Still tip-of-head point of view. Why?

[Rameusb5]

Sorry for the bump, but I just had to post this:

No pixels at all, and the soldier has plenty of room under his sights. In this case you would see his gun sticking through the bath tub, but with something a bit thicker giving protection there would be no indication whatsoever!

I'm not sure that the third person camera view is a reliable way of determining what OTHER players will see.

What we really need is for TWO different players to take screenshots. The first is exactly like your first picture. The second is from the front, using the second player's POV.

Then we'll know EXACTLY what we're looking at.

(not to poopoo on your efforts, though. Nice work)

 

[Varsity]

I'm not sure that the third person camera view is a reliable way of determining what OTHER players will see.

I'm not so sure. How much is there to go wrong? My soldier's body was touching the bottom of the bath as normal, and it's not like there are different 3rd person animations.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

i have seen a weird bug, on Entweichen, with all the pistols and ****.. this german held his pistol in front of his head, with the looking through binocular animation XD it looked like he was retarded and didnt know how to handle a weapon

 

[fOgGy]

First of all, lets just get this out of the way: I'm not bitching, I simply want to turn a great game into a --hopefully-- masterpiece. The community in general has high standards, and that is a good thing.

Okay, so what do I mean in the title? Well I've talked about this in the old forums in regards to the mod, which also had it, but I don't remember the conclusion. To be specific, you are NOT looking through your avatars (soldiers) eyes. Rather, you are looking through the top-TIP of the helmet. How do I know this? Simple, I play the game and I notice instances where I'm getting shot at by a few pixels, even though in real life you would need to expose your head AT LEAST to fire your weapon.

You probably have, or definitely will, run into occassions where you can't see ANY part of the enemy except a couple of pixels, but the enemy can see you entirely through those pixels, and you get killed by him through a severe disadvantage. I've noticed that in the prone position this is especially true.

Like I said, a soldier should have to reveal his head at least to make a shot using iron sight. What do you guys think?

1)Why is this the norm for most, if not all, FPS's?

2)Is there something technically wrong with putting the FOV at eye level?

Yes I do feel this is becoming a serious issue that the devs might have to address this into account maybe later. I always often wondered why I get killed so easily everytime I'm hiding in crouched position and my eye level is looking right underneath from behind the sandbags just because of a few pixels actually leaning out in the 3rd person view.

 

[Rameusb5]

I figured as much.

I figured as much.

Well, I finally broke down and installed RO on my second computer so I could run two accounts at once and test to see if this issue is real or not.

Guess what? It's not (sort of).


Here are some screenshots (which I'll link to rather than post here because I want to keep them large so you can see EXACTLY what I'm talking about).

PIC 1

In this first image, I have a German soldier hiding behind some sandbags. I've moved him so that he's as covered up as possible from his POV (which is the image on the left). The image on the right is what the Russian soldier sees. As you can plainly see, the German soldier is in plain view.

Just to make sure, I crouched the Russain player down, just to see if that made any difference. Here's the result:

PIC 2

Again, he is VERY plainly in view.


In the next image, I had the German soldier COMPLETELY behind the sandbags, just to see if there was a "POV too low" issue. As you can see, only his rifle clipping through the sandbags is visible.

PIC 3

So, again, no problem with the POV.

In this next pic, I put the Russian soldier prone in a crater and moved the German soldier so that only the Russian's head is visible. As you can see, each can only see the other's head, which is correct. Again, no weirdness.

PIC 6
Finally, I stood the Russian really far away from the German (who I hid behind some sandbags). If you look very closely, you can see the Russian standing just above the German's sights in the left pic. On the right (with binos), the Russian can CLEARLY see the German soldier's whole head.

PIC 8



So it's VERY clear that the POV for these soldier's is NOT the tip of the helmet as everyone has been claiming. So we can stop spreading that rumor right now. But that's not to say that there aren't issues. Look at this next pic. On the left, the Russian is hiding behind some railroad ties so that he is barely peaking over them (he's prone), and his rifle is pointing directly at the German.

PIC 7

But on the right, the German soldier can plainly see the Russian, who's rifle is pointing WAY up into the air, and who's exposed all the way down to his chest. So in this particular case, the Russian is MORE exposed than he should be, which leads to the exact OPPOSITE problem that people have been saying.


Finally, I did notice some oddness with the lean function. In this next pic, the German soldier is leaning to the left to peak around some sandbags to see the Russian (who's in plain view).

PIC 4

Now look at the Russian's POV. The German is barely visible. So this lead me to do another test.

In this final pic, the German is peaking around the corner of a wall (he is prone). The russian isn't visible in this pic because I hadn't moved him up yet. But it's clear that the German could see anybody who's laying on the right side of that wall.

Now check out the Russian's point of view (the pic on the right):

PIC 5

As you can see, the German player is BARELY visible at all. (His hands are in the way, otherwise you could see the tip of his helmet).



So there IS a problem with the POV, but ONLY when it concerns LEANING. In the case of leaning (at least with the German Semi-auto guy), the 1st person POV is leaning out (to the right or left) a bit more than the 3rd person model is, which would allow you to basically see people who can't see you.


I'm hoping this testing will accomplish 2 things:

1. Teach the community that in the future you should TEST any bugs you think might be in the game before complaining about them.

And

2. Get the Dev's attention to look at the 1st person POV for leaning and perhaps bring it "in" a little (or have the model move out a little).

 

[{WP}Paas]

So, the problem is there... yet it's only when you're leaning? Also, I haven't done test quite as detailed as you have, but when playing against friends they have noticed that only my helmet is visible while I'm returning fire from a trench, or even over sandbags in some situations.

Could it be a latency/servers issue/bug? I really don't know, but from my actual in game experience I can say firmly that sometimes the enemy does return fire from either "through" sandbags, or from the "tip" of their skull. Maybe it's a bug that shifts the perspective a little when certain movements are made?

Speculation aside, the Devs do need to look into it the issue.

{WP}Paas

 

[Dheepan]

Yeah I've noticed this as well. ESPECIALLY in leaning you usally barely expose yourself from the other players POV. Actually if you look at the loading screen where it shows German soldiers defending the REichstag you'll notice that the crouched german who is not visible from our POV is actually shooting an stg or something because you can see the muzzle flash from the middle of the sandbag.

 

[Rameusb5]

So, the problem is there... yet it's only when you're leaning? Also, I haven't done test quite as detailed as you have, but when playing against friends they have noticed that only my helmet is visible while I'm returning fire from a trench, or even over sandbags in some situations.

Could it be a latency/servers issue/bug? I really don't know, but from my actual in game experience I can say firmly that sometimes the enemy does return fire from either "through" sandbags, or from the "tip" of their skull. Maybe it's a bug that shifts the perspective a little when certain movements are made?

Speculation aside, the Devs do need to look into it the issue.

{WP}Paas

It's not a "tip of the skull" issue. It's an issue with the 1st person POV shifting farther right or left than the actual model leans.

I'm willing to entertain the idea that the tip of the skull issue exists in certain situations, but NOT on anectdotal evidence. Post screenies. During the action of a battle (and at the typical engagement ranges), it is difficult to know exactly what is going on. Certainly, you don't know what the OTHER player is seeing.

The ONLY way to prove that this issue exists is to show examples from BOTH players POV, where one player can see the other, but the other player cannot. I was unable to find a way to make this happen in the verticle. Leaning, definately, but not simply hiding behind sandbags.

 

[SgtH3nry3]

Please Tripwire Interactive add body awareness!

 

[Murphy]

I'm not sure that the third person camera view is a reliable way of determining what OTHER players will see.

Your third person model is the same as other players would see.

A problem with bodyawareness is, that you would have to sacrifice weapondetail to implement it.
As it is now, you have two different models for the weapons. One is seen from the other players on your model. That

 

[Dheepan]

This is what I meant

 

[{WP}Paas]

It's not a "tip of the skull" issue. It's an issue with the 1st person POV shifting farther right or left than the actual model leans.

I'm willing to entertain the idea that the tip of the skull issue exists in certain situations, but NOT on anectdotal evidence. Post screenies.

I will work on some "screenies". I hate trying to get screenies, but, I will do it simply because I feel strongly about the issue.

{WP}Paas

Update:

Well, turns out the "screenshot" button isn't "PrntScrn". So! Still gathering screenies. Should have some up tommorow somtime. We found out that for the most part Rameusb is right, you're mostly screwed against an leaning opponet. Yet, there are some instances where, when you don't rest your weapon, you're a firing skull.

...just wait on the screenshots to get an idea of what I am talking about. Tommorow. Seriously.

 

[Rameusb5]

Your third person model is the same as other players would see...

I don't believe this is true.

My testing, in fact, would lead one to believe that it isn't true, since every time one player rested his gun on something, his head could easily be seen by the enemy.

Could you please provide me with the command to switch to the external camera so I can test this tonight?

Dheepan's pic is interesting, but since we don't know what the actual shooter is seeing, we can't say that it's wrong. It's also possible that there's a hole in the sandbags there, through which he can see/shoot. I'll specifically load up Koenigplatz tonight and check out that exact area.


I'd like to be clear that I don't have an agenda here. I didn't do my testing to prove that this isn't an issue. In fact, I did it to prove that it IS an issue. But my testing results lead me to a different conclusion.

 

[kabex]

The assumption that body awareness(Operation Flashpoint style first person view) is "ugly" is complete bull.

Look at the screenshots of Armed Assault, OFP's sequel. The models, animations, etc all look GORGEOUS.

 

[Zell]

They were ugly in OFP though. That's just because the game is old and the animations were sub-par to make up for the game's huge size with that dated engine. That's not to say it can't look good. Take the Riddick game, for example. That has first person awareness and looks great.

 

[sappo]

Yes, but the modders who work on the OFP engine have made spectacular models...

 

[Murphy]

They were ugly in OFP though. That's just because the game is old and the animations were sub-par to make up for the game's huge size with that dated engine. That's not to say it can't look good. Take the Riddick game, for example. That has first person awareness and looks great.

That

 

[kabex]

Armed Assault looks great indeed, but it has to be rendered by something. The movie King Kong looks even better, but I doubt that your computer could render that in real time.

That doesn't make any sense. ArmA will run just fine in modern systems, and people have playtested it already(there are some press demos out).

By the way, if you had downloaded any OFP mods, some of the guns are BEAUTIFUL, seriously. They might not have very good animations but the game is 5 years old!

There is nothing wrong with true first person view, and if you care THAT much about graphics go play Call Of Duty 2 please. It only makes sense to have true first person view in Red Orchestra, an otherwise highly realistic game.

OFP has done everything better than any other "realistic" fps in the history of gaming, even if it's dated(it came out in 2001!) so please make sure you know what you're talking about before you go "lololo operation flashpoint is ugly!!!".

 

[Conscript]

Yes the true first person system in OFP is better. But I don't think we should take such a massive backward step in terms of asthetics. The weapon models and ironsight details in RO are superb. I, personally, don't really want to sacifice that. To me, their detail and looks are part of the realism factor. That clearly does not make me eligible to play only COD2 though.

If we could do it and maintain high detail though, then I say go for it.

I hate the way everyone dismisses people who dare to be slightly critical of RO with shouts of "Go back to CoD2, lolololo1l1ol".

Grow up.

 

[kabex]

Yes the true first person system in OFP is better. But I don't think we should take such a massive backward step in terms of asthetics. The weapon models and ironsight details in RO are superb. I, personally, don't really want to sacifice that. To me, their detail and looks are part of the realism factor. That clearly does not make me eligible to play only COD2 though.

If we could do it and maintain high detail though, then I say go for it.

I hate the way everyone dismisses people who dare to be slightly critical of RO with shouts of "Go back to CoD2, lolololo1l1ol".

Grow up.

Whoever advocates graphics over gameplay needs to grow up or go play pretty pretty games, IMO.

Whatever.