and there were many spare parts available to fix them. Also, even if the Wehrmacht had been fully mechanized, Germany did not have the fuel supply to sustain it.

2b) I will refrain from going into much depth on this, as it's been mentioned time and time again in this thread, but Germany spent too much effort on side projects and "super weapons" that ultimately lead to nothing. By 1944, Germany didn't need improved tank designs. It simply needed more of them.

3) War in the east was inevitable. The idea of "labensraum" (sp?) was part of the core philosophy of Nazism, and Hitler made it very clear in his book Mein Kampf of his intentions for Germany to expand eastward. Because this ties directly in with the Great Patriotic War, I must mention a few things here as well:

3a) Fascism and Communism are ideological opposites. Even if Hitler hadn't planned to expand eastward, Russia and Germany would have clashed eventually regardless.

3b) A lot of people forget that the might of the Red Army of 1944/45 only got that way because of its blood, sweat, tears, and losses of the previous years. As the war progressed, the Russians began learning and using Germany's tactics against them, and even more ironic was the fact that Germany began copying Russia's use of tactics that ultimately lead to their agonizing defeats of 41/42! Personal opinion here, if Russia would have attacked first, it would have been a rehash of its invasion of Germany during 1914 - a complete debacle. Morale is always on the side of those who gets attacked first.

4) America's developement of the Atom bomb was originally planned for Germany. :)

So, uhh, on to the real subject of this topic, what would have happened if Germany had "won" the war? Even if Germany had won the war in the east, it would have bleed itself dry in doing so. Losses for the Wehrmact in the first month of the campaign in Russia were higher than they had been in the first two previous years of war. By the end of 1941, Germany had sustained over a million casualties, and it was forced to rely much more heavily on its allies for manpower (Bulgaria, Romania, and Italy), whose fighting effectiveness are often put in question (this is not a knock against these three nations - Manstein goes into rational detail as to why this was in his book, Lost Victories). Realistically, the war in Russia could have been won by 1943 had proper strategic planning been thought out prior to the invasion, but by this time, German losses would have been so high that its ability to reinforce a front against the United States would have been fairly limited. Not only that, Germany would have had to keep a large occupying force in Russia had the Soviets lost anyways. Even despite a homeland advantage, I don't see Germany holding its own against a sustained war against a nation with vastly superior industrial capabilities, population, and naval prowess like the United States. Remember, by winter 1944, the American army in Europe was larger than the Soviet's, and we were fighting on two fronts! Had Germany taken out England, however, the US would have never been able to invade Europe.

Then there is the internal power structure of the Nazi party...

All in all, even if Germany had "won" the war, it would have collapsed upon itself eventually. Over-extension of its territory, over-stretching its military capabilities, and lack of solid internal power structure would have eventually lead to its downfall, or worse, civil war.

(Sorry for the novel)

Sidenote - While the Sherman was an excellent tank in terms of mobility, ease of production, and reliability, its performance in Europe is the main reason the United States changed its armour doctrine after the war. Over half the German Panzers on the western front by the outset of the invasion of Normandy were Panthers, and while many were taken out by air, the American and British armour units just got downright mauled in tank vs tank combat. On another sidenote though, the Sherman was an absolute beast in the Pacific. :)
 
Upvote 0
A victorious Germany would mean a conquered/docile/puppet UK & USSR. Given that, I think there would have been a repeat of the Cold War between US & Third Reich, with an even greater emphasis on sea power & missile capability than was seen in the real Cold War (demarcation line being drawn in the Atlantic rather than thru the middle of Germany).
In this Cold War I don't see the same level of "bush wars" or wars by proxy occurring, as Nazism probably holds less value for "oppressed workers" than communism. So, probably no Vietnams, Cubas, Guatemalas, etc.
 
Upvote 0
BuddyLee said:
Yes we would, Germany could have fought to a stalemate, then declared victory.

No country on Earth could ever take the Continental US by force, not without nuking us all and making it impossible to inhabit.

Quote A.Lincoln:

"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.

I'm Polish. I and the Slavic race would not be here along with all other "inferiors".
 
Upvote 0