Level Design New Possible Balance for Orel

[Heinz]

Meh, there's nothing wrong with changing the freaking load-outs! You can do that through a mutator!

He did everyone a favour. If you don't like it, don't play it. When the author comes back and has time to fix the loadouts issues, then the altered map can be removed from all servers.

I like the alternative version, it's much much better.

agreed. the original mapper seems like a cool guy. I even asked him if he'd mind letting someone else work on it, if he had anyone in mind, before he left for China. I think he left before he had a chance to respond.

check out all the jerks coming out of the woodwork to criticize! probably the same ass hats that think the tank allotments on the stock maps are fair!

 

[aceto]

yep. you guys have a great behavior.

...jerks...ass hats...

...piss off trolls...

and thats why you dont mind about changing someones intellectual property.

great attitute btw.

 

[Heinz]

Hi!

do you need a tissue? I can get you one if you need one. just let me know.

 

[1.AR[GSC]=[ENIGMA]=]

yep. you guys have a great behavior.




and thats why you dont mind about changing someones intellectual property.

great attitute btw.

How many mp3s do you have on your hard drive? Say zero and you know what you are...so much for respecting someone elses intellectual property.

 

[Rameusb5]

IMHO, 2 Tigers are simply too much on that map. Once the Germans own the heights, and blow the bridges, the Russians would be screwed.

1 Tiger can be artilleried. 2? No.

If the bridges weren't all destroyable (except one), it might not be a problem. The the way the current map is set up, 2 Tigers vs the Russian 76mm gun (no matter what tank it's on) would be a horror show.

 

[DeV]

How many mp3s do you have on your hard drive? Say zero and you know what you are...so much for respecting someone elses intellectual property.

Do I modify those? No I listen to them, equal to playing a map instead of modifying. And I seriously start to doubt about what the mapping community of this game is becoming. Anyway, I'm sick of trying to put effort in making people realize what they're doing, because its a waste of time. I can spend my time in a better way.

 

[Heinz]

IMHO, 2 Tigers are simply too much on that map. Once the Germans own the heights, and blow the bridges, the Russians would be screwed.

1 Tiger can be artilleried. 2? No.

If the bridges weren't all destroyable (except one), it might not be a problem. The the way the current map is set up, 2 Tigers vs the Russian 76mm gun (no matter what tank it's on) would be a horror show.

you have a point about the bridges. last night as russians, I'd swear our own guys blew ours up! doh!!

 

[Ron]

Right i played ro-orel 88vs 76 or whatever it is and i have to say its miles miles better the germans actually have a chance plus its cool to take on the tiger knowing you have to outsmart him to win. The soviets still won the match i played so it hasnt screwed the balance.

 

[Witzig]

Right i played ro-orel 88vs 76 or whatever it is and i have to say its miles miles better the germans actually have a chance plus its cool to take on the tiger knowing you have to outsmart him to win. The soviets still won the match i played so it hasnt screwed the balance.

Well i wonder how you play that you don't have a Chance with 2 Panthers against T34/85s...

 

[GS_Schimpf]

It's not that big of a problem! keep the tigers behind and angled and with a little support from other tanks its quite easy to kill the russian masses.

It's just that little bit of teamplay that makes the difference. Same goes for russian side.

 

[HotDang]

Don't forget about giving Kauk at least 2 tigers..
Eitherway, to get this on a legal base:

For something to get authoring rights, it needs one thing. Originality. Authoring rights come into play at the same time the object is created, in this case the map. To multiply or edit someones work you would need his permission to do so, something you don't have. No matter what little change, even if you toned the lighting brightness down from 128 to 127, you'd be doing something illegal. The only way you are allowed to do this is for personal use, and since your making this public, thats not the case.

Odd. I run a CSS server. I run maps made by Valve and by the public. I change which weapons are available, max players, how much gravity there is and so forth. Literally 100's of servers are doing the same thing. Although it isn't actually changing the map, isn't it effectively just doing the same thing; changing the playing experience from that which the author intended to that which you find more preferable?

 

[DeV]

Well, I think the difference is that, like you said, 100's of servers do it, so it's generally accepted to do so in CSS by both the mappers and the community. A lot of the mappers in this community feel different about the issue, so I guess that's why it's such a big point for them.

 

[Monkwarrior]

I played the changed version last night and had a great time.
The map seems balanced (both the original & the modded version).
Guess I need to learn how to tank, because I never had a chance against that tiger. Next time I'll try to flank him with my T34-carbord-tank

Monk.

 

[Ron]

Well i wonder how you play that you don't have a Chance with 2 Panthers against T34/85s...

Of course i know the panther's are beasts but the problem is they cant be every where and anywhere the panthers arent the soviets normally win with the superiour 85's vs panzers and stugs. Man im a soviet tanker and let me tell i've played the original orel loads of times and the axis never came even close however with the new load outs while i havent seen the axis win yet but they certainly have come much closer.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

My opinion;

A custom map is a work or art. Its made up of artwork, imagination and historical values. Most important, is the imagination portion.

Imagination is what brings the custom map to life. This is the creative abilities of the map's author. This is what makes the map original. Its the actual flavor, gameplay and flow the author bestows upon the map.

It all belongs solely to the author of the map. Not a critic, Not a player and certainly not a Server Admin.

Now, if... an original author grants permission to anyone to make changes, the only way these changes can be released into the community with any semblance of order is to give the original author the changes to incorporate into HIS map.

If this is not done, then the resulting chaos of dozens different versions of "bastardized" maps looms large in the future.

Just imagine if everyone decided to jerk around with other people's maps. It will ultimately KILL the entire RO platform.

There are correct, respectful solutions;

• Create a mutator to facilitate modification of map loadouts etc.. A mutator that can do so for any maps.
• Obtain permission to make the modifications to a map, submit the modifications to the owner/author for possible inclusion.

To simply barge into someone's map and make changes - then release the changed map upon the entire community is wrong. Regardless of how well intentioned the effort is thought to be.

Please, realize that the original creator/owner of the map Orel has rights. They must be recognized and respected. It is really a very simple matter of respecting each other's rights of creative ownership. This must never be violated. Not for any reason. Truly, by respecting this value of creative ownership (copyright) we protect each other and the integrity of the Red Orchestra platform.

If this sort of activity is allowed to persist, then nothing is safe or sacred.

 

[kabex]

^^ I disagree.

If someone hadn't changed the loadouts, I would have downloaded the SDK and done it myself.

What are you going to do? Put me in jail? Is the mapper going to cry all over the message board?

No.

 

[DeV]

Some people here have seriously no idea of moral values.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

^^ I disagree.

If someone hadn't changed the loadouts, I would have downloaded the SDK and done it myself.

What are you going to do? Put me in jail? Is the mapper going to cry all over the message board?

No.

I doubt that there would be any seriously legal repercussions, but I'd think that among the sane, respectful RO users there'd be a great deal of dissatisfaction with anyone attempting to edit, modify, desecrate or simply rip-off the work of a sincere mapper.

To make certain I fully understand what you are saying, you feel its perfectly OK to edit another mapper's work without permission to do so? Do you realize just how WRONG that really is? I can see that if this concept of yours were to gain widespread acceptance, the RO platform would have dozens of "bastardized" maps and total chaos among mappers.

If ever, those of us who elect to disregard the rights of others are in the majority, then this entire matter is already closed and the RO platform is in dire jeopardy. I know of no responsible mapper who would subscribe to such an outrageous concept. In fact, I'd expect the REAL mappers would either express their total dissatisfaction with such a concept or begin to include a readme with a copyright notice with each and every map created.

To to do the right thing you must either;

• Create a mutator to facilitate modification of map loadouts etc.. A mutator that can do so for any maps.

OR.....

• Obtain permission to make the modifications to a map, submit the modifications to the owner/author for possible inclusion.

Any other approach is begging for disaster. If we do not respect the rights of the mappers, modders, etc.. We've lost it all.

 

[DeV]

I think most of the people you call real mappers have already responded in such fashion.

 

[Nestor Makhno]

Quite apart from the moral aspects of this whole issue there is a simple practical matter.

If someone goes around releasing a map which has the same name that will play merry hell on people's downloading - they will continuously have to download whichever version with the name happens to be on the server they enter and overwrite the existing version.

Even if you alter the name slightly people are expecting a certain map by a certain person and a particular style of play. The use of a name already associated with the original could be seen as misrepresentation.

I am not surprised that all these issues came out and have been trying to avoid posting on this matter in case it seems like sour grapes but here goes:

• The map touched a nerve with the community - love it or hate it there was clearly a desperate need for a map like this. Hats off to SlashBot for recognising that need and making a map to meet it.
• The map was rushed off (I'd guess it took less than a fortnight by the look of it) and released quickly without any real gameplay testing or terrain bugfixes (I also think it was released without the rider that it was a beta)
• The mapper isn't around to address any of the issues that have been raised.

Given all those things it's not surprising if people try to polish the map but I think they really shouldn't for simple reasons - version control, centralised vision of the map and sheer simple respect for the creator.

By the time Slashbot is back the fuss will have mostly died down, people will have got bored and moved to other maps, he can read all the posts that his map has caused with some satisfaction (I would guess) then maybe, if he feels like it, go ahead and create a proper beta of the map, get some feedback and release a final version of his own.