So smoke has been forced onto all the maps then

[Harry S. Truman]

Of course, they abviously used it in those combats, but not as frequently,decisively and with devastating effect as we have it modelled in RO.

So where is your source to make that claim? I know all German squads were issued smoke grenades, more so when fighting in urban areas. I know only certain Soviet ones were, usually engineer and assault units. Seeing that they were issued, they must have been used. Even if we consider that the battles in RO are just company sized. You'd be looking at a hell of a lot of smoke grenades available for use. Let's assume that each spawn of 16 men in the game represent two understrength squads. Let's also assume that each squad is only issued one smoke grenade (it could be more than that seeing that in most case we are talking about urban combat). That would mean that during the course of one RO battle we'd have multiple squads involved, each using their own smoke grenade. 10 or 12 smoke grenades utilized per side during one RO combat wouild not be unheard of and would probably be a somewhat conservative number.

 

[Coey]

Instead of been a smart arse why didnt you think before you posted? Jesus anyone who has played since the patch knows how easy it is to attack and win a map now. [SIZE=-1]This rant is not just intended for you but for others that think like you. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]If you played the game properly then you would think differently.[/SIZE]

As for your comment, the way to counter tactics is in good squad [SIZE=-1]Coordination and discipline. The squad groups up around the objective, sniper shoots out MG hotspots and enemy sniper. SMG provide close range cover to allies doing their job, its about sending the right people in the right area, moving in sync with the reast of the team while keeping comms clear and concise. It works for us and after alot of hard work it pays off. This is what makes RO special, the reward after the hard training we put in and seeing our plan pull off. Same with defence. Now all you have to do is lob 2 smokes in the objective, rush in, lob a few nades and let the SMG's tear the place up. If we wanted this style of arcadeness and im sure this applies to most people playing RO they would just play DoD or CoD2?

Cant you see it turns the game into arcade run and gun. Its not tactical, not on maps with objectives so small. Whats so tactical about throwing 2 smoke nades in a area smaller than your bathroom? RO is supposed to be tactical, its hardcore and its bloody hard work but thats why we play it. Ive been playing most of this evening on our server and the urban maps were just a joke, i took commander and spammed the areas we was attacking with smoke nades, it was ridiculous, it made defence impossible for the allied team.

Please TW sort this out.
[/SIZE]

Adapt or die. It's that simple.

Maybe try defending the objectives while thinking outside of the box? Hiding small groups of players to come out and attack the attacking forces rear? Grenades could be quite usefull here aswell. Players are just instantly thinking that because you can't see where the enemy is therefore you can't kill him. A good few MG burts, coupled with a nade volley should make players think twice about charging into that smoke.

 

[Dcode]

Adapt or die. It's that simple.

Maybe try defending the objectives while thinking outside of the box? Hiding small groups of players to come out and attack the attacking forces rear? Grenades could be quite usefull here aswell. Players are just instantly thinking that because you can't see where the enemy is therefore you can't kill him. A good few MG burts, coupled with a nade volley should make players think twice about charging into that smoke.

This is my point, the riflers, MG's and Sniper become uselss. So why bother selecting the class at all? Its all about the SMGs and nades.

 

[Lionel-RIchie]

Whoa, did you just say MG'ers are useless in smoke situations?

 

[Harry S. Truman]

As for your comment, the way to counter tactics is in good squad [SIZE=-1]Coordination and discipline. The squad groups up around the objective, sniper shoots out MG hotspots and enemy sniper. SMG provide close range cover to allies doing their job, its about sending the right people in the right area, moving in sync with the reast of the team while keeping comms clear and concise. It works for us and after alot of hard work it pays off. This is what makes RO special, the reward after the hard training we put in and seeing our plan pull off. Same with defence. Now all you have to do is lob 2 smokes in the objective, rush in, lob a few nades and let the SMG's tear the place up. If we wanted this style of arcadeness and im sure this applies to most people playing RO they would just play DoD or CoD2?

Cant you see it turns the game into arcade run and gun. Its not tactical, not on maps with objectives so small. Whats so tactical about throwing 2 smoke nades in a area smaller than your bathroom? RO is supposed to be tactical, its hardcore and its bloody hard work but thats why we play it. Ive been playing most of this evening on our server and the urban maps were just a joke, i took commander and spammed the areas we was attacking with smoke nades, it was ridiculous, it made defence impossible for the allied team.

Please TW sort this out.
[/SIZE]

Wow, I have to object here. I'll give you a prime example. Last night I was playing Odessa as a German machine gunner with an MG42. (My Favorite!)

I was on the far corner of the HQ and the Russians were having no luck getting past my machine gun. Next thing I know a smoke grenade plops down right in front of my position. I didn't panic. I dispersed. I pulled up my MG. Tossed a grenade into the smoke and redeployed 20 meters back and set up my gun.

The grenade went off in the smoke and killed one Russian. Two more come running up to my PREVIOUS position tossing grenades and spraying the hell out of it. I promptly mowed them down from their left flank.

I'll let the story speak for itself....

 

[Coey]

This is my point, the riflers, MG's and Sniper become uselss. So why bother selecting the class at all? Its all about the SMGs and nades.

I can see what you mean, and I thank you for doing so in a polite manner. But I disagree with what your saying about smoke grenades.

MGs can fire into the smoke across the area the enemy needs to cross. Riflemen can hang around on the sides and pick off anyone they see. Snipers still have their old role. You can't smoke a whole map. Basically SMGs and nades still have the same role they had pre-smoke, they are the tools you need to clear out the enemy, wherever he is.

 

[Nixon]

This is my point, the riflers, MG's and Sniper become uselss. So why bother selecting the class at all? Its all about the SMGs and nades.

Well, urban combat usually is about handgrenades first, SMG/AR

 

[Dcode]

I can see what you mean, and I thank you for doing so in a polite manner. But I disagree with what your saying about smoke grenades.

MGs can fire into the smoke across the area the enemy needs to cross. Riflemen can hang around on the sides and pick off anyone they see. Snipers still have their old role. You can't smoke a whole map. Basically SMGs and nades still have the same role they had pre-smoke, they are the tools you need to clear out the enemy, wherever he is.

Yeah that would work in a map large enough such as Kongisplatz, infact i welcome the smoke grenades on such maps. But take maps such as Krasnyi, Odessa, Stalingrad Kessel with small objectives, Garage, Cons hall, Warehouse, Assembly hall, Tower and Square can all be flooded with smoke. You cant find a decent spot to rifle or MG from becuase the smoke throws you into extreme CQ in which the nades fly and the SMG's dominate. It kills the flow of the map.

I welcome anyone to our server to demonstrate the over effectiveness when attacking using smokes.

 

[Munkie]

I also agree the smokenades are overdone. I like the smoke nades. I'm very interested in their potential for new tactics and such. But they just don't belong on every map with that much frequency. Small maps like Krasnyi and others are just too unsuited for smokes. I played Warsaw today with dcode and other veterans. The whole map was filled with smoke from end to end. It completely destroyed any kind of gameflow and made defense impossible.

The average life time of a player (like a commander) is about 90 seconds. Smoke nades last like 4-5 mins? If each of the commanders tosses two nades everytime he spawns that's a lot of smoke.

And for those who are saying we're too lazy to adapt and l33t players can't own anymore, etc, it's not about that. Veterans are not worried about losing their edge. Whether we like it or not we will adapt. But even then, it still doesn't change the fact the classic RO gameflow is gone and overall the game is not fun or challenging as it used to be.

Let me say again that I welcome the smoke nades. I think there's a lot of potential here and the game can still be great and even better than ever before. But the way it is implemented right now is extremely flawed.

 

[Lonyo]

I am not happy that existing maps have been railroaded into having smoke on them.

Odessa becomes very Soviet-friendly indeed, I'm guessing Basovka goes the opposite direction.

I think that, with the release of Lyes krovi, smoke shoulda been there in the toolbox, not automatically forced on all maps.

BTW Lyes Krovi is a great map - I often wondered what an SMG comapny in action would be like and now I know.

I am 100% positive that the impact on existing maps would have been VERY carefully considered, and they would not have shoehorned in a new feature that would unbalance existing maps. Because that would not make sense.
New gameplay elements have to be carefully thoughtout and:

a practical plan for implementation and how gameplay and level design would need to be redesigend to accomadate (sic) it"

would have been devised.
So it should work perfectly fine with the existing maps.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

some people seem to forget ... "smoke grenades, work both ways" ...


i played some ours now, with all this smoke, on krasny, odessa and kessel, we had not major advantages or problems with it when the teams have been with sonme "good" players around.

You seem to forget how objectives get captured in this game and why battles lost.
cause
1. You are not enough OR the enemy is to much in the area that has to be captured (what ever you like more )
2. you just run out of reinforcements. Simple.

the first one, can very easy be avoided, smoke or not. Just stay in the objectives. If the smoke is not there, people use there grenades like there woud be no tomorrow, with the smoke they do that as well, where is here the difference ? As Mg guner, i havnt noticed realy.So i dont konw whatzs the talking about nadespaming the "smoke" areas ... people will use the grenades all the time, regardless what is in there.

As sniper, alright, you have probably a problem to hit the "small" soldiers behind the cover now, but rember, whatz the task of a real sniper on the battlefield (i know, i know, what we have are in real, only some kind of marksmen or so ... ), exactly, not to go for the footsoldier, but for mainly enemy snipers (which usualy are NOT in the smoke) and ... guess what killing the enemy officer! This with smoke, now has even become more important. On maps with large areas, we had to capture a deffence line, i had a hard time to use the smoke realy probably, cause i got pined down by there sniper, and i was the only commander ... its not that easy, when the oposite team please realy good. But as soon we got near the bunkers, the nades i used have become very usefull! AND thats what makes it good and realistic.

They give you a chance to survive on the battlefield! It is to be expected like in real, some tell here about tactic and how trained there team is, smoke usualy can bring a chaos inside well trained troops, what some here described just show it, how realistic it can realy be. Think about a real combat situation, your team, all in line, defence, well trained, evryone in the positon he has to be ... and now think about that from one second to another you cant see further then 5m, maybe even less, enemies coming now from all sides, thats usual part of war, specialy, as some already here stated in urban combat. German and Russian positions have been stormed that way often.

Of course, it becomes a bit ridiculous when a small psotion gets stormed with 2-4 smoke grenades, and it is sometimes a bit strange on odessa, cause you spawn there and get back in action with the nades very fast. But that never bothers me that far, to destroy the feel from all, that your tactic, as great as it may be, can be destroyed that way, makes it even more exciting! So far, i had not problem to defend tower with smoke, when the team was good, and i had not problems to storm it, when the team, again, was "good".

as schneidzekk (i guess it was he) already told very nice, to quote him here.

(...)
Using smoke nades with skill makes or breakes a game, like any other weapon.

the most dangerous thing on the field, is not the weapon, but your brain (for your self also) !

 

[Harry S. Truman]

The average life time of a player (like a commander) is about 90 seconds. Smoke nades last like 4-5 mins? If each of the commanders tosses two nades everytime he spawns that's a lot of smoke.

4-5 minutes? Are we playing the same game? I used a stopwatch. They last almost exactly 30 seconds from first puff to dispersment. They cover an area about 3 meters across. Which, by the way is almost perfect as that about what a real smoke grenade would do. There's no way a commander could cover the entire map and no way his grenades are still smoking before he returns. I smell another overreaction....

 

[Phoenix-D]

4-5 minutes? Are we playing the same game? I used a stopwatch. They last almost exactly 30 seconds from first puff to dispersment. They cover an area about 3 meters across. Which, by the way is almost perfect as that about what a real smoke grenade would do. There's no way a commander could cover the entire map and no way his grenades are still smoking before he returns. Another overreaction....

When I was assaulting the Courtyard on Kaukasas, I would very frequently throw smoke, run past, die a little later on, then come back to find the first grenade still smoking.

 

[Droog]

It's a little bit over 50 sec

 

[Munkie]

4-5 minutes? Are we playing the same game? I used a stopwatch. They last almost exactly 30 seconds from first puff to dispersment. They cover an area about 3 meters across. Which, by the way is almost perfect as that about what a real smoke grenade would do. There's no way a commander could cover the entire map and no way his grenades are still smoking before he returns. I smell another overreaction....

Ok maybe not 4-5 min. I wasn't timing it. They cover several times more area than just 3 meters. But it's not the size or the length of time the smokes cover I was complaining about, it's that there are too many of them. And yes, just about the entire maps of Warsaw and Krasnyi were flooded with smoke including some parts of spawn.

How is merely suggesting to limit smoke nades an overreaction? Did I mention I was excited and looking forward to using them properly?

 

[MtnMan01]

:And I'll say again, it shouldn't be hard to put togeather a no smoke mutator with ease. I am actually seeing if we can put togeather an official no smoke mutator for you guys if nobody else does.

A great idea,also a mutator to limit smokies to say 2 a round.Smoke is needed on some maps.1 thats need 2(max)smoke is Basovka,with a good russian team defending with arty it is next to impossable to take AT trench and the push to Train Station.They have arty while Germans have none prior to AT cap.

Certain maps do not need smoke at all or limit them to 1 smoke per round.Krasnyi can be a ***** for Germans to break out of spawn with a well organized Russian team thats pushed up against the spawn exit points at petrol n main yard.1 smoke well placed will give the Germans a good chance to get out of spawn exits and get organized but still be tough to get the caps.

Maps with open areas need smoke,but again a max of "2" per round.Commanders need to know when and where to place smoke no to just fling them willie nillie.

Smoke like MG's,snipers,nades need some thinking to be used to your and the teams advantage.
It will take some time to get used to the different tactics now with the new smoke,but with some tactical thinking a good team with good Teamwork it will only prove that they are good in most/all situations.

"""Limit smoke to max 2(per round) on some maps,1 on other maps(odessa)and finally 0 on others.As i dont play on Tank maps tankers will have to say what they think but i would think that would be a good advantage in open terrain"""

Just my .02 worth

----been playin since Mod days,,

 

[Lonyo]

When I was assaulting the Courtyard on Kaukasas, I would very frequently throw smoke, run past, die a little later on, then come back to find the first grenade still smoking.

Yup, I just played Krasnyi. Every time I died, I would respawn and my old smokes would still be there, and I could throw 2 more. Rinse and repeat.
Capping now means:
1.Spawn
2.Throw smoke grenades.
3.Move into cap zone.
4.Wait for cap to finish
5.If: Death: Goto 1 | Else: Move to next cap zone and wait for death, then Goto: 1

 

[krylosz]

The average life time of a player (like a commander) is about 90 seconds. Smoke nades last like 4-5 mins? If each of the commanders tosses two nades everytime he spawns that's a lot of smoke.

Just for the record. I just fired up practice mode and timed the smoke nades, and the smoke stays for just 45 seconds.

 

[Sichartshofen]

My god, it's only smoke! Not some unpenetrable shield. OMG you may just have to change tactics, like in real war. Fire into the smoke with machineguns and SMG's, throw grenades or call in artillery. Adapt and over come, bitching about it on the forums won't solve anything and you may just get banned for being such a twat.

Did the Germans go and ***** to the Geneva convention when they found their 37mm and 50mm guns were useless againsts the new Soviet tanks? No! They brought up 88's, up gunned their tanks and used all kinds of infantry anti-tank weapons.

 

[Droog]

Adapt and over come, bitching about it on the forums won't solve anything

Tripwire is not EA. They listen.